The AM Forum

Hello Friends,
As luck would have it, I found a full-time job paying a whopping $10/hr. Not bad for Western Pa. I love the work. Repairing anything that can make or recieve RF. Portables, mobiles, base stations, pagers. Kenwood commercial commo equipment and some of the high priced spread from Motorola.
Vehicle useage is around 320 mi every 5 days WORK and INCLUDING family needs and chores. Vehicle getting around 27MPG. $48/fillup @ $4.00/ Gal as of May 22, '08
After Taxes I estimate clearing $320.00/Wk
Looks like I'll spend about $320/mo for fuel. When should I pull the switch on the job??? I'm tempted to put a "carpool ad" in the local paper and give someone a lift to their work, provided we're travelling in the same direction for work and return home.
If this craziness continues $4.50/Gal?????, we'll have to cancel other plans for travel and renting a vehicle, figuring on the high side of 5 tanks of gas for driving visiting relatives and friends Las Vegas, Nevada and more visiting in Phoenix, Arizona ( about a 3 hr drive one way). Also guessing  $400.00 for fueling a car that fits our family needs of hauling a baby around. It can't be a sardine can.
What do you folks think?
Thanks...have a quiet weekend
Fred

Fred

Hi Fred,

 Topic today on the rig radio was Fuel Tanker Safety, issues the Tanker Drivers are experiencing while on the Job. Those that yaked gave their responses around folks flipping them off to some drivers blowing their horns and some even out and out just passing them with no Respect as to driving safety on signaling.

 I broke in for a period and stated my concern with "When" the point is reached by some offended citizenry, by the obvious that in this country whose population is What, #. ?,  i don't know the number exactly but across the board , the potential exists for More outwardly actions against them as price increases which would entail a scare across the drivers in total not to pull... 

Thus create a shortage...it got quiet on the radio for a bit after my explanation...

one guy expleted that's all we need...

Think about it...

Phred,

hang on to that job. The park and ride idea is a good one, if you could get a rider or 2 that would drop the cost a hell of a lot. 27 mpg is not bad. I get 22 hwy with a full size Dodge Ram 1500, but it has the 3.7 V-6 and a 5 spd stick which is why.

See if you can get a car pool going in your direction. Jobs in that field where you are are not that common.

I'm getting ready to mount that big ass switch you sent me on the wall and hook er up - it will switch the open wire feeders from the operating bench to the repair bench.  8)

it could be worse..

me= self employed

miles per week 1100

miles per gallon= 18

gallons per week about 60 @ 4.70 per gallon

no i cant go smaller than a 2500 ram deisel carry 1400 lbs of stuff and a trailer once a week

little over $1100 a month in fuel

like i said.. could be worse

You want to know fun?  Today, gas hit $4.20/gallon here!  I took a chance, and drove 11 miles over into the next county, where I got gas at "only" $4/gallon.  My car is a Chevy Prizm LSI (basically a rebadged Toyota Corolla), so its fuel economy isn't the worst.  But, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit, if they started exploiting that shale oil they found in North Dakota.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

You mean... actually USE some of our own natural resources ?
What about the snakes that'll loose their home ?
Boy... I don't think we wanna start down that path. It's... it's.....
sensible !!!

Yeah, you're right about that Buddly.  Heaven forbid!!

Ellen - AF9J

The module in place is perfect by design, what better environment could there be for a business, keep all activity off shore..bring your product to the market moguls...control the spigots. It's grand if your on the side that's producing, the product isn't manufactured, it's found drawn and processed.

It's not like creating plastics.

I like that, surviving with 1970 wages in 2008 inflation.

get a motorcycle, just taking it a few times a week makes a difference, my truck=15-20mpg the bike is 45-50mpg
the little vespa's get something like 80mpg

(http://www.bikemenu.com/photos/weird/006.jpg)

or maybe just a little scooter  ;D

(http://www.bikemenu.com/photos/weird/057.jpg)

I'm used to paying $4/gal for gas, having done so when I lived in Cuba.  It is what it is, pissing and moaning ain't gonna change it.  One thing I do know:  buying a new car to "save money" on gas is a losing proposition...

Close Jack, but not quite.

More like trying to run a 2008 population on 1976 supply capability.
We ain't built a new refinery in 32 years. Thank you EPA and enviromental (heavy on mental) wacos.

Gasoline Co. profits are 8.7 cents a gal.
The Feds take in $1.26 in taxes per gallon. 18 cents at the pump alone !

Now.... who really gouging us ???

this whole scenario really sucks!! But what in the hell can we do?? I would rather have to pay the high price than have to sit in line for days to get it like we did back in the 70s. Lets face it time is money, no matter how you look at it.

What really pisses me off is that it is more profitable for the oil companies to buy foreign oil than pay American workers to bring up our own oil. The rich and powerful OPEC countries wouldnt be anywhere as rich and powerful if we didnt buy their oil. Those b@$#%rds need us as much as we need them. Without us, there would be no market for their oil! Yea, other countries would buy some of it, but not as much as we do.

If we as a whole country found a way to dramatically cut our thirst for foreign oil, we as a country could regain much better control of the market pricing. For many of us, there are memories of a time when the only things we imported were exotic stuff and gourmet foods. There is really no reason why we couldnt get back to that again. It would be tough for a while, but I believe that in the long run it would be well worth it.

I dont know about others in this day of the "me" generation, but I would be more than willing to make sacrifices to get this country back to what it once was!!

                                                         The Slab Bacon

Lower the federal deficit, increase interest rates=dollar goes up, oil prices crash, otherwise the economy will crash first.

The Exxon/Mobile dicks testified that we need to conserve more. They are making record profits. Why explore for new resources when you don't have to. They are laughing at us while we whine. Even if they would, do you think it will make much of a difference?

I have had to work in Mass several times due to lay offs and good offers putting up with a long commute and paying taxes to another state even though I live in NH which has no income tax. This type of commute eats cars and people, but the pay in Mass is better...

I changed jobs and got back to working in NH several years ago cutting my commute from 110 miles per day to 44 and eliminating the tax, and feeling more human.

Last year I changed again due to a company buyout and got 8 miles closer to home.

That cut my commute down to 28 miles round trip. This last move was not planned but the savings are noticed.

Mike WU2D

Better get an idea soon... its summer now but winter is surely coming and a lot of people are gonna face decisions like heat or food or gas or kids medicine but with only enough money for one...

Ott

remember who you voted for last election, feel stupid yet?

Nope... my senators both voted to build new refineries on the closed military bases out west to help with the supply/demand dilema. Which the Prez had promised to sign if passed.
BUT.... the envirowaco controlled senate voted it down.
So we're stuck with 30 yr old capacity for a demand that's more than tripled since!

Those "record profits" go to their shareholders in the form of dividends.

My parents have worked hard all their lives and just recently retired. A large portion of their retirment is in the stocks they own, a large portion of those stocks being in Mobil. When people hear "shareholders", they picture the Donald Trumps of America, not the hard-working backbone of this country who depend on those dividends for their survival. They are a publicly owned company.

I don't like the idea of the House and Senate punishing my parents because the price of crude oil is going up. They collect more in taxes (average $0.44/gallon) than the oil companies collect in profits (after you deduct operational costs like refinement and shipping).


Which "they"? My parents aren't laughing, and they're putting food on the table with the money ExxonMobil pays out in dividends.

There's no one "they" to blame, here. We are addicted to gasoline as a culture, the House and Senate are addicted to tax revenue by tradition, and the tree huggers are addicted to keeping places they've never seen (and couldn't find on a map) looking pretty for postcards in the name of ecology.

A publicly-owned company making profits for the public who bought in to that company is not the culprit.

How much money is being forked out to pay for these hearings, I wonder? Probably coming out of that 44 cents per gallon the gubmint has their hand out for.

Forget the profits going to the (millions of) shareholders, follow where the rest of the money is going, and you'll see it's totally different from (but still worse than) you thought.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

based on that logic we all should pay $10/ga so Tom's parents can smile.
maybe I should ask my boss for another raise or maybe get a second job.

Yeah Frank, it figures you'd ignore the point I was trying to make and focus on the fact that my parents bought Mobil stock with their hard-earned money some 40 years ago.

You seem to think I was justifying the current gas prices. Of course, if you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd see I'm blaming government and social policies for the mess we're in.

By the way, my folks pay the same price for gas that you do.

Please, don't let that stop you blaming them, though.

A month or two ago an oil company bigwig said that they all canceled plans to build new refineries because of the recent national mandate to use ethanol for motor fuel. As it is, the existing ones are running at only 85% of capacity in part because demand for gasoline has stagnated in the USA.

Of course, they don't mind if someone else gets blamed..

Blame me. I'm a Republican, so it's obviously my fault.

There is only one bogeyman in the oil & gas market & it is not the "greedy" oil company or the "wasteful" American consumer. Both are simply operating in the existing marketplace just as we all do every day as we either produce or consume various products.

The one and only bogeyman is the RADICAL ENVIROMENTALIST. The leaders of thesese groups (Greenpeace, Enviromental Defense, Audubon Society, et al) are  hard core. They'd just as soon bring down Western civiliation to ensure a "natural" environment. I love clean water & fresh air. I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t. In that sense we are all environmentalists but the supply of oil & gas & electricity is being kept artificially low by the radical environmentalists in & out of government while the demand keeps increasing.

Imagine any other market where as demand soared the supply was kept artificially stagnant. Take PC’s. We all own one or more & no one could argue that demand has not soared over the last 30 years. But unlike the energy industry the supply of PC’s has kept up to (and even surpassed) demand leading to lower market prices. It’s not that Intel stockholders are less greedy than Exxon stockholders. It’s that government has not artificially limited production of chips & software.

With today’s modern, clean drilling techniques we could successfully & cleanly recover the 10.5 billion barrels in ANWAR and the 115 billion barrels off the Florida coast . (For reference we’ll import about 4 billion barrels in 2008 meaning the ANWAR & FL reserves alone would add 31 years to our supply). This is just the oil. There is also 650 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in these reserves. We need to use these resources as we develop new technologies efficient alternatives. I haven't even mentioned the east & west coast offshore reserves & the massive oil shale deposits out west. But the radical environmentalists in and out of our government have stymied the recovery of this oil forcing soaring fuel prices and extreme economic hardship on us all.


Other envirorad policies such as no new refineries, summer boutique fuels and no new nuke plants in decades are also limiting energy supply leading to higher prices.

Our nation’s energy policies, bullied as they’ve been by enviro-radicals, are rapidly leading our nation and our way of life to an early and untimely demise. If continued, these policies will mean a dark hard future for our children and grandchildren.

We need to tell the EnviroRads to go to hell by calling our senators & house reps & demand they open up production in this country.

End of story!

Yes Thom,

I blame you.
You alone.

You you you you.

You did it.

'Fess up.

                   _-_-bear

Sorry.

Simplistic analysis always yields results that appear correct but are only so because of limited scope!

We live in a complex system that must be viewed in a broad context as well as over time.

The existence of the "environmental wackos" comes not out of magical spontaneous creation, but as a reaction to the unbridled, uncontrolled excesses of business, yes?

You name it, PCBs in the rivers, Love Canal in Buffalo, etc. etc. etc.
Asbestos workers, anyone??
People, lots of them, got very very hurt. Dead hurt.

Cause-reaction-effect...

It's complex.
We've had plenty of time to prepare for this moment in history.
The LEADERSHIP has been well aware that this express train has been coming - yet we've been told to picnic on the tracks. Hope y'all enjoyed the picnic??

Stupid Jimmy Carter was correct about this matter.
Regan chose to ignore it - specifically and deliberately.
As have all the Presidents since.

We've had at least a quarter century to prepare - and so far next to nothing has been done. Ask yourself why?

Anyone with half a brain could see this day coming, right?
I did.

Ask yourself who benefits from this state of affairs?
Ask yourself what this leads to? (or might lead to?)
Ask yourself what the agenda really is... for a change.


          _-_-bear


PS. this "free marketplace" business is a great propaganda line - do you buy into it?

PPS. demand for PCs & chips has indeed soared... but irrelevant to this issue.

No it isn't,Bear. A free market in energy over the past 30 years would have headed off this scenerio.

Sometimes the simple answer is correct. This is not a complex issue. It IS simply suppy and demand. And as EJO points out, the supply side has been maliciously interrupted by outside forces.

Remove those forces and the market will correct itself.

Simple economics 101.
And in this case; simple is correct !

A) On Love Canal Hysteria - Here is the offical long term study (through July,2005) results froms the NY State Dept. of Health:

Mortality Study
Summary - Love Canal residents died at the same overall rate as other New Yorkers

Cancer Study
Summary - Love Canal residents were diagnosed with slightly less cancers than other New Yorkers, with some cancer sites being higher and some lower

http://www.health.state.ny.us/environmental/investigations/love_canal/fall_2006.htm


You might ask yourself: well than what all the hysteria was about
Ask yourself who benefits from this state of affairs? Answer - Enviro Rads.
Ask yourself what this leads to? (or might lead to?) Answer - Demonification of US industry. Limits on US industrial production.
Ask yourself what the agenda really is... for a change.

B) We live in the cleanest industrialized country in the world - bar none.

C) If the Enviro Rads were serious & had some gonads, they's be over in China marching & getting in the face of the President Hu Jintao. Afterall, China is the real filthy polluter & the problem is a world problem.

when the dollar value cuts in half with $10T on the credit card the price of oil doubles. Not supply and demand...the dollar isn't worth the paper it is printed on.
All Clinton's fault

 

Everyone is talking about oil and gas prices.    CNBC sez that all the gurus in all the economic sectors are talking about.   I just heard someone on the local two meter repeater driving along with a stuck open mike.    He was griping to his wife about gas prices before it timed out.   We are getting into inflation psychology that the federal reserve was worried about.    People are topping off their gas tanks whenever they can before the price increases the next day.

Bud,
Not a free market when it comes to oil. BTW these crooks are in the process of buying up water rights. Imagine the day when you can't collect rain water.

Folks are simply "speculating" on the oil price. They are betting it will go up. That's what speculators do.

That's what we've been trying to say. Let people drill, build refineries, build nuke plants. The market's not free because our gov't won't let people produce.

and you have to ask yourself who controlls the government on these issues?

Well, Maxine Waters has a plan... she had some trouble articulating it but she has a plan none the less and when people are freezing to death this winter her plan might just see the light of day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqjFBiPMmBE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqjFBiPMmBE)

As I understand it, that has already happened.  I read somewhere, a few years ago, that Colorado has a law that makes it illegal to "divert" natural water flow, worded in such a manner that it is illegal to collect rain water by having your house gutters feed into a barrel or reservoir.

Ooog.

A) there is no "free market"
B) there never ever has been one
C) the idea of a "free market" is as much an abstract idealism as is "communism" (but different, of course)
D) no matter what, there is less supply than there is demand for oil.
E) IF for a period of time one made the supply greater than the demand, what would the result be?
E.1) basic answer is there would be insufficient incentive for conservation or efficiency, nor the development of new energy technology
F) would the demand be as great as it is if ol' Nixon & Kissinger had NOT "opened up China"?? (ask yourself about this a while...)
G) Again, why didn't we move on efficiency and conservation from back in the 70s??
H) IF you and I live long enough, you had better pray that superconductors and something akin to fusion energy sources become practical

Hunker down folks, the seas are gonna get rough for a while...

                _-_-bear

Actually, that is true, but no one has ever been charged for doing so. The system of water rights in CO has been driven by our semi-arid climate. You can (sort of) live without gasoline, but you can't live without water.

 A farmer down the local river basin 50 miles away might have a legal right to X amount of water because his land was first irrigated 150 years ago. He legally owns the water in Colorado. If I were to divert rainwater from my home's gutters from its natural course into that river, then I am technically stealing from that farmer.

Of course, if I watered my garden with that diverted rainwater, it would eventually flow into the river, anyway, so no harm done. But if it was a substantial amount of water and I kept it to create a private lake, then I could get nailed.

Where the legal battles really happen is where someone might drill a well to irrigate their crops, and it can be proven that the water in that well leaked out of a nearby river or reservoir- Water belonging to others. The river goes dry, the farmer with senior water rights complains, so the well gets shut down, or the person who drilled it is ordered to buy water for the affected farmer.

Water ain't cheap around here, either. $10,000-$50,000 per acre-foot. When I built my home 10 years ago, a 3/4" water tap from the local water district cost $3,000. Now the same tap is $20,000.  They have to buy wholesale water rights to compensate for every new tap.

To make a long story short, that's what happens when the demand for a commodity exceeds the availability. The system of water laws in the west is a direct consequence of the old days of "Whiskey's for drinkin', water's for fighting over.."

This might seem like a screwy way to have things- Where someone owns almost every drop of water that falls. But it works..The cost forces people to generally conserve, and municipalities and farmers have the legal right to the water that they own, guaranteeing their expected supply. Beats pulling out the Colt .45s at the fence line.

Yep, supply and demand has always been the real driver. - Catches up to us sooner or later. Entire civilizations have come and gone fighting natural law.

And I've read a lot of these posts about as long as I could without responding.. yeah, I know I'm repeating a lot.

They're crying for help in the oil patch.  $50 /hr. and up.  Riggers, derrickmen, drivers, equipment operators, you name it, and these are the unskilled and semi-skilled starters.

The next labor rung up, drillers and tool pushers (overseers of 4 or 5 rigs run by drillers) are unobtanium.  Big signing bonuses, the works.

Professionals, - production, drilling, reservoir, processing plant, logging and well treatment engineers are making well over $100k.  Good ones there are unobtanium too.  And we're not even talking management compensation yet.

Energy co's simply can't find good workers. The oil boom /bust cycle used to be approx. 20 yrs.,( solar cycle there? ;D) but the last quiet boom's been going on since '82.  The Boom/bust cycle has historically washed out the experienced labor.  Believe it or not, every time oil crashes to $10 when it was $40.... or $30 when it bubbled to $60, good labor and entire phalanxes of professionals bail.  So here we are at $130.  I guarantee you, no oil co. is planning future infrastructure at much over a $45/bbl. revenue stream right now.

Opec knows this.  A good five year plan for Opec forcasting (or setting price in their case) in $/bb. would be $100, $100, $10, $30, $150.   Keep us guessing; keep us on the free flowin' teat.

So, keeps oil co's. really guessing... just about every time production of oil shales, or gassification of coal, building a state of the art refinery seems economical, the price/bbl. plunges.  No new plants built much beyond the small pilot stage.  Fluid bed gassification of coal, nuc. energy, you name it could make us energy independent.  Just start building several and see what happens.
      Yep, very cheaply produced oil is politically priced and the world's held hostage because uninterrupted flow calls for a very low threshold of implied threat, be it from terrorists or a super state's military threat of oil patch takeover.  That's one of the beauties of a free market, believe it or not.

I'm not even going to object to the environmental aspects of building new plants because much of modern new construction can/would and does go to countries with less stringent requirements.  I'll reserve vitriol for environmentalism running amok for another board.

So where are the profits going?  Paying down debt. And, yes, paying dividends.  Even your typical electric utility has 60/40 debt ratios.  .. let alone a much more speculative company such as an oil or nat. gas producer.
 
Sure the major oil co. CEO's are filthy rich.  So there are, what, 200 of them?  How many multimillionaire ball players are there? Movie stars? Lesser stars? Golf pros?   How many plain ol' Fortune 500 and lesser rank CEO's? CFO's, Prez's, VP's, Directors, etc.   Right, several hundred thousand to millions.  Managers making over $250k?... A bunch.

So the US based oil co's have made $46 billion in 'excess profit.' Your friendly, rapidly converging on communism, US govt's annual take is $ three trillion!   That's your money, free and clear?  No, -taxed and confiscated.

Any star is simply what a free market thinks they're worth.  Russian atheletes couldn't wait to defect....  Now they've joined the R. mafia.  Ah the beauty of private enterprise.

About those oil patch labor shortages... Well, you'll probably have to move to a "dirty" oil producing state or country, learn new skills, get your hands dirty and work very hard to realize commensurate income.  The free market generates income; governments re-distrubute it (after an ever increasing administrative and overhead fee, of course.)

So yes, the stock market is where the forward thinking average joe can realize a little of the wealth.

To "top it all off," you think $4.00 is expensive fuel? We run on a very cheap energy world right now.  When a society can afford to ship megatons of raw materials overseas, manufacture stuff for pennies per pound and ship it right back, complete with expensive packaging, distribution, sales and retail channels, the energy must be cheap!  When society can justify building 16 lane highways, rivers of constantly flowing traffic, millions of bb's/day consumed for personal transportation, 250 million dwt high seas freighters, Lear jets... heating or cooling swimming pool water, and on and on then we simply, by definition, live in a cheap energy world.

Ask your grandparents who had no loose cash, barterered or grew much of their own food and with kids who had real chores what it's like to live in an expensive energy world.

Somewhat simplistically, but anyone using this board that isn't sitting in a library or other free internet provider somewhere has no real grasp of what it's like to be poor.   I used to complain that 'day old' bread was stale... my mother simpy gave me a withering stare and said, "you have no idea what stale bread really is."

Saving fuel money on your $10-Grand bike, er oops, your $3k scooter? Well, go to Darfur, look around and count your blessings.  You live in undoubtly the largest class of very wealthy world citizens that ever historically existed.  You've been made to feel poor by egalitarianism run amok, by self-superior parties, aided by media committed to making you feel poor.

A) There are many free markets. An example is the snow shoveling market. Little if any government control, no labor unions, small if any capital investment (you can borrow your dad's snow shovel). No limit on number of shovelers, many potential customers
B) See A
C) See A
D) No, the demand always exactly equals the supply at the market price.  
E) A downward shift in the market price. This happens all the time.

In the snow shoveling example, assume 5 snow shovelers and 100 customers. 2 new shovelers move in to town with no increase in the customer base. In order to garner market share the 2 new shovelers shovel for less. They begin to attract customers & the other 5 shovelers lower their price to meet the new competition. The increase in the supply of shovelers from 5 to 7 has caused a decrease in the market price.

An analogous example to the energy market would be a 5 shoveler, 100 customer market.  The number of customers increases to 150, the government prevents any new shovelers from entering the market and refuses to allow the existing 5 to hire any shoveler/employees.   With the increased demand the 5 quickly realize they can charge more for the same work as everyone wants their service.

Now more than ever <whatever I've been saying>

That is the natural response to any shock. We saw it big time after 9/11. Everyone from every side of every issue shouted "See what I've been saying? Now will you believe me?" The trouble is we were all saying different things. We couldn't all be right, could we? We're seeing it now with the price of fuel going up. Whatever the pet peeve was before, it's a bigger pet now. 

Have you noticed it on this board? The radical environmentalists are to blame. The current administration.   The greedy oil companies. Taxes. The Saudis. I wonder if any of us listen to anyone else or if we just get more adamant in our existing views.

What has given me the most solace is taking matters into my own hands.  We were lucky to be in the market for a car a couple of years ago and bought a Prius -- 45 to 50 MPG.  If I needed a big truck, I'd get an old Ford diesel and fill up at the local diner like Bill does. We put solar panels on the roof, increased insulation, and are replacing the old, tired furnace with a heat pump.  As much as I can, I'm edging out of the energy economy.  It sure feels great.

Well, I've been doing that since the 70s OM. I put R60 in the attic in 1983.
1984 I added an inner second wall. 1985 passive solar. Not ready for an overpriced hybrid yet.....

This is nothing but political rhetoric. True, a grass roots refinery has not been built in the U.S. in 32 years, but the existing refineries have made major expansions. In 1970 the U.S. refining capacity was about 12MBD and refineries operated at about 92% rates. In 2008 the capacity is 17.4MBD and refineries are operating at about 85% capacity.

Darrell

How many small ones were purchased by the big oil giants so they could shut them down to control the supply.

Very cool. I live in Silicon Valley (I was here before the silicon).   The designers of the houses out here must have bought the "too cheap to meter" hype -- designed to use juice.  I've been retrofitting just to get to reasonable. I'm jealous of the passive solar but if I did that, I'd be living in a closet. 

Jon

PS:  At the time, the Prius wasn't expensive, as car prices go.

The hottest cars on Ebay right now are the 10 to 15 year old Geo Metros and Prizms. Prius mileage.

My mom's Geo got over 40 MPG, bought new at a Chevy dealer for about $9K and they're now asking $7K for them, more than twice last year. LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEO_Metro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Sprint

Why they can't start manufacturing the things again is beyond me. They'd sell like hotcakes in today's market.

the enviro-fascists would like us all to live like the wretched liberal crack-pot idiots they are. Then they could feel good about themselves because no one would be better than they are. And that's what it is really all about, isn't it, self-esteem?

I think we are attributing WAY too much power to the few crackpots on the fringes of society here.

Actually, just the opposite is true. The major oil companies have been spinning off refineries that have been picked up by independents. The largest refiner in North America isn't BP or Exxon or Shell, etc. It's Valero, and independent refiner with no production.

Darrell

Activists Repeatedly Fend Off Attempts to Open Arctic Refuge to Oil Drilling
http://wwf.worldwildlife.org/site/PageServer?pagename=can_results_arctic_refuge

I guess that's what you call taking things out of context, using just the first phrase in a paragraph and leaving out the rest.  I'd have to say you missed the point entirely or maybe you just made the case.

Thom. My parents also worked very hard for what they have. My father died 4 years ago so there gos half of his pension. When my 86 year old mother tries to stay warm this winter, and it costs $800.00 + to fill the tank, the last thing on anyones mind here is Exxon/Mobile shareholders. Sorry. p.s I have no problem with anyone making money, but there are always the consequences.

Hi Bud,

 Well I remember pretty much the pay scales in my field from then and That's why i made that comment..Company Bucket Drivers today are still being paid those wages 10.00 to 15 dollars an hour..i related it to that..it's kinda funny.."I found a 10.00 dollar an hour Job"...LOL....silly humor OM..LOL...

But ...considering the scales...imagine feeding a family of four on that. now...Then it could be done...

Something else Bud, i really don't call it Gouging...I look at it as Price Control...or Price fixing...Wall Street related...

Nice simplistic analysis - but it fails since the world economy or the US economy can not be modeled by snowshovelers. Not even those who have big rigs for that purpose.

It's not simple, and it isn't the same as a local micro economy nor a local labor situation.

                 _-_-bear

I'm not sure how bad things will have to get before somebody finally gets a futuristic energy source going.  But every increase in the price of conventional energy is pushing us in that direction.  When it happens, history suggests that two people will independently show up at the patent office with it, quite possibly within hours of each other.

damn i thought my wife was the only person that had absolutely no common sense no brains and believes everything that NBC (owned by GE largest lobbying group on the hill by 300 percent who makes wind turbines who is pushing the green bulls$%^ to sell more stuff.)  MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING DOES NOT EXIST... IT IS A CULT RELIGION  PERPETRATED ON THE MASSES BY THOSE WHO BOW AT THE ALTER OF CARL AND LARGE CORPORATIONS INVESTED IN ALTERNATIVE ENERGY    THAT IS STILL MORE FRICKING EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE THAN FOSSIL FUELS.  AND WHEN THEY CANT ADVANCE THEIR AGENDA AS A BETTER CHEAPER WAY THEY SPEND 30+ YEARS STOPPING ANY INCREASE IN PRODUCTION AND THEY WONT STOP UNTIL THEY ARTIFICIALLY INFLATE THE PRICE OF FOSSIL FUELS TO THE POINT THAT THEY ARE NOW NEEDED.

BUT OK YOU CAN STAY LOCKED UP IN YOUR SHACK ON RUBY RIDGE INSISTING THAT ALIENS MOLESTED YOUR HAMSTER AND THAT THEIR WAS A SECOND GUNMAN ON THE GRASSY KNOLL,  JUST PLEASE DO THE ENTIRE WORLD THAT IS NOT SELF SUFFICIENT AND DEPENDS ON CHEAP GOODS TO SURVIVE AND LET US DRILL FOR OIL.  YOU MORONS WILL BE DEAD LONG BEFORE A COAL FIRED POWER PLANT BRINGS UPON THE END OF DAYS. 

BESIDES ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT NOT MAN

WHEW

OK FLAME ME BIOTCHES

Yeaaa, and I'm not taken my drag pipes off my harley either... :P

Besides,

Now where in any Briggs and Stratton Service manual does it describe require, or other wise mention a need for any type accepted catylicktic matrix device in lue of re oxygenating the environment....Tune for Clean Burn and maintain a Horizontal positioning and mow in a crosshatch pattern....Please keep hands and feet behind the Bar...the barmaid will be here shortly 8)

Farmall out man.....

"You can keep your Max Factor"
"I'll stay on my Tractor"


Last time this happened, back in the late 80's we decided to start mandating electrics in the US and a couple of states went as far as to put laws in place. These guarantees put Detroit in action and several EV's began to emerge, the most notable was the GM Impact. By 1993 several thousand were being market tested.

In response Opec drove the cost of a barrel of oil down to 15 dollars, the laws were recinded and the EV's were crushed and we all drove Trucks and SUV's for the next 15 years. This effectively short circuited the electric vehicle development.

This is not a free market situation.

Mike WU2D,

Our representatives address the problem:

Summary of recent congressional hearings:

actually Ronald Regan collapsed the price of oil in the 80's early 90s when he annnounced over 100 billing in spending for domestic drilling and turning coal into oil.  The opec new that Regan didnt fool around.  He did what he said and said what he intended. Evident by the fact that for years Carter couldnt free some pow's and just a few days in office Regan had them back on American soil.  Opec knew that if we started producing our own oil that their largest customer would soon not need them.  so they made it so cheap that we couldnt compete. this held on through Bush senior.  But then there was Willy who saw the envirowackos as his allies.  He put the breaks on any progress Regans plan made and started us down this slippery slope.

HIppes have to gripes in the world.  Republicans are evil war mongers and they don't care about the environment.  Oh and don't forget we are Racists (explain that one to Lincoln)  They reject all religeon and theological views and replace them with science.  Ok fine you are free to do that but isnt it one of the cardianal rules of science that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.  Hell Al Gore got on the ethanol bandwagon and now after a couple of years of burning the worlds food supply the UN is calling it a crime against humanity.  Gore is nowhere to be found.  lets see burn our food supply and people starve around the world.  This type of knee jerk reaction to anything is what the green people are famous for.  Each and every time it has happened it has created a situation even worse than the original one.

Katrina flooded out new orlean.  Now some people believe that bush took orders from the mother ship to turn on the hurricane machine to kill all of the people.  Or that the federal goberment wouldnt pay to shore up the levys.  Actually back in the 60's New orleans was hit by a Cat 5 storm that did the same damage. (back then people were smart enough and not to lazy to get the hell out of dodge on their own)  In the years following the storm the army corp of engineers devised a plan to put Hydrolic storm doors across the inlets that led to lake Ponchartrain and shore up the levys to withstand a catagory 5 storm.  The money was allocated and construction was about to begin. Until a small group of shroom eating frog lickers took them to federal court and won because when the doors close Thousands of (fricking shrimp) could get caught in the doors and crushed.  The money was then divereted to welfare programs for new orleans.

the list could go on long enough to fill a legal library.  Thousands of lives destroyed many species of animals now extinct and countless billions in property damage all because a few morons that in times past would have been institutionalized thought they new what was best for us and the planet.

Let's stick to the topic of how we're personally dealing with high fuel prices and tone down the partisan politics.

Thanks.

ok damn hippies 

oops did i say that out loud
lol

Speaking for the Follically lessoned...I refuse to take hydrocarbons personal... ;D

Therefore,..I'm placing No Blame or Inciting any Scapegoat finger pointing...

I'm just Broke... ;D

I'm prolly in the -$ category. To be merely broke would be a blessing.

I'm outside fencing this weekend..As with livestock, not with a rapier.

Taking a Mexican Coke break while charging the DeWalt. Stronger Mexican beverages later.

I'll second that.

Here's what I'm personally doing & I urge everyone who is serious about this problem to do the same or simlar:

1) I am writing, and encouraging all freinds & family to do the same, weekly both my senators and my congressman & begging them to end the moratoriums on offshore drilling, ANWAR dilling, oil shale & tar sand development, nuclear power, liquified coal production, refinery construction and asking them to end the multi-summer fuel mandate.

2) I am writing letters to the editor to as many major newspapers who will accept them encouraging the citizenry to do the same. That is to also write,call & otherwise demand that their reps  remove barriers to energy production.

3) I'll drive my GEO Metro & get 45mpg. I'll go to mass & pray to God that if I get in a wreck I don't get squashed like a bug in the thing.

4) I'll drive my F250 Power Stroke only when necessary & look into running it on used french fry oil.

5) I'll only use my little Elecraft K-2 when operating & then only off it's battery & my solar panel.

I need something I can charge. A funny thing happened with GM's EV2 electric car. Some locations built free charging stations. I don't really understand this. Why did Fry's Electronics offer free charging to EV's?  Why are there free charging stations at the local train station? But there they are still and unusued long after the EV2's were wrested from the clinging grips of the people who had them and wanted to keep them.

I haven't taken a close look.  Does anyone know what the connection was?  Was it an inductive coupling or something?  Do you suppose it would draw attention if I showed up with a truck load of lead acid batteries and plugged in?

Way back when I was in college there were enormous batteries outside the physics department.  I was told these were Navy surplus submarine batteries that the physics department used when they wanted just a whole lot of juice in a hurry.  If I could get some of those and whatever connection GM had for the EV's ...

Turning off the Ranger, Hq-140, AF-67, NC-183, Globe Chief, listening on the IC-718.
Saving them to heat with in the winter.   Traveling in the 13 year old Honda if I have to go anywhere.
Retired, its cheaper than working and driving to work and paying taxes.  PA and local government doesn't tax pensions and IRA's, exempts other income below $13K.    Spend retirement time growing the garden and the XYL cans it for winter eating.   Still need gas to cut the grass and run the tiller and money for insurance and property taxes so the chillun can get a good education.

Check this out for info on the EV1:
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1052

I was a consultant for AeroVironment, I met with Paul MacCready a few times, although nothing to do with the car.

RAV4 Electric prices sky rocket.  I went to eBay and typed in electric vehicle. There's a 2001 RAV4 electric selling for $55,600 , 46 bids and the bidding isn't over.  Yikes.  I'm sure that doesn't pencil out economically even with gas prices at $10/gallon.  If I could get one of those for a tenth the price or maybe two tenths I'd do it in a heartbeat.  But at $55K it's just crazy.

The write up has lots of interesting information.

Hey, I need to mow my lawn today, so I have to start up the lawnmower. My problem is that I'm sure I used up all my allotted carbon credits. Does anyone have any for sale? Just tell me where to send the cash and I will start stuffing envelopes. Thanks a lot!

Rob W1AEX

Why worry about it.  The dollarette keeps losing value and soon won't be worth the paper it's printed on anyway.

My state retirement pension from my teaching job gives an annual Cost Of Living Adjustment.  They base it on the actual calculated increase in the cost of living, up to a maximum 3% increase per year!

Everything keeps going up except wages, salaries and pensions.

Zenn gearing up for EEStor-powered car
March 31, 2008 - Exclusive
By David Ehrlich, Cleantech Group
http://media.cleantech.com/2644/zenn-gearing-up-for-eestor-powered-car

http://www.zenncars.com/

Hi Bill how's the family over there OM,

 My thing is the little extra pin moneys i used to have in the wallet for the little things around the house is in jeopardy now with this Increase.... The Brat daughters are a little miffed when i put down the hammer on unnecessary running around.. women love to shop and run that's that...and it goes...I'm gona have two in college now and it's Tough...two young women in two different automobiles and two complete sets of costs..and naturally being young they're not worried about what dad takes care of cause dad takes care of it..as it shud be...I spoil my girls and I shudn't..but that's my thing and i'll deal with it..

 The concern on my end is that it doesn't blow up in the face of the Nation. I understand business i understand profit and i understand credit margin, I'm all for making a dollar brother...meaning no disrespect here...business is business...but daily change is cutting edge territory, we're getting an education in a deregulated market system here, Ok, my responsibility is to keep in tune with that change, I'm responsible for me and mine..Alright not a problem...

 But on the other end of the Balance sheet I'm running out of resources brother to keep up with this change, I can create things to aid my little Farm system here i can create bio-diesel for the tractor I can plant and I can and store food stuffs i can butcher i can do anything i want as far as sustaining life..

 But I'm running out of balance sheet resources and so is everyone else, that tells me more change is on the way...and that's the tough part Bill preparing for the next step not knowing what's in store...

 An Bill I don't think at this time extending Credit purchasing investment generating more write offs is on order, because of the unstability in our money..

They need to show us some Stability generating power..Before I can Make a Better Move...it's a conservative call now...
 
73 OM..




 

 

From 5/23 WSJ:

Oil Industry, Lawmakers Aim To Lift Bans on Drilling
By Russell Gold Ben Casselman and Stephen Power

"Mounting concerns about global energy supply are fueling a drive by the oil industry and some U.S. lawmakers to end longstanding bans on domestic drilling put in place to protect environmentally sensitive areas."



Over 200 billion barrels of known untapped oil in the U.S..
Hundreds of trillions of cubic feet of untapped natural gas.

OF COURSE THESE ARE ALL IN FEDERALLY MANDATED HANDS OFF ZONES. NO RECOVERY ALLOWED.

WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN & SENATORS! TELL THEM TO OPEN UP THIS LAND.

Oil Shale:"While oil shale is found in many places worldwide, by far the largest deposits in the world are found in the United States in the Green River Formation, which covers portions of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming. Estimates of the oil resource in place within the Green River Formation range from 1.2 to 1.8 trillion barrels. Not all resources in place are recoverable; however, even a moderate estimate of 800 billion barrels of recoverable oil from oil shale in the Green River Formation is three times greater than the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia. "

Tar Sands:
"United States, tar sands resources are primarily concentrated in Eastern Utah, mostly on public lands. The in-place tar sands oil resources in Utah are estimated at 12 to 19 billion barrels."

http://ostseis.anl.gov/index.cfm

OF COURSE THESE ARE ALL IN FEDERALLY MANDATED HANDS OFF ZONES. NO RECOVERY ALLOWED.

WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN & SENATORS! TELL THEM TO OPEN UP THIS LAND.

Interesting, just recently the gas co around here, has been offering land owners decent money for drilling rights on their properties.

I'm gonna buy a Vespa ... and a raincoat.

My folks have to pay the same price for gas and oil that your mom does, Ed. Sorry.

If your mom's retirement fund had a large portion of oil stock in it, you would care. If congress was threatening to limit profitability of companies whose profits your mom was depending on for her survival, you sure as hell would care.

The fact of the matter is there are thousands upon thousands of retirees who own stock in these companies, and that's where those profits that you seem to think are so evil are going. Real, hard-working men and women who have done their part for our country and are now having their retirement money threatened by some hair-brained communist philosophy overtaking congress. You want a real economic downturn? Let the goons in congress have their way and limit the cash flow through the oil companies.

There are studies that were done some years ago that tell us the outcome of these plans; but they're a bit difficult to understand because they're written in Russian.


Are you saying my parents (and hundreds of thousands of retirees) deserve to have their small retirement fund cut in half, or worse, just so you can pay a few cents less per gallon of gas?

How about I take money from your mother's retirement fund because I don't like the price of corn? I have no problem with her having money, but there are always the consequences.

--Thom
Kraft Advertisement One Zesty Grated Cheese

Hillman Minx anyone?

I have been told that if you live in 3 land and happen to have gas come out of the ground when you drill (for water, whatever...) that you can't use it?? ::)

            _-_-bear

PS. if you could I'd give some consideration to moving out that way... "free" power, eh?

Thats a sure-fire way to relieve the sting of high gas prices.

Thom,

Ur anger is focused in the wrong direction.

Any "retirement fund" that is so narrowly invested, and not sufficiently diversified so that a change in the fortunes of any one industry segment has a significant effect on the return of that fund isn't properly managed.

IF your parents invested their own money in this manner, then the outcome (good or bad) is their sole responsibility. Imho, if that is what happened, then they made a risky choice, and don't bitch when the dice come up the wrong way.

Regardless, anyone who does a long term investment in any non-governmental based "instrument" (read: "worthless paper") or is the person(s) who determines said investment is responsible for the outcome based on the contents of said "portfolio". Put another way, if a professional organization made lousy choices, I'd string them up, or go live in their house if things went seriously south...

Besides, Oil is up now, so IF this is where your parents are sitting, I'd tell them that NOW is a good time to hedge their bets...

               _-_-WBear2GCR

Over 200 billion barrels of known untapped oil in the U.S..


Oil Shale:" estimate of 800 billion barrels of recoverable oil from oil shale in the Green River Formation is three times greater than the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia. "

Tar Sands:
"United States, tar sands resources are primarily concentrated in Eastern Utah, mostly on public lands. The in-place tar sands oil resources in Utah are estimated at 12 to 19 billion barrels."

I just did a little quick math. Based on our 20 million barrel a day use, these known reserves would give us about a 160 year supply of oil.

Now add a quadrupling of our nuke plants & clean coal electric plants & the daily oil usage drops  several million barrels a day giving us an even longer supply - like 200 years. By then we will surely have alternatives ramped up.

Problem solved - go get it!

Terry, there are a number of major hurdles with respect to these potential resources.

1. Extraction from oil shale and tar sands takes enormous amounts of water. The areas that you cite are desert. The necessary water doesn't exist. As it is, Lakes Mead, Powell and others in the Colorado River Basin that supply water to millions of western residents (Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc) are at historic lows and they're scrambling for water as it is. My point is, it's a desert. There is no available water to extract the petroleum with. We currently don't have the technology or resources to get at the oil. Exxon, Shell and others already own enormous mineral rights in the areas that you cite. There is no legal impediment to extraction of oil from shale on their privately-owned land.. But they simply can't do it until they figure out how to.

In the early 1980s, the oil companies shut down their early mining of shale because it wasn't feasible. That was called Black Tuesday here, when towns of residents lost their jobs. They gave up. It wasn't regulation, envirokooks or anything human in the way; it's simply not feasible to extract that petroleum with our technology. Additionally, enormous amounts of electric power are needed to cook the oil out of the rock. It's been projected by some that a half-dozen nuclear or coal power plants would need to be built to provide this power. I love nuclear power myself, but we're talking $250-$400 a barrel for this untapped oil. At least. If they can find the water and power.

If we're gonna build all of those power plants to extract the oil, we might as well just use them to power electric or hydrogen cars.

2. Digging out that oil soaked rock is going to destroy hundreds, maybe thousands of square miles of the west by strip mining it. And because it's an arid desert, reclamation is going to take a thousand years. You can still see the tracks of tanks that practiced in the area during WWII. I have to ask you, would *you* want your state to be part of a national sacrifice zone? How about a thousand square mile strip mine there in the middle of beautiful Michigan?

So you see, it's not quite so simple.

"They" said we could never send a man to the moon too. You give up far too easily.

Actually, while gasoline certainly isn't a bargain, when the 1955 average price ($0.29/Gal)is adjusted for inflation, it comes out to $2.21/Gal. That's a far cry from $4.00/Gal, but not as grim as some would make the situation seem.

Darrell

I agree it's difficult & I would be against long-term enviromentally damaging methods.  OTOH there are still well over 220 billion barrels of known, readily recoverable oil & tar sands available right now that are in federally mandated no drill zones. That works out to a 30 year supply in known reserves today & they are finding more all the time. Shell in it's Alberta, Canada Athabasca Oil Sands Project is already doing the tar sands.

OIl Shale is tougher I agree but it can be done in an enviromentally clean way. The "In Situ" method holds promise. It uses a lot of water but water is recyclable & Shell is aquiring the water rights to make it happen.

Indeed, Steve. But my point is that it's not feasible and tremendously damaging to recover most of that petroleum with *today's* technology. So whatever is out there isn't going to be helpful with our short-term crisis. If it's possible to do so in the future (whenever that is) and overcome the drawbacks I cited, there's no reason not to go for it.

I'd be totally behind a national energy research effort on order of our efforts to get to the moon.

BTW, Denver's oil refineries are mostly fed with Canadian tar-sand oil now. A straight rail shot south from Alberta. But Canada has the water that we don't and you can reclaim land if you get decent precipitation, which they do in Alberta, but we don't here.

I have to reiterate something- If we need to build gigawatts of generating capacity in order to extract our rockbound western oil reserves, then we ought to consider just building the power plants, forgetting about the oil, and use them to power our transportation fleet with electricity or hydrogen. We need to sharpen our pencils on this one.

Today's technology is almost always insufficient for tomorrow's problems. Any new technology is "too costly", "too limited in supply" and "too hard to do" in the beginning. That's just the way it is. Accepting the status quo is not the answer.

I don't see the current situation as a crisis. Politicians want to call everything a crisis these days. It helps them demagogue the issue and then take action that would otherwise never be accepted by the electorate. It's an age old sales pitch - create a sense of urgency in the prospective buyer. Don't fall for it.

The reality is that there is no quick solution for the current situation. Where we are now has a 20-30 year tail. Thinking we can get out of it quickly defies rational thinking.

In this case the politicians created the problem and are continuing to exacerbate it through their "Just Say No" policy to U.S. energy dvelopment.

Aren't better batteries the only technology we need ?  I don't think we're waiting on any technology to produce a lot more electricity. There's nuclear. There is solar thermal. There is wind (Google T. Boone Pickens wind).  If we subsidized these the way we subsidize fossil fuels we'd have watts galore. The only thing missing is the batteries.  Everything else is here now.

I read somewhere that we taxpayers aren't pouring grant money into battery development while we are spending money on things like hydrogen fuel cell research.  I submit for your consideration that battery development is the single most important area of R&D to get us out of this pickle.

I see that solar thermal is really taking off in CA. Highly efficient, too. But when clouds roll overhead the power plant, they need some of those batteries that you mentioned. Or a big room full of Aerovox capacitors..

The scale of those solar plants is impressive. The one at Mojave is 150 megawatts- wow. Arizona, CA and New Mexico could be North America's electricity OPEC.

Up this way, wind power is going gangbusters. My former employer (the local investor-owned utility) currently has over a thousand megawatts of wind generation available, another thousand in South Dakota and Minnesota. Two megawatts is a substantial amount of power. They have contracted for 7,400 megawatts in Colorado alone in the next 12 years. That's roughly the outpoot of ten large coal plants.

The fuel is free. No wonder they're liking it in this energy environment.

Clouds, or other short term shortages, can be easily handled by mechanical storage devices using flywheel technology.

http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/index.htm

Peter

Wind farms are ugly and spoil the view. There has to be a better way.

maybe it's a silly idea, but if half the state of New Mexico was covered with PV panels, wouldn't that make enough electricity for the continental USA? The figures being thrown about vary by an ordr of mangnitude.. some claim about 20 square miles of PV panels=1000 MW electrical generation plant
Others claim 150 square miles for the same 24x7 1 gigawatt powerplant output. (http://www.newscientist.com/blog/environment/2007/07/just-how-much-land-does-solar-power.html)
 If the generally cloudless and mostly uninhabited desert were done checkerboard style with "large" PV installatyions, it might help. ?

There was a recent Scientific American article that said just that, except I think it was Arizona desert they proposed for the thin film solar panels.  The article assumed further reductions in $'s/watt.  Meanwhile, the solar thermal guys say they can do it now.  The main page of the Ausra website (www.ausra.com) has something like that as the banner.   But you can't generate all the power for the US of A in Nevada and Arizona unless you want to put in some big honking transmission lines. They propose DC.  Why DC?

The flywheel storage is extremely neat.  I mean spinning something in a vacuum and so fast that you have to make it out of some special material so it doesn't fly apart -- how cool is that?  The solar thermal guys, however, say they can just store hot liquids in big tanks underground.

But we still need the batteries for the cars & trucks.  How about an F-250e that could go 100  miles on an overnight charge then used a little on-board gas generator like the Chevy Volt to keep going? 

Part of the equation for the gasoline price in the U.S. is the demand.  It seems to me that the citizens could cut down on the demand if they wanted to.  I drove home today from the Akron area and gas out there is $3.99, diesel fuel $4.75. 

I drove back on I-80 with cruise control set at 65 mph.  Most cars and tractor-trailers were doing faster than me still.  I got 39.5 miles per gallon in my 1997 Camry.  The tractor-trailers that passed me uphill sure don't get that.

Interestingly, I talked with one ham in the Akron area while I was out there who is familiar with the trucking business due to being a part-time engineer with a major tire company in that area.   Besides the fact that the trucking company could save money on fuel, the orchestration of the arrival and departures at the trucking terminals is tightly controlled.   Food supplies and other items at the stores these days all follow that Just-in-Time concept, which means the stores can run out of stock, as there is almost no regional stock buffers anymore.  He said we are in deep do-do for food if something were to happen to the shipping/distribution system we are now relying on.

It’s a shame the railroads have been run in the toilet.  Seems like they could be a help here now.  We may need to get out of the rat race and settle back to doing things the way they were done in the 40’s and 50’s; with the focus on long-term results rather than the short-term approach.

Hello Tom,

 I'm glad that guy let you know that alot of folks don't understand it and how it works, box trailer outfits are nothing but rolling warehouses, that's why the demand was to increase lengths to the size they are today, but there are warehouses and distribution points located through out the country, there is buffering on dry and can goods, it's the perishables that's very critical.

 Another thing that fella say anything about Nitrogen replacement in Tires that would also aid in Mileage both fuel and wear, alot of folks don't understand that improvement, where's our Tire Companies on that idea...never seen it mentioned on the Toob, except maybe on one of those tech car programs..

 "This Country wastes in a day what some people could live on for a lifetime..." if no one believes that statement walk in back sometime Lowe's, Home Depot Wal Mart Your Food Stores and Look at those Hydraulic Packers and Look in there or watch what's thrown away I do that daily at Home Depot I watch while I'm delivering there and i have One Food Distribution warehouse i go to twice a week, you would be as insulted as I am what I watch sometimes...and every time i say something like Hey You throwing that away give it to me man..give it to somebody... and "No" we're not allowed it's company policy...I understand that I just don't agree with it..there's alot on need in this country...

And we're bitching about Gas...Gas isn't the Problem it's Us... ;D Look at the Silly Amalekans yo buy vely big auto mo bilies...yo Need Flesh air..yo flighting wars in lands of oil and yo ask for more...go drill holes in yor land or we charge yo plenty for being so silly... ;D

So Said Saudi Arabia to the Bushman...

The citizens have cut down on the demand.

For the 4 month period (1/1 - 4/30) of 2008 the consuption of petroleum products in the US is down 2.4 million barrels (MB) - (82.94MB in 2007 to 80.55MB in 2008). We are even down 1.28MB from 2006 when we consumed 81.83MB in the first 4 months of that year.

The wasteful American consumer is a myth.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/cfapps/STEO_Query/steotables.cfm?periodType=Monthly&startYear=2004&startQuarter=1&startMonth=1&endYear=2008&endQuarter=4&endMonth=12&tableNumber=3

It was on this mornings news....Prices falling on SUV's...haa haa  no trade in value.... ;D

Now we'll get to see what they're really worth... :o

Senate Bill 2958 is still alive!

The American Energy Protection Act of 2008 would remove restrictions on oil exploration and drilling in Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) and the Outer Continental Shelf (OCS). This would open access to about 24 billion barrels of oil....

A few thousand emails to Sen. Jay Bingaman, the chairman of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, might help get it to the Senate floor & get it passed.

http://bingaman.senate.gov/contact/types/email-issue.cfm

Don't be foolish or naive about this.

Ask yourself where does all that oil from that Alaskan pipeline go?
Afaik, most of it goes to Japan and asia.

The oil from anywhere is likely to merely go into the "big pot" that is the global oil supply, and not specifically to the USA.

So, unless the bill specifies that the output of "Anwr" will go only to domestic usage, it's merely pissing into the big global bucket.

Since the government seems to be full of "globalists" it's rather unlikely that unless we get a Libertarian, true Conservative (Pat Buchannan anyone?), or bona fide PATRIOT into the White House, and into that excuse for a Congress, forget about it.

Pipe dreams...

                   _-_-bear

I too lean to the libertarian philosophy but Senate Bill 2958 is a step in the right direction. A journey of a 1000 miles begins with the first step (or something like that).

Be positive! I know its so much easier to be negative but negativity never got anyone anywhere..

How about a double negative?

Negativity never got no one no where...


ALL oil goes into the global bucket. So extra oil from ANYWHERE will help. The current demand is 86,000 barrels a day. The current supply is 85,000 barrels. You figure it out.

You know... I remember in the early 70's when we had an oil "crisis" the government instituted a national 55 mph speed limit on all interstate highways. Seems as though they are not really concerned enough to do that, now. I think the oil barons are making too much money to want the prices to go down. Now they are kicking around a bill here in WV to outlaw woodstoves. I wonder why? Wood is a renewable fuel, not a fossil fuel. Also, it does not add CO2 to the atmosphere when you burn it. It adds just as much when it decays in the woods. The WV legislators are getting lobbied, i.e. bribed, by the oil baron fascists.

Great they're trying to Ban wood Stoves...that's real intelligent...

This thing gets deeper and deeper with hilarity...I think it's all about Control and that's that...

Some towns around here have outlawed outdoor wood furnaces.   Probably a few people set them close to the property line and smoked out their neighbors.

LOL..Smoke em up here Boss.... ;D

I'm just amazed with what I'm reading here...

Dunno if that is accurate, but assuming it is, guess they just can't find a way to eek out another 1,000 barrels a day?? ::) ::) ::)

I hear there is cheap land under the Brooklyn Bridge too!  ;D

                  _-_-bear

Problem with those things, is they tell you " you don't NEED a tall chimney..."
So, the smoke stays low to the ground and pi**es off the neighbors.

If you do put a taller smokestack on, the smoke goes up higher....

I can't remember if it was this thread I mentioned this before, but here in Verminmont, the just passed a law stating the outdoor boiler has to comply with emission standard...

BIG $$$ for any that meet that standard....

Buggers........

RAV4 electric went for a whopping $89,200.   What is going on here?   It must be a collector car now. That price makes no sense for a daily driver.

Last week a friend of mine in the energy biz got a tour of the Southern CA Edison vehicle test facility as part of some energy conference he was attending in Orange, California. SCE tested a fleet of these electric RAV4s by giving them to meter readers and tracking how they did.   All are going strong after 100,000 miles. The batteries degraded less than expected. They still hold 80-100 miles worth of charge after 100,000 miles. None has needed a brake job because of the regenerative braking. All this with NiMH batteries, nothing fancier. He calculated the cost of an overnight charge at about $2.70.  I wonder if he did the math right.  $2.70 for 80-100 miles.   

But you can't have one, that is unless you want to spend a fortune.

Last week I talked to a fellow ham on 75 meters down here.  He is in the oil business and had about 500,000 barrels that he has been trying to sell for a couple of weeks.  No one was buying because they had all they could store.  Refineries first then drill like hell was his advice.

Also the regionalization of fuel with different parts of the county using different blends drive up the price.  One blend everywhere could do a lot for those of you who live in the larger cities.

The key thing to remember is that the gasoline engine has survived because it's the most economical to manufacture of all the transportation technologies. Cheap to build, maintain and a century of expertise.

Add 20% for a diesel vehicle, 250% for your hi-tech RAV4s.

Disappointing ,but right now, the cost of fuel efficiency is as much as driving a guzzler.

Sheesh! We can't win...

Bring back the Stanley Steamers!

Or Tron's idea for a coal fired airplane!

YOU are the one who said the globalists run things. I don't see how contradicting yourself adds to the discussion.

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=16103.msg110193#msg110193

In case you forgot.

Actually, it's very simple.

Why we have an oil crisis 

A lot of folks can't understand how we came to have an oil shortage here in our country. Well, there's a very simple answer:

Nobody bothered to check the oil. 

We just didn't know we were getting low. The reason for that is purely geographical. Our oil is located in 
 

• Alaska
• California 
• Coastal Florida 
• Coastal Louisiana  
• Kansas 
• Oklahoma 
  
• Pennsylvania 
  
• Texas 

 
Unfortunately, Our DIPSTICKS Are located in 
Washington , DC !!!

Well I understand all this, and I understand the Lack of any real leadership or the desire to, But I really enjoy the performance of that little V6 in my Ranger and I just really like my little truck... :D

I'm just concerned that the cost of all this Individualism may very well bring on a serious recession...there is a possibility...then again with the way the economy werks..Now..it's a Tough Call...

Anyhow Back to werk...everybody be safe out there...

73.

Anger? Give it a rest, Bear.


If you hedged your bets towards oil always being less than $40 per barrel, then you made a risky choice. Don't bitch when the dice come up the wrong way.

By the way, you need to get in the habit of reading what I actually write. If you had, you would have read (several times) that my parents are not losing money on their oil stocks, and you would also have read (several times) that many retirees, not necessarily my parents in particular, have a signifigant share of oil stocks keeping them fed in the autumn years of their lives. Any attempts by Congress to limit that money only hurts those minority shareholders, the oil companies will keep doing what they do.

So your "spilt milk" speech is interesting, but pointless.

--Thom
King Abraham One Zebraham George Charlie

We've got plenty of oil in this country, if the "do gooders" did not have us hogtied over drilling in "sensitive areas". We'll lose the country rather than disturb a few nesting birds, go figure.

George Soros, who broke the Bank of England, has some interesting things to say about the price of fuel, see below.


" May 26 (Bloomberg) -- George Soros says speculators are a key cause of the sharp rise in the price of crude oil, the Daily Telegraph reported, citing an interview with the billionaire investor.

The Telegraph said Soros maintained that while the soaring oil price, which hit a record $135 a barrel last week, can be linked to the weak dollar, declining Middle East supply and rising demand by China, speculators have had a strong effect on the crude oil market.

The price increase has a ``parabolic shape,'' Soros said, noting that such a shape is ``characteristic of bubbles,'' according to the newspaper.

The oil bubble will not burst until the U.S. and Britain are both in recession, at which time oil prices may drop dramatically, the Telegraph cited Soros as saying. "

Wait till te oil Ba$turds gain control of all water rights

No the refineries haven't made "major" expansions. 10% to 15% at best. But that was whipped out with Katrina.

" refineries are operating at about 85% capacity."
 
No they ain't. They are operating at 100% present day capacity which is 85% PRE KATRINA capacity. EPA has rebuild permits tied up cause the refiners want to expand as they re-build. EPA don't like that so it's all wrapped up in court.

Now you know the real rest of the story.

Motiva in Port Authur, Texas is currently doubling the size of their refinery. Marathon is doubling the size of their refinery in Garyville, Louisiana. Pasadena Refining in Pasadena, Texas is doubling theirs. There are probably others. It dosn't look like their hands are being tied by the EPA.

Expansion is much more cost effective than a grass roots effort.

Darrell

You must mean 86 million BPD  ?

Alyeska Pipeline Service claims to have piped 21,591,166 Barrels in April alone.

Or what did I miss?

While we bitch about oil prices, in many parts of the developed world, our retail gas prices would be to die for.  It's running over $8 a gallon in UK now, and was about $5 a gallon when I last visited there nearly 10 years ago.

Most of us can recall the contrived shortage in the mid 70's, and the big push for conservation.  But once prices readjusted themselves, oil magically became plentiful again and conservation efforts were quietly abandoned.  But the buying power of the dollarette continued its steady decline, until the real cost of oil had dropped to rival what it was in the 50's.

This time, the shortage is probably real, due to worldwide demand and the rapid industrialisation of countries like India and China, and the real price is now close to double what it was in the 50's.

The worst thing we could do would be to wildly expand drilling and refining.  The inevitable result of unlimited supply would once again be abandonment of conservation efforts and we would quickly drain those new fields dry.  Look what happened to the North Sea reserves once they were exploited.  Our "40 year" supply would quickly degenerate to a 20 or 10-year supply as we would go back to wastefully doubling our energy usage every 10 years.

Better for those untapped reserves to be left alone for now.  They will still be there waiting for us in future decades when there will be a critical need for them, along with the likelihood that drilling and refining technology will be cleaner and more environmentally friendly by then.  Going full speed ahead to-day and drilling the hell out of the ANWR and our offshore reserves would be short-sighted, like the guy in his 40's or 50's who raids his 401K account to pay for the $80,000 sports car he thinks he needs to get him through his mid-life crisis.

Maybe we are in trouble now due to the oil shorage, but we would be in deeper trouble if there were no shortage.

Gas prices in Europe have always been high by our standards.   The main reason is that it is heavily taxed to help maintain the transportation system, including reliable and frequent rail travel.   The difference in price now is hard to compare because we are pricing their gas in our devalued currency.    Retrace the euro back from $1.60 to $.80 and you get a better idea what they are paying relative to us a few years back.

Hey Don, I'm moving to Venezuela. There in the SA People's Paradise, gasoline is only .15 a gallon.

So you are advocating for the economic suffering of those among us who are least able to cope with these high prices, the poor? Use the harsh force of Big Government to artificially keep the supply low & prices high?

 Rather cold hearted (Marie Antionetteish) on your part Don.   

Don said:
I  don't recall there ever being a shortage. The oil ministers have been saying that there is plenty of oil all along. The speculators are pushing the price up to the point where the market will bare it. Capitalism at its best(worst). I just checked Bloomburg and they showed that oil lost about $8/bbl. Let's hope this is the begining of the end of high oil prices.

For the week of 5-16-2008 U.S. refineries were operating a 88% (15.46 MBD). This is up from 86%  the week of 4-18-2008.

There are plenty of problems, but refining capacity isn't one of them.


Darrell

Obviously not, if the demand exceeds the supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

I was driving an Oldmobile Cutlass during the 73 crisis, 330 V8, four barrel -- thirsty for gas.   In Seattle we had even odd days for buying gas, a 10 gallon limit and long, long lines.   I was jealous of my friends who had smaller cars.   That 10 gallons went a lot further in my buddy's 4 banger Volvo.

I wasn't going to revisit this,.. But, it has to be said...with all the technology that is to be had today as compared to what alot of us grew up with and Enjoy so much "Hollow State"...obviously..

 It is actually, what is being contrived and executed at will on this planet, the continual battered Class Warfare State, in the ultimate in Greed scheme of things that is just maddening....

 When the Goal is to Defeat Gravity.....Locomotion through a field of force, wether on a Plane or Spherical Space....We have Gravity, We have an oxygenated environment, and We have Light...The mechanics are a Given....

I just don't understand it....that's all....at some point people Need to Stand up man...

"Re: Gasoline Madness;When to Stop?"

Anytime now.

I'll let my nephew at Marathon know they are expanding. After all, his name in on the rebuild/expand permit application the EPA has held up in court.

Oh... if capacity is not the problem why are we importing 15% of our GASOLINE ?

U.S. Weekly Total Gasoline Imports (Thousand Barrels per Day)
 
2008-Apr 04/04  907    04/11  950    04/18  1,006    04/25  1,385   

http://tinyurl.com/3r7yrn

Okay, so Fluor won a contract bid with Marathon to provide engineering design services. This means the design phase hasn't even started yet.

That's totally irrelevant to whether or not the EPA has blessed the expansion, or is holding it up in litigation.

It also means that by the time the expansion is complete and the refinery is up to its expanded capacity, the pricing trends in crude may have slowed, levelled off, or even started going down.

...or am I missing your point?

The only point was, and is, the fact that no grass roots refineries have been built in over 30 years is irrelevant. Oil companies don't build new refineries, they expand existing ones. This is something that has been going on over the past 30 years and continues today. With refineries operating at capacities in the upper 80%, capacity is not a cause of high gasoline prices.

Darrell

Bud, we get a lot of the above refined fuel from the huge Valero refinery on Aruba, a Dutch territory. It's the largest refinery in the Carribean. I personally don't think not being on the US mainland is an issue...Aruba just happens to be stragetically located near Gulf oil deposits and the USA.

Valero also recently bought the former Conoco refinery in Denver. Invested hundreds of millions in it. The Denver refinery gets its feedstock from Alberta tar sands oil and not so much any more from depleting local oil fields. Again, it's logistics, Denver has the largest refinery in the US that's geographically close to Alberta.

http://www.valero.com/AboutUs/Refineries/Aruba.htm

Why only in the upper 80's? Is this normal, up or down? What percentage is reasonably expected? With out that info, the 80% number doesn't meam much.

Oooo... that's OUTSOURCING! That's baaaaad!

Or so I've been told. ::)

Only if you consider the reasons why no new refineries have been built to be irrelevant.


Absolutely right, because that's what happens when you let the Jane Fondas of the world dictate your energy policy. Overblown (and often fictitious) environmental concerns trump keeping this country functioning. The empty can rattles the most.

Hell, you can't even build a windmill farm in this country without a bunch of yuppies complaining about the effects on their property values, or a bunch of hippies complaining that there's some remote chance that some migratory birds might have to fly around them.

Just because the oil companies haven't built a new refinery in decades doesn't automatically mean it's because they don't want to.


Do you recall the refineries that got flooded in Hurricane Katrina? They still haven't fixed all the damage yet. They're running in the 80s because it's physically impossible for them to run at full capacity.

You'd have to be extremely naive to beleive that refining capacity is not any kind of factor in gasoline prices. Go ask any economics professor.

--Thom
Killer Appetizer One Zesty German Chocolate

Even if a new program of refinery building were started to-day, it would take years if not decades to get them on line.  If they still haven't got the ones damaged by Katrina back into service yet, think how much longer it would be before brand new ones started from ground up would be operational.

Personally, I am much more concerned about the cost of heating fuel than the cost of gasoline.  When gasoline is cheap and in abundant supply, too much of it gets wasted.  The present "crisis" is déjà vu, right from the mid 1970's.  If this nation hadn't abandoned the conservation efforts that were initiated back then, as the eroding buying power of the dollarette gradually brought the real cost back down, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in to-day.

Not to worry too much, gasoline can be down blended to produce heating oil. 

Well, what is the outlook for any country if it is not for it's infrastructure, it's Growth...capacities..usages...etc..like any Flock the caretaker(s) have to design build feed show some care...it's business..

Like any Business, the point is to provide a product and create wealth...

I'm Not comparing this to the 70's..we're not comparing the Police Actions in place now to Vietnam...or is it comparable in terms of business I dunno..

I'm not under fire therefore I don't have the right, i can only go on what information is released and that, like any Information is handled and formed for release..like the figures for production I'm not there looking at the barrel counters.

But I do know what i see in traffic today, and it's not conservation...and I do know Facts and Figures can be Manipulated...control the Spigot, control the cost...

The Power Plant is in need of replacing...

Wait until you all see the price of tires..Almost double last summer.

Check out this article from my local paper this morning. (Rep-Am dot com)

Suing OPEC a feckless idea

Gasoline zoomed past $4 a gallon last week in Connecticut, nearly double what it was a year ago. These days, it's hard to find the silver lining around the cumulo- nimbus of energy costs, but here's one: People finally are beginning to realize a lot more goes into the price of gasoline than the cost of finding oil and pumping it out of the ground.

Motorists aren't falling for Congress' witch hunt of Big Oil executives because they know what's really going on. They realize state and federal taxes are a significant part of record gasoline prices; in fact, of all the entities in the chain, government makes the biggest profit. Moreover, they know government regulation, from the environmentally catastrophic ethanol mandate to requirements for boutique fuels to rules against more domestic exploration and production, add to the price, often unnecessarily.

Now Congress wants to add another layer of cost by bringing in the lawyers. The House has approved by a veto-proof 324-84 margin and sent to the Senate legislation that would allow the government to sue OPEC members under federal antitrust laws if it suspects they are colluding to limit oil supplies and set crude prices.

The thorny question of how the feds would compel lieutenants of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez or Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to appear in federal court is not explained. But Rep. Steve Kagen, D-Wis., said his bill "guarantees that oil prices will reflect supply and demand economic rules, instead of wildly speculative and perhaps illegal activities."

Actually, it only guarantees more misery for motorists. If Justice somehow could make sovereign OPEC nations subject to U.S. laws and then haul them before a federal judge, the cartel could retaliate by, well, colluding.

It could slash exports or curtail production at refineries it owns in this country. But if Justice somehow won — that's almost impossible given the oil market's global nature — and OPEC was compelled to pay financial penalties, the cost merely would be passed along to U.S. consumers. The fact is even if OPEC is colluding, the United States has almost zero leverage, thanks to exploding international demand for oil and Congress' refusal to permit more domestic energy exploration and development.

Rep. Kagen said Americans "are at the mercy" of OPEC. In fact they are at the mercy of a know-nothing Congress that thinks it can sue its way to lower energy prices.

NO politics, please!

Why didn't you say that to me when I posted about Congressional threats to limit profits of oil companies?

Ya know, this is not a perfect world. I'm not punching a clock and not always here.

Just try to remember, NO politics, especially the partisan kind.

So that means no political comments from third class members

I don't see any partisan politics in the article posted by Jared. It blasted Congress not a party or person.

Steve, please check the bucket.
Jared's post wasn't the issue.

To the ordinary user, it looked like you were admonishing Jared. We don't have access to "the bucket", so how are we supposed to know who you're scolding?

We're not punching a clock, and we're not always here, either. Sorry.

Must be a Colorado thing.

Let it go fellas. Bill was right and I was wrong. The offending post was deleted. Carry on.

Oh you know I never gave that a thought, Yes Sir the price of tires will go up..I never thought about that...I mean i realize prices are going to increase but just the way Bill put that..caught me right off guard...

I bought my tires last year; I saved money. Icoms are going up in price. Price increase on knobs and buttons.

I just got the monthly magazine our power company sends out.  In this month's issue is an article that explains why in the next decade, "US consumers will be exposed to rising and volatile electricity prices beyond anything experienced to date".  More electricity is being produced with natural gas, as nuke plants are slow to be built and approval of additional polluting coal fired plants is being halted.  Natural gas prices have risen 93 per cent since August 2007, well beyond historic averages.

As more electricity is produced with gas, we will start to experience price shocks on our electric bills and in the marketplace, where many products and their components are manufactured using natural gas.

US no longer has enough domestic natural gas to support its current growth needs, and Canada is lowering its export projections because it needs the gas for its own consumption.  This will leave the US dependent on imported liquefied natural gas, with the  largest natural gas reserves located in some of the world's most politically unstable areas.  And the US will have to compete for gas in the volatile global market.

I just heard on the news to-day that Dow Chemical is planning a 20% across the board increase (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/orl-prices2908may29,0,3234209.story) in the prices of all its products.  This will result in sharply higher prices for many household items in addition to gasoline and fuel.

The dollarette is losing buying power by the day.  Everything is going up in price; however, our salaries, wages and pensions are not increasing proportionally.  The bottom line is that most of us are now experiencing a drastic cut in pay.  In this state, due to falling tax revenues, teachers and other state employees may not be able to receive their promised 2% cost-of-living adjustment for the coming year.

Whopeediddle!

The Tire post caught me because as i read that the thought came to me I need to get a new set of tires for my youngest daughter Kimberly, on her cavalier..the need to do list of things popped up.

 I'm off today to get my Ranger serviced, I believe in that, Dealer vehicle servicing and following through on that schedule and keeping it documented, what ever the Dealers offer i take advantage of...it's there use it...

 On the economic side of things, pay increases are going to be a big topic, and a big question...what will be possible to get under this new set of circumstances..now that more is needed the usual or normal increases as always is never enough but now will be even less for the costs involved. another battle...and Fixed income takes another hit..

I do hope we're all equitably Happy out there, when all these increases take effect it's going to be a Circus..

 





 


 

Ah, the good old days of almost free diesel fuel are over.
----------------------------------

As Oil Prices Soar, Restaurant Grease Thefts Rise

By SUSAN SAULNY
Published: May 30, 2008

The bandit pulled his truck to the back of a Burger King in Northern California one afternoon last month armed with a hose and a tank. After rummaging around assorted restaurant rubbish, he dunked a tube into a smelly storage bin and, the police said, vacuumed out about 300 gallons of grease.
Nick Damianidis, an owner of Olympia Pizza and Pasta in Arlington, Wash., has had oil stolen.

The man was caught before he could slip away. In his truck, the police found 2,500 gallons of used fryer grease, indicating that the Burger King had not been his first fast-food craving of the day.

Outside Seattle, cooking oil rustling has become such a problem that the owners of the Olympia Pizza and Pasta Restaurant in Arlington, Wash., are considering using a surveillance camera to keep watch on its 50-gallon grease barrel. Nick Damianidis, an owner, said the barrel had been hit seven or eight times since last summer by siphoners who strike in the night.

“Fryer grease has become gold,” Mr. Damianidis said. “And just over a year ago, I had to pay someone to take it away.”

Much to the surprise of Mr. Damianidis and many other people, processed fryer oil, which is called yellow grease, is actually not trash. The grease is traded on the booming commodities market. Its value has increased in recent months to historic highs, driven by the even higher prices of gas and ethanol, making it an ever more popular form of biodiesel to fuel cars and trucks.

In 2000, yellow grease was trading for 7.6 cents per pound. On Thursday, its price was about 33 cents a pound, or almost $2.50 a gallon. (That would make the 2,500-gallon haul in the Burger King case worth more than $6,000.)

Biodiesel is derived by processing vegetable oil or animal fat with alcohol. It is increasingly available around the country, but it is expensive. With the right kind of conversion kit (easily found on the Internet) anyone can turn discarded cooking oil into a usable engine fuel that can burn on its own, or as a cheap additive to regular diesel.

“The last time kids broke in here they went for the alcohol,” said Mr. Damianidis, who fries chicken wings and cheese sticks. “Obviously they’re stealing oil because it’s worth something.”

While there have been reports of thefts in multiple states, law enforcement officials do not compile national statistics and it remains unclear whether this is part of a passing trend or something more serious.

The suspects in a growing number of grease infractions fall into a range of categories, people interviewed on the matter said, as grease theft is a crime of opportunity. They include do-it-yourself environmentalists worried about their carbon footprints, warring waste management firms trying to beat each other on the sly, and petty thieves who are profiting from the oil’s rising value on the black market.

“It’s a new oddity,” said Officer Seth Hanson of the Federal Way Police Department, near Tacoma, Wash. He said thefts occur outside at least a couple of restaurants there each week. “We’re trying to get an eyeball on how well-organized it is, if at all. To date, we haven’t been very successful in finding anybody.”

Thefts have been reported in at least 20 states, said Christopher A. Griffin, whose family owns Griffin Industries, one of the largest grease collection and rendering companies in the country. The problem has gotten so bad, Mr. Griffin has hired two detectives to investigate thefts around the country.

“Theft is theft,” said Mr. Griffin, who is based in Cold Spring, Ky. “I don’t care if you’re stealing grease or if you’re stealing diamonds.”

Fryer oil from a restaurant that does a high volume of frying one kind of food — for example, a fried-chicken chain — is at a premium because of its relative purity. The large-scale producers of grease, restaurants mostly, own their old oil and in recent months have even made a small profit by selling it to collectors.

Because of the grease’s rancid odor, most restaurants usually store it out back with the trash.

“Once you put something in the trash, it’s abandoned property,” said Jon A. Jaworski, a lawyer in Houston who represents accused grease thieves. “A lot of times, it’s not theft.”

Even so, most restaurant owners and grease collectors say that grease is not free for the taking.

“There’s a new fight for the product, definitely a whole new demand sector,” said Bill Smith, a market reporter for Urner Barry’s Yellow Sheet, an industry newsletter that tracks yellow grease. “Grease theft is becoming a bigger and bigger issue.”

I can remember when the power company would leave huge rolls of copper wire on the side of the road for weeks at a time during power line construction or overhauling, and no-one would bother it.

In the category of "You think you've got trouble"  get a load of the pain in Europe where they already drive small cars -- $8.20/gallon.  Check out the gas tax rates:  US 12%, Canada 27%, Britain, Germany, France > 60%.   Favorite quote: "... I try to be fond of the Warsaw metro"

Next will be an artilcle about how tough it is in the Middle East.  They just can't figure out what to do with all that money ...
-------------------------------------
BUSINESS   | May 30, 2008
Irate Europeans Protest the Soaring Price of Gasoline
By KATRIN BENNHOLD
European governments, already under pressure from slowing economic growth and falling tax revenue, are concerned that anger over higher gas prices could grow.

http://tinyurl.com/5osfm6

 It's amazing what will happen under stress, times of need..I was talking with my neighbor today on fuel and feed costs, our biggest Neighbor who manages quit a large acreage Dairy is consuming 5 grand a week just in diesel, and we're just going into hay season...when this catches up..? there will be more foreclosure's in the farming community...

 As far as Europe I have no opinion I'm not there I'm here, and here is original enough for me..

 

This is exactly the result the radical enviromenatlists seek: the death of the American economy. It's also the predicatble result of our politicians listening to their blather.
No nuke plants, no coal plants, no oil drilling, no new gas wells no nothing never.

Here's a petition we can all sign. Maybe it will help:

http://www.americansolutions.com/actioncenter/petitions/?Guid=54ec6e43-75a8-445b-aa7b-346a1e096659

I'd be more inclined just to Remind, Put Forth, and Demand Adherence to the Constitution of these United States...as a beginning...

Thanks, Don.

This is making me feel better about the furnace decision. The gas fired beast gave up.  The question was what to use as the booster for the new heat pump, natural gas or resistive heat?  Conventional wisdom out here is natural gas. I chose electric instead on the theory I can control that -- more solar panels if I have to but I have no control over the natural gas.   I checked with the solar panel company.  The price has stayed the same but they've gone from 205 watts per panel to 225.  I may strike now, boost the juice before they decide to boost the price. 

I cope by working on sales remotes almost every Saturday for a few extra $$. Like today, raise mast, turn Marti transmitter on, plug in a mic and headphones for the talent, do an aircheck, and off we go!

---------------------------------------------

"Hey, this is Les Nessman for KXYZ out at Cowboy Ford... Out on the Highway 85 bypass at Cheyenne, Wyoming!

We got yer F-150s... we got yer F-250s, we got yer Superduties, we got yer 6-speeds and sm-o-o-o-t-h Ford automatics!

We got deals!

You push, you pull, you drag in your trade and we'll give you a THOUSAND dollars trade for it!

Check out our 25 acres of used cars and truck, too, pardner!

We got a 1966 Ford Ranchero pickup for $3,995! We got a 1972 Chevy El Camino Cowboy Cadillac with all the extras like a beer cooler console, dog fence and a Hayes hitch for $4,995! We got a 1996 F-250 with a 20-foot sheep trailer for $9,950!

We got BoBo the clown, rides and hot dogs for the little buckarroos!

So c'mon down to Cowboy Ford, out on the Highway 85 bypass, east of town!"

(Puke Jock back at studio)
"Now, KXYZ kicks off its noon set with "How Can I Love You if You Won't Lie Down"

That has always been my philosophy, regarding stuff laid out on the kerb or thrown into the dump.  Now, municipalities are increasingly trying to make it illegal to dumpster-dive or pick stuff off the street on trash day, using the bogus argument that allowing people to pick through other people's trash is a violation of privacy and facilitates identity theft.

Hey Gary, Mark the Q remember "Cal Worthington" car ads LA early '80s???

Think gas prices are high? Try $11 in Turkey - and they have oil fields practically in their backyard.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24896249/?GT1=43001

Hey Guys! This is serious stuff! Have you even considered what this means to AM?
It means QRP with transistors instead of QRO with 813's!!! :'(

Untrue, this means shack in the living room to keep the family warm with heat coming off the rig. So stop talking dirty

QRP with transistors?  I guess you haven't visited Brent's website:  https://home.comcast.net/~w1ia/
   
Or how about http://amfone.net/Gallery2/v/stations/wa1gfz/gfz1.jpg.html

Frank's right, though.   Heat the house.  In the power generation business they call it "cogen" -- using the waste heat from power plants to heat buildings.  That's what we do.  Use the waste heat from radio operations to heat the house -- Radio Cogen.   Doesn't work so hot in summer.

Lindsey Williams talks about his first hand knowledge of Alaskan oil reserves larger than any on earth. And he talks about how the oil companies and U.S. government won't send it through the pipeline for U.S. citizens to use.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147

This bit of news should concern many AMers who live in the Northeast:


The Marcellus Shale is the latest huge thing in natural gas, considered by some to be a "super giant" gas field. Read more here http://www.petroleumnews.com/pntruncate/246893563.shtml

The edge of the Marcellus Shale in Northeast PA and NY is about 100 miles from NYC, which means the gas needs only a very short trip by pipeline to the major metropolitan centers.

So here are a bunch of "concerned citizens" planning to oppose it with all their might.http://www.damascuscitizens.org/
"The Damascus group has plans to pursue all avenues to stop the drilling, which include the use of moratoriums and other legal actions in the courts. It announced at the meeting that the group had enlisted the services of Richard Lippes, a renowned environmental attorney.

Hi Terry,

 I'm glad you brought that in here, Reason being there is quite a bit of drilling going on in my little area here, on Routes 136 and 980 in Pa. I have watched in the last year 12 wells go in, rather quickly I might add, and drilling is going on now...i wonder if that is connected..?..I wonder...I don't know alot about what is and isn't available and where...geographically..

 As far as any environmental impact(s), from what I've watched, we even took the kids for a ride to the one towards McDonald Pa, that's on site right now..And NO environmental damage from what we watched...Drilling is down to a Science ...I don't understand their bitching...excuse my French OM...When they're done the catch basins are cleaned up and the water taken away and the grounds returned to normal..for lack of a better word...

Those machines are inspiring to watch...especially at night...

that stuff in my pictures was built 12 years ago, it doesn't throw off much heat.

I don't know if this made the headlines, but locally a smart dude had one of those big pick-um-up trucks with duals and the "fifth wheel" hauling a huge box van. He would pull up over the fill ports of a gas station and siphon out thousands of dollars worth of Deisel fuel. I think they caught up with him from the station's showing the video from the security cam and the ever watchful public gave police a tip.

Fred

Thats kinda funny ... unless its your gas station.   >:(

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=90551&catid=3 (http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=90551&catid=3)


(http://www.wkyc.com/genthumb.ashx?e=3&h=240&w=320&i=/assetpool/images/080529114441_gastheft.jpg)

Frank,

Cal Worthington still had a dealership right off of I-405 in Southern CA, back around 2004. I think it may have been around the Lakewood area, if I remember correctly.

His TV ads were legendary.

73,

Bruce

$3.98.9 per gallon here in N. central Wva this Monday am.

Talking of going to $5.00 nationally this summer.

And interestingly WVa statistics claim a 4% decrease in sales from same time last year.
 Now they're bitching because they are getting less tax money than planned. ... this after the WVa yearly October ratchet for calculating tax rate which has increased every year.

Get'cha comin' and goin'

Turn off your A/C's; (remember those wire seat thingies?); roll down you winders, inflate your tires to 40 psi. and quit driving over 50... um hmm.   No loss of aerodynamics at these speeds with windows down.

Forgot where I was...
Oh yeah, one of the undocumented reasons for less WVa consumption in '08 is that everybody out of state knows it's high and plans to drive straight through.  Anyone living next to VA. just drives across the border. It's called voting with your feet... private enterprise rules even at pennies per gallon diff.

 

Gloom and Doom, or something worth pondering?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n3g5lUgkWk&feature=related

Morning Don...

Well... appears some other people aren't waiting around to find out...

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2008/06/07/s1a_dual_citizenship_0608.html

Morning,

 Like the man said though, recession first then production increase, the economic cycle is inevitable and purchasing power changes region. What weight is placed where and at what time is what's important..how liquid one keeps their portfolio is key..to be on the side that's winning....it's just money right...and through the whole of the discussion the key word is "Banks"...control the money control the region...Oh well, the IMF is isn't interested in my ability to eek out a piece of the American way...

 Getting back to Summer...I'm Noticing a Lack of Honey bees...I'm not seeing the usual amount I'm used to running into and stepping over in the yard...anyone else notice this..?...I'm Not seeing them....in the evening when usually looking at a patch of clover in the yard, in bloom, I'd see one or two honey bees bouncing from flower to flower...last evening again, and after it came to my attention i made it a point to sit in the yard till dusk and watch ..... not a one OM's, that's uncanny....it's bad enough trying to get rid of the clover and the dandelions but where's the Bees..?

Anyone who worries about dandelions on their lawn has too much time on their hands.

The Silence of the Bees
FEATURE ARTICLE - March 19, 2007 by Hannah Nordhaus

Scanning electron microscope image of a bee loaded with pollen. DARWIN DALE/PHOTO RESEARCHERS INC.
The perilous existence of a migratory beekeeper amid a great bee die-off
By the time John Miller realized just how many of his bees were dying, the almonds were in bloom and there was nothing to be done. It was February 2005, and the hives should have been singing with activity, plump brown honeybees working doggedly to carry pollen from blossom to blossom. Instead they were wandering in drunken circles at the base of the hive doors, wingless, desiccated, sluggish, blasé. Miller is accustomed to death on a large scale. “The insect kingdom enjoys little cell repair,” he will often remind you. Even when things are going well, a hive can lose 1,000 bees a day. But the extent of his losses that winter defied even his insect-borne realism. In a matter of weeks, Miller lost almost half of his 13,000 hives — around 300 million bees.


The rest of the article:  http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=16891


Talk about an ecological disaster.  No Bees= No Pollination= No Crops...

Not a single wild honeybee to be seen around the farm this year. There are a few solitary and bumblebees, though. Result: Six marble-sized green apples between our two large trees this year.

We are also "bee less" in central IL but between the other insects and the winds the apple and peach trees are loaded with fruit so far; we just need to avoid the severe drought mode again this year.  When I first bought my home in 1990 I remember having domesticated honey bees landing all over me as I mowed the pasture near the creek (lots of clover in the area) but so far this year I haven't seen a single honey bee.

The attached photo was taken a few years ago when my wife's garden was covered with bees every morning.  I hope that starts happening again soon.

Rodger WQ9E 

Evening,

 I know i shud be at the bench, But The same thing again this evening...Nothing not a one...First I thought it was me, or, to early in the season Now, i just don't know...I had my Diana sitting with me in our little Canvas Roofed Picnic area I put together for the kids and us, real nice Picnic table lawn chairs etc, and she thought i was teasing at first...Now she knows...we came in a little while ago..and that is Just uncanny...

No Disrespect meant for changing the thread..it was just something that is just a little unnerving...

Wow Cal is still in business. I remember him on TV in '81 with his pets.

Maybe the madness ends at $8/gallon:

UK petrol consumption down 20%

Apparently the famously inelastic price elasticity curve does have some give to it. Until now we all just suck it up, complain like crazy, maybe vote somebody out of office but in the end pay the price whatever it is and by and large keep doing what we're doing. The demand in the US is down a measly 4%. If I were Putin or Chavez, I'd be as happy as a pig in mud to see that I could double my price and only lose 4% of the business. 

But in Britain $8.62 a gallon triggered something.  Maybe that's the inflection point.  Maybe they can't push us past 8 bucks before something changes.   Won't that be fun $8/gallon?  Better than $10/gallon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/06/11/npetrol111.xml

What should really trigger the inflection point is the amount of time one engages in productive work to earn what it takes to travel a given distance with a given type of vehicle... call it miles (or kilometres) per hour of work, or make up a catchier sounding buzzword.

This would factor in rising prices, that bogus phenomenon known as "inflation", the current buying power of the currency, and salaries, wages and pensions (all three of which rarely rise enough to keep up with inflated prices).

So I've calculated the amount of time I have worked to buy a gallon of gas.

In 1967 with gas at $.30/gal I had to work 14.40 minutes to buy a gallon.

In 1981 with gas at $1.40/gal I had to work 6.48 minutes to buy a gallon.

In 2008 with gas at $4.00/gal I have to work 1.68 minutes to buy a gallon.

Now those numbers should be higher for 67 and 81 as I was buying gasoline with after tax dollars at that time. Today gasoline is a business expense so most is bought with pre-tax dollars.

I graduated from high school in 1967. If you haven't seen the number of minutes you work for a gallon of gas go down since you did, you are doing something very very wrong. You better figure out what it is because it is no ones fault but yours.

The best way to fix the problem of something being too expensive.............
is to figure out how to make more money.

The world in a huge conspiracy against you and playing the victim doesn't work. It's just stupid........but I agree it has LOTS of popular apeal, as can be seen on this thread.

73,
Marty

Member
American Association of Petroleum Geologists
Society of Professional Well Log Analysts
SEPM (Society for Sedimentary Geology)
American Geologic Institute
RMAG (Rocky Mountain Association of Geologists)
American Association of Stratigraphic Palynologists

Hey, Marty..

How can I get some company to drill an oil well here on the farm?

I own the mineral rights and there once was a gas or oil well about 1/2 mile SE of my property, long abandoned. Might be part of the western side of the Denver Basin here.

How does that all work? Bring a rig by!

You could be expected to have this time go down since high school, since your wages should reflect your productivity.

But for many people to-day, the curve has flattened out or turned upwards, even while increasing or at least maintaining the same level of productivity in their work.

That's great , good for you.

$143. an hour is a pretty good wage.

Around here, $14. is hard to come by.

Marty must work for an oil company to get $142 and hour.
 

Right, so now we complain about someone who went and got an education, worked hard and makes a good wage for himself?? 

Lets see, I make ~28 an hour. Which is about 2x what I made 10 yrs ago.  I didn't get that by waiting for my boss to give me another 0.05/hr raise.

Nigh school, education, change jobs when you have to (hey they'll lay you off when THEY need to so no problem jumping ship when I get a better offer, loyalty goes two ways in my book).

Yes, I have a morgage, 3 kids, one in University, and yea it hurts sometimes, but I'm still working to improve myself. 

When I worked at Penn State, you got a pension.    In later years you were stuck there and put up with a lot of crap because they knew you would not leave with only a few more years left.  What a relief it was to finally retire from that sort of situation.    People now have much more freedom to change jobs and make their lives better with the portable and self managed retirement opportunities like 401 and 403 plans.    If we get universal health care, you won't be stuck with an employer if you have a chronic health condition, providing even more employment freedom.

Yeah, this was my personal favorite. Pretty slick using the diesel engine to suck a vacuum on the storage tank in the trailer. No loud pumps whining, or other noise to attract attention. I had a piece of equipment with a diesel that started to runaway from engine oil bypassing the turbo bearing seal. I ripped off the air cleaner and the only thing handy was a chunk of cardboard so I stuck it over the air inlet to the plenum and the engine crinkled it up and sucked it in all is less than a second. It got jammed in front of the turbo and finally stopped the engine before it grenaded. Never saw anyting like it.

I am not surprised by your observation. The past two years here on the east coast (PA, NJ, DE, MD) produced less than normal counts on our sometimes pesky honey bees, however, this year (2008) I have seen much greater numbers in PA and NJ. One theory to the hive collapse(s) was a virus contracted from 'bee farms' internationally imported here. If so it certainly took a noticeable toll in the east but a rebound in numbers appears to be on its way.

DILLIGAF?

Your salary is no where close to the average Americans salary.  It's nice when one can sit in their ivory tower and look down on the little people until the day you become the little people.

OUCH, tough crowd. ;) It looks like he's a geologist, so that's probably inline for his type of work. I say congrats. Good thing he's not one of us sexy HVAC pro's, you guys would really be tearing him up. We wouldn't get out of bed for 143 bux an hour. $169/hr 1st hour PLUS parts and tax and fuel surcharge, yes, we are on our way. :P

If it makes anyone feel better, Joe Walsh (forgot his call) has to work 3.75 seconds to earn a gallon of gas.  ;D

Yes, if O gets in, we're all going to get it. So get in line and drop your drawers, because NOBODY is going to be exempt from a tax raping come April.

(I modified it, so you don't have to delete the post hidden post sniper, I saw that, lol.)

Ross Perot always was fond of charts.

Suicial Spending (http://perotcharts.com/challenges/)

Well, in 1980 a price of a gallon was what, and your salary was what, Today..? and I don't even want to discuss medical..at this point anything 12 dollars and under makes Welfare look mighty equitable, and more so depending on children.

Again yesterday in the paper somebody got punctured while sitting at their home...imagine getting up for work and being defeated before you start...

I remember hearing someplace that at the time Social Security was started,  the average life expectancy was 65, the age it kicked in.  It was a thin safety net for the few who lived longer and was supported by the many who were younger.  It's not that now.

Well the whole thing is a Mockery, and deregulation was demanded...wait till the electric is opened up..we're just seeing the beginning here.

Now if you happen to be on the supply side...hey life is good..business never been better...Demand is high.

Social Security was a big mistake on the part of the Gov, and the people for two reasons.

First, you just CAN"T TRUST the Governement with money, period, it doesn't matter what party is in control. (Something Trillion dollar DEFICIT???) (this is also what scares the HELL out of me about the Socialist Medical policies that some people seem to favor...)

Second,  You can't absolve a person of their responsibility to take care of themselves. Unless your desire is to have the populace become dependant upon said Government for more and more, which does make it easier to control the populace.

A better plan would have been one that encouraged savings with incentives (taxes etc) and provided education in financial managment.  Anyone with a full time job should be able to put some cash away.  It would not be easy, but it can be done. People would have to not have certain luxury items that Americans in general are just convinced that they can't live without. For example, Do you REALLY need Cable TV? (NO, but peer pressure says you do). Average Cable bill ~$100/month x 12 months = 1200/yr savings.  Don't even get me started on Cell phones... I hear some of the girls at work complain about how they have "no money" but have just spent X on a new cell with plan with phones for all the kids etc, or IPOD etc.  They HAD money, they just CHOSE to spend it on something they didn't really need instead of saving it and investing for their OWN future.

I agree. People seem to have lost all ability to manage money. Everyone's heard the saying, "Chicken today, feathers tomorrow."

I place some of the blame on the advertising that's stuffed into everyone's face every minute of every day, but that's only part of the problem. Credit cards have completely killed the savings account. People used to have to save money for a period of time to purchase a specific item they desire, now they just whip out the plastic, and carry they're new "un-necessity" out the door, and repeat the same ritual at another store, for a different item.

My personal experience with this is sorta amusing to me at least. Being an HVAC service company, I work on what's literally, "THE MOST EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT IN ALMOST ANY HOUSE", bar none. Forget the electrical, forget the plumbing and the lawn, and etc.... When the heating or cooling equipment goes down, this crap is expensive to fix. With expensive parts and labor, a small repair averages between 300-500 dollars and can go from there to the sky.

Now on to the example: I'll receive a call for a "no cooling" lets say. I'll get them scheduled, explain the cost's involved with a service visit, and they all set to go. I'll get there, they'll show me to the equipment, I'll troubleshoot it, and usually within a few minutes, I can give them a final cost to get the problem/failure fixed. (Here's the part that really gets me going.) First response, OMG, it's going to cost how much, I don't have any money, blah blah blah. Sometimes they'll say," Let me call my wife/husband", then they'll whip out a $600 apple iPhone or something like that.

I don't know if it's just me getting tired of hearing the same old broken record about being broke and so forth, yet, they have two brand new cars in the driveway, a monster TV, and all sorts of electronics, the latest cell phone, etc.., all the while, the heating/cooling equip is running with absolutely NO MAINTENANCE since new, and everyone's suddenly surprised when it digs it's own hole and crawls in.

I'm the kinda person that likes to help people. In the winter, if I get there, and I can clearly see they're just managing to get along, I'll do whatever it takes just to get the heat back on. I'm not the kinda jerk that'll walk away from a customer in need just because of a few bucks. I have more parts in my shop than most wholesalers and we can always manage to get something running, even if only temporary. We did a boiler a few years back for an old lady up the road from me. Her boiler crapped itself, she had no family around, and barely enough money on SSI to make it every month. I talked it over with another buddy of mine that's also bandaided this specific customers boiler a few times in the past. She was (passed away now) always so nice to us, never ever had a bad thing to say, so we decided to split the cost on a cheap boiler and go put it in. We showed up after working call all day at 8pm and she was there with electric heaters and a blanket. We left at 4am with the heat running and the house coming up to temp. True story. 

 

they always used to whine and moan about the money at the TV shop too.

Not to Change the subject, but where the hell's the savings bonds, man i had a slue of those at one time now you really don't hear much about em...Invest in the country man i always did that...then they hired some guru who knows everything and my company dismissed them...that really bummed me out... :(

Thats a great story.  I wish we could hear more of those than the crap that get's force fed about so called Celebrety ShizHeads...  Might actually inspire other people act humane to eachother for a change.


Unfortunately, savings bonds just don't pay enough anymore to attract a lot of attention. They are pretty safe (for now) but I think the HUGE deficit is scaring people away from investing in the country (Read that as paying more money to the guys in WASHINGTON who can't balance the checkbook). I used to buy them automatically when I was a young GI. cashed them in at the Federal Reserve Bank in Boston to help pay for the new Baby way back when...

Here's a vid a buddy sent me.

Your oil dollars hard at work. (pause button works if the reading is too fast for ya.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyMDnJEX5wQ

Fantastic Video, Capitalism at it's finest... ;D....look at that growth....

Looks good Jack......but what are they MAKING.

Nothing.

When their oil runs out they will be back in the Middle Ages.

Try and name one product the people of Dubai make or Arabs in general.

If you thought oil, American geologists and petroleum engineers have been producing that for them for many years. For all of history and today there are more rigs drilling for oil and gas in the U.S. than in the entire rest of the world.

America has more reservers in oil, coal, natural gas and uranium then all the "piss..ants" in the Middle East could ever imagine.

All we need to do is get to work, and develop it.

73, Marty

P.S. Bill KD0HG

Send me, by PM, the section, township and range of your property.
I'll check out all the data at the Oil and Gas Commission next week and let you know if I see anything that could be promising.

If there is, we will need to talk about possible options.

Could be nothing, or it could be good enough that because of what we have to do, you will learn everything about putting your own oil and gas drilling deal together.

Could make you money now, or teach you how to make money later.

73,

Marty, WB2RJR

Marty the problem is these XXXXXX are here buying up everything they can including the electric co. I get my juice from. So yes they will live in the stone age but rule here.

Another way to end the gasoline madness:  Print your power plant

New Thin Film Solar Cell Coater Reaches 1 GW Annual Output.

The San Jose-based company calls the machine a “milestone in solar technology” and while usually such language is standard PR hyperbole, considering that 10-30MW in annual production through other methods is usual, the 1 gigawatt annual throughput of this coater really is a cut above.

Nanosolar says the way in which it can achieve such high levels of production is through its proprietary nanoparticle ink, which allows them to simply print their highly efficient (up to 14.5%) solar cells at rates up to 100 feet per minute.

The cost of the coater is $1.65 million, which is significantly less expensive that vacuum process tools, as well as being much faster in operation.

Nanosolar began shipping its first panels last December.

Cool video:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9972306-54.html

longer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDPdBdFHTSM

Batteries. We need better batteries then sayonara to this whole internal combustion business.  Dubai can keep their damned oil, Putin too, and the Saudis.

Marty, I've sent the info to you via PM...Look for  it...

HG

What we need to do is build nuke plants and save liquid fuel for cars and trucks. Or go after the frozen gas off the coast. Everyone went for oil in the middle east because it was easy to find and the idiots in charge were even easier to bribe.
We need to stop sending our cash outside this country and balance trade or we will become surfs in time
It is finally nice to see all the wind and solar stuff taking off but we need to make sure they are not owned by the same sleeze balls screwing us now.
Wait till the pinch off supply- create demand gang has all the water rights.

You're never going to own a nuclear power plant. They'll be owned by the usual suspects.  But you can own PV panels on your roof.  If you had an electric car you wouldn't need to tank it up at Exxon-Mobil or from your friendly local utility.  Good PV panels are here now.   Cheaper ones are on the way. All we need is better batteries for cars & trucks.  Leave the liquid fuels for planes.

But the "usual suspects" will still build the cars and the batteries. You'll never be free.

The immediate answer is to buy a used car that gets good gas mileage.

Tom Friedman summed it up very well on NBC this morning on how the pushers keep the junkies hooked. (for the past 30 years)

Yup. No one used oil before 30 years ago. Friedman is an idiot.

Nothin' wrong with using oil.
The Washington pinheads have the country pissed at the oil companies when this whole mess is their doing.

Last month the gas profits were just over 5 cents a gallon.
The Washington pinheads took in their 18 cents a gallon and wanna put another 35%+ winfall tax on the 5 cent profits.

That means for every million gallons:

Oil Industry ......... $50,000.00 (for getting the oil, refining it, trucking it to your nearest station so you can go get a beer)

Washington Pinheads........$180,000 (for doing nothing)

Now , think about it....... who's raping who ???

hint: it ain't the oil companies !!


DRILL HERE>>>> DRILL NOW>>>>

How do you figure that when the oil pigs make 10%
I agree drill here but the people who have oil drilling contracts are not interested. Limit the supply, raise the price.
Pin heads need the cash to pay other pin heads to think like pin heads
Watch the price drop as soon as somebody figures out how to eliminate the need. That is why the camel jocks plan to increase the flow because people are so stressed out they stop buying the oil.

If you squeeze them hard enough, maybe there's oil to be found in the blubber?

That's the problem, Bill.
When you talk to people it's everyone elses pinhead that needs squeezed.
So you end up having the same pinheads in Congress for 40 years.

Build a Boat

Dearth of Ships Delays Drilling of Offshore Oil

As President Bush calls for repealing a ban on drilling off most of the coast of the United States, a shortage of ships used for deep-water offshore drilling promises to impede any rapid turnaround in oil exploration and supply.
...
But even as oil trades at more than $135 a barrel — up from $68 a year ago — the world’s existing drill-ships are booked solid for the next five years. Some oil companies have been forced to postpone exploration while waiting for a drilling rig, executives and analysts said.

http://tinyurl.com/5466y6

This is the very definition of windfall profit.

The oil companies' profit margins are far lower than many industries, like IT, software, hedge funds (something like 80% profit margin). Some people have fallen for the demonization of the oil companies. You would all be dead without them.

No talking about president pin head that is political.

[So you end up having the same pinheads in Congress for 40 years.]

Do the words, "term limits", ring a bell?

mike

Well, back to gasoline.......

Just completed a 5,222 mile trip by car. Highest price paid $4.349 in Washington state. Lowest price paid was in Iowa or S. Dakota at $3.799. The average advertised price was $3.983.

It's a good thing we got 31.23 mpg average! This would have broken me in the motorhome!

Is it just me or has anyone's fuel economy of their vehicle decreased noticeably? I am unexplainedly and suddenly down from 15MPG to 13.5 with the pickup truck in city driving. Me, or a change in the fuel?

I noticed that too, Op, on my bikes, I'm a freak on Spark Plugs, monitoring performance and it's nothin for me to go through 3 maybe four sets in a summer..sometimes five depending on riding conditions and Fuel, and i have noticed on my plugs a difference... If you ride bikes you know what i mean..and it shows on the deposits..Ashy bad burn deposits..... the gas today is Junk...

Just a few items probably found in your home or used by you on a daily basis made from {evil} oil.

• Milk jugs
• Shaving cream
  
• Trash bags
• Linoleum
• Electrical tape
• Fertilizers
• Asphalt ( the very roads you drive on)
• Wax (candles, lubricant, protect your car, furniture, etc)
• Roofing materials - tar paper, shingles
• Many parts of clothing - buttons, synthetic materials in apparel and shoes, etc.
• The case your computer is in, and the monitor, keyboard, slopbucket rig.....
• Numerous pharmaceuticals, medicines, health and beauty products (toothpaste, shaving cream, shampoo, moisturizers, soap, etc.)
• Insulation on all the wire in your shack and the electrical wiring in your house
• Ammonia and and cleaning product with ammonia
• Many inks and dyes
• Caulking
• Many adhesives and  glues
• Lubricants (not only your car but for your heater/air conditioner in your car and your house, exhaust fans in your house, motors in dishwashers, washing machines, dryers, and big AM mauls......)
• And the diesel fuel that  powered the trains and trucks that shipped all that stuff to the  store where you bought it.

Yep, them damn oil companies are screwing us good.

 Maybe we should send all our jobs to China so they will have all the money to buy all the oil. We can all live side by side in cardboard boxes on the White House Lawn till the towel heads throw us out.
The bottom line is our pin head government is again clueless.

The government made you buy all those things made from oil?

Mind control from cell towers.

http://mirrors.wordsforgood.org/educate-yourself.org/mc/index-2.html

The retailers (filling stations, Quick-Stops) say they are hardly making any profit, or in some cases, are losing money selling motor fuel.  The wholesalers that supply the filling stations say they are merely passing the extra cost on to the customer to avoid losing money.  The oil companies are blaming the high price of crude for driving up the price.  Yet they are reporting record profits despite the recent drop in consumption.

That extra profit has to come from somewhere.  They can't be merely passing on the higher cost of crude to their customers.

Record in what way? Total dollars. So what? They had record volume. Their margin is unchanged. Don't fall for the bogus news reporting. Most reporters can't count to 10. How could they possibly report on detailed business financials?

Well.... buy a Horse then, enjoy the open air, learn how to really "saddle up", and understand what One Horse power really means....the only output, a negligible renewable resource... "cow paddies", ...LOL... ;D

Nobody is forcing anyone to drive their gas guzzling buggies...

So what !
And.... who are "they" ??
Plus, we ain't the only nation using petro products. A great deal of "their" profits come from sales NOT in the U.S.

And since when is "making a profit" a bad thing ? (I guess the answer is; when "they "make it and I don't)
That attitude reminds me of the people the government and media have hating "The Rich". They piss and moan while standing in line to buy their lottery ticket so they can be what they hate !!!

If profits go up by large amounts each quarter while flow remains about the same please explain your new math on how the margin remains the same.

Not new math - old math.

Example:

First year:  Sales = 10 million gallons @ $3.00 per gallon = $30 million @ 10% profit margin = $3 million in profit.

Second Year: Sales = 10 million gallons @ $4.00 per gallon = $40 million @ 10% profit margin = $4 million in profit.

Profit went up $1 million or  33.33% while Profit Margin (10%) stayed the same.



 

Get the book Innumeracy for more.


http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mathematical-Illiteracy-Consequences-Vintage/dp/0679726012

HUZ is right on the money.

I also don't see anyone talking about what the rest of the world (except for Saudi Arabia & Venezuela) pay for fuel. We have been getting by on the cheap for years. My daughter lives in Spain and what we pay here is a bargain compared to what most of Europe or the UK pays.
I would love to see $2 gas but it is forever in the rearview mirror. All the crap about price relief and a gas tax holiday is pure political bribery. People that fall for political bribes and phony scapegoats are scarier than ANY politician.
I could see this coming years ago and when I broached the subject, along with the fact that so much of our transportation & recreation is based on cheap fuel, people looked at me like I was from Mars. This dawned on me when I was in a country where electricity and cooking fuel were only used when absolutely necessary, and casual driving wasn't even an option. The cheap stuff from Wal Mart is also going to slide into the past as the dollarettes continue to shrink and the world playing field evens out. Speaking of the dollar slide--this has hurt China far more than us. They are sitting on Trillions of $ that are now worth far less than 2 years ago. This was a calculated move that forcibly changed the exchange ratio.
my $2 worth

 WASHINGTON -- Gasoline should cost about $2.25 a gallon at the pump, and everything above that is "funny money" largely tacked on by speculation and manipulation in the energy markets, a consumer advocate told a Senate committee Tuesday.

"The speculative bubble in energy commodities has cost households, on average, about $1,500 over the past two years in increased costs for gasoline and natural gas," testified Mark Cooper, director of research for the Consumer Federation of America.

The total cost to the U.S. economy has been more than half a trillion dollars, he said.
 As retail gas prices reached a record high for the 26th time in 27 days, Cooper was among several experts who told the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation that speculators are helping push up prices.

Cooper said the recent $120 price for a barrel of crude oil could be split into thirds: $40 for the true economic cost, $40 added by OPEC and $40 due to speculators.

"Excessive speculation on energy trading facilities is the fuel that is driving this runaway train in crude oil prices," said Inland Oil Co. President Gerry Ramm, who spoke on behalf of the Petroleum Marketers Association of America.

read more at:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20080604/ai_n25485344

Well there it's identified... Finally..."Largely By Speculation"...wonderful, now
everybody knows...we all understand right...? The Bad Guy has been found...

Now, What'er ya gona do..?..with this new found information...really...


What's needed...
Absolutely Nothing... is what people shud do, But, Nobody's Listening...just stop, say No, stop the country like France did...just wake up one day an say...I'm staying home Today...wow that's hard... Possible outcome..?..being arrested for staying home an protesting "Price Control"... naaa... losing your home for missing a few days work...naaaa....

or...

Stand back and watch like everybody else...Bitch..moan an groan..

or..

Gain a better Income Resource and Compete Financially and Economically...and become part of the system... Individualize Yourself... great for the one, by does nothing for the many...who cares anyhow...

Responsibility.... is an amazing thing... The worst of which is being reminded...folks hate that... ah well...

I didn't create this...but I Can See through it....Who's Country is this anyhow...?

I don't buy it, not for the long term. If the underlying market fundamentals aren't there, the higher prices won't be supported. We just saw this in the housing market. Speculation is just betting which way the market will go. The reason everyone is betting the price will go up is the underlying supply/demand for the product.

Every commodity in the world is speculated/bet on, corn, wheat, beef, coffee - you name it.

Corn's up 80% over last year & has tripled in three years. "Evil" corn speculators - no market fundamentals.

Don't be a dupe.

so how is it whenever these towel heads get in a jam we come running to us toprotect them. Screw the rest of the world we provide protection we should get a deep discount.
WE NEED OFEC (org of food exporting countries)

If the dollar had not been devalued relative to the rest of the developed world's currencies, due to deficit spending and low interest rates, gas would be about $2 a gallon, even with all the other reasons for the increased cost.    The higher gas prices in other countries is due to 50% to 75% taxes.    These taxes go to support their transportation infrastructures, including bus and rail transportation.    Not sure I would like those taxes, but a good rail system would look here and now.

You mean use our guns as "persuasion tools" to force the price lower? You don't approve of our government acting like bullies to get a cheap price on oil, remember?

Oh, nevermind.

I thought the most important lesson congress got (and ignored, I'm sure) is that rising demand will always overcome stagnant supply. Now we have the political parties each choosing a different approach, and ruling the other approach out as though they're mutually exclusive. They're not.

There is no reason whatsoever we can't bring alternative energy sources to bear and drill for oil in new places at the same time. The guys in Washington just don't care. They're only doing what they think the voters want them to do, and they're scared to death that if they stop and say "hey, why can't we do both" they'll be run out of office.

I wonder what the per-day price tag is on these Washington hearings? I wonder what would happen if that money were invested towards potential solutions instead of a congressional photo-op bitch-fest?

Too late for that. Uncle Sam bought out all the passenger rails because they were going bankrupt, now everything's state-controlled (in other words, hopelessly inefficient). Don't expect anything smart from Amtrak.

We've got plenty of cargo travelling by rail, but even that will be severely disrupted thanks to the flooding in the midwest.

I didn't say use our guns....Just tell them next time don't call on us then go to France for vacation while the US mil does the dirty work....you know like in '91
Where is Kuait you know our fair WX friends in all this.

An Above ground MagLev Public system of transportation would be a wonderful step, I've always wondered what happened to that Idea, leave the rails for the Heavy Transport.

With Above ground many obstacles can be over come, Highly efficient, Board Platforms can be placed anywhere...Maintenance and Material Accessibility would have a good mark, To much is wasted on Platform Road Public Busing, it is Inefficient...and a waste of fuel...

Underground is Fine in certain metro areas but with above ground, the sky's the Limit...



 

Chinese maglev running to Shanghai Airport:

http://www.gluckman.com/Maglev.html

Citing Need for Assessments, U.S. Freezes Solar Energy Projects

http://tinyurl.com/4sfnxm

I find this pretty amazing. 

K6JEK,

Oh NO!!!!!!!!

Now Mr. "You should buy me solar collectors to put on my house" is having his pet project gored by the enviro-wackos.

Welcome to the club.

BTW, no one in the gov't, federal or state has ever given me a "rebate", "credit" etc. for drilling an oil or gas well.

It is my understanding that part of the cost of the solar collectors on your house was paid for by forcing people to give you money through the government.

You might have to pay $4.00/gal for the oil I find, or $12.00/mcf for the natural gas..................but I'm not forcing you to buy it..........and unlike you, I'd NEVER consider TAXING PEOPLE TO MAKE THEM DO WHAT I WANT.

I am one of the 1,000,000 people who are employed in the oil and gas industry in the U.S.

AND.......I don't think I, or anyone else, should have to pay a dime so you can have solar collectors on your house.

What's the NTIR and the AARR on your solar stuff someone else paid for? 

73

Marty

The enviro wackos are the Bureau of Land Management. I remain amazed.

I did get a rebate on the solar panels but the rebate came from Pacific Gas & Electric not the government. The solar panels are peak generators. They produce max power right during peak demand reducing the need to build and run expensive peaking power plants. Nice of me, huh? I don't know if this completely justifies the rebate but that's what they said when PG&E sent the check.  I was happy to take it. They should be happy too. I'm generating more power than I'm using and they get the excess free.

There are significant breaks given to big oil companies.   Maybe you just need to be bigger to take advantage of the largess.

BTW.  That's not my pet project

What are these?

I'm curious about that myself.   The current issue of the Economist, June 21 -27, hardly a liberal rag, says this:

"American oil companies receive preferential treatment from their government worth more than $250 billion a year."

But it doesn't elaborate.  I'd like to know.   This issue has a special section on energy which covers everything from nuclear to biofuels and everything in between.  Perhaps if I dig a little deeper I can unravel that $250 billion.

Exxon alone paid $30 Billion in taxes in 2007.  The urban legends and mythology surrounding the oil companies is astounding.

And bless them for it. That doesn't mean they didn't get preferential treatment from the government.  I don't like quoting second sources so I will see where the Economist got the $250 billion per year number.

I notice the new issue of Consumer Reports has a similar claim.  They say

"The U.S. Government supports the oil industry with billions of dollars of direct and indirect subsidies. ... Those subsidies have included income tax breaks, tax-free construction bonds, and below cost loans with lenient replayment terms"  -- Consumer Reports, August 2008, page 65

That's a little more concrete but I'd like to see the details. Still, neither the Economist nor Consumer Reports is known as a purveyor of urban legends and myth.

And you know what?  Maybe this has been the right thing to do, to use our tax dollars to encourage the oil industry. Now, however, I think it might be time for some new stuff too.

Even if true, this is meaningless without context. Other industries and businesses get similar breaks. Unless oil companies get disproportionately more given the amount of taxes they pay, it comes off as more typical oil bashing by know nothings and politicians.

Even your use of of the phrase "preferential treatment" is baseless. If others get similar breaks, it's not preferential. As far as income  tax breaks, we ALL take advantage of whatever we can when it's tax return time. Pointing it out when someone else does it seems hypocritical.

Yes, exactly.  Many industries get special breaks.  If you google "oil industry subsidies" as I did you'll be inudated with studies that say the oil indsutry gets better breaks than other industries.  This is reflected in their overall tax rate, which seems to be about 7% lower than the other guys.  And there are many breaks that simply don't apply to widget manufacturing so they are hard to compare.  Read a dozen of these studies and judge for yourself.

Gosh folks. Can we stop this?  Way back someone accused me of wanting to tax others to pay for my solar panels.  Exactly the opposite is happening.  I paid my hard earned cash for my solar panels.  My local utility company gave me rebate.  Thank you.  Your tax dollars were not involved.  No one gave me an interest free loan.  I do not get a preferential income tax rate. I have no lobbyist in DC. In the meantime, my tax dollars are subsidizing the oil companies, which is deemed OK because other industries are subsidized too.  Most analysts think  the oil companies have the best deal period, a better package of tax breaks, free loans and other goodies than anyone else.  I didn't even say that was a bad thing. But let's not pretend that giving a few breaks to say the solar thermal guys (not my pet project) is wild and crazy, unheard of, and unfair to hard working fossil fuel guys. The new guys just want to get in on the gravy train that is our federal budget, a gravy train which my solar panels have nothing to do with.

Personally, I think we'd all be better off with less concentrated everything, less big oil, less centralized power,  less big lobbyists, less big government, less big deficit, a little more local everything but I'm just old fashioned.

What the Market Bares is relative and a given, and Still Nothing from the Fed Reserve, the creator of the overall problem, if folks would take the time in this country and understand how currency werks, ah well.....it's beyond me..witch hunting Business isn't the answer...

I have however been starting to hear and read some issues on Homebrew Diesel, it seems it's coming to light "to the Tax Minded"... in some states...I am looking for more articles on the net in regard to this.

We Can't have our citizens home brewing fuel now can we..? We can't have them adapting and improvising...Oh No no... 8)

In his next post K6JEK is:

1.) Going to list all the oil companies who received government backed interest free loans.He has said this more than once, I want to see it backed up. Should be no problem as he has been saying it over and over.

2.) He is going to give us the specific IRS rules which allow us as a "oil company" to be taxed 7% less than anyone else. ( the accountants which do my income tax are really interested in this one)

3.) K6JEK is going to show us the EXACT way oil companies received money from the government.

Steve has asked K6JEK basically for this and he has not delivered.

K6JEK has done arm waving and liberal mumbo-jumbo.

K6JEK........... PUT up or Shut UP.

I want to see EXACTLY how this crap you claim about oil companies HAPPENS.

I remember a news story from a while ago that the oil companies somehow do not pay royalties on oil from the Gulf of Mexico.    I don't remember the details, but it goes back to the early '90s.     I think it was something to do with the fact the government didn't bill them for the royalties.

K3ZS,

I guess you have never sold oil or gas from a well. If you do, you find out real quick that the person buying it wants to see the Division Orders. They list all the owners and Royalty holders in a well.

You see the company buying my oil or gas does not give me the Royalty interest share or any severance taxes.......they pay that directly to the state or the Royalty interest holder.

So if the Federal Government is the Royalty Interest Holder (average 19% on all government land, 37.5% on new leases) an oil company would NEVER see this money. It is sent directly from the company buying the product to the government.

When you read this story about Oil Companies not paying Royalties to the Government......you didn't ask the question........How the hell could this have happened given the way these payments are set up.

Anything is possible........but if you get caught pulling a scam like this YOU WILL BE IN PRISON.

Like I said, I didn't remember the details about the royalties.   Since my last post I tried looking up what I had heard.    Apparently it was a big screw up on the part of the federal government of not enforcing or collecting royalties from Gulf of Mexico oil, from whoever they were suppose to collect them from.    I am no expert, just stating about what I thought I had heard on the news years ago.    I am sure part of my state pension fund benefits from some of this, in fact the Pennsylvania State retirement fund is one of the best performers.

Oil getting tax breaks?  Preferential treatment of $250 bil.?  So $30 billion should be $250 B?

Sort of like the perpetual "going out of biz sales" one sees advertised, guess who discounts what's marked up in the first place?  Yeah, your friendly thieving government aided and abetted by jealousy, egalitarianism run amok, and a very good example of "bite the hand that feeds you."

"Big Oil" is the absolutely most efficient producer, processor, distributor and marketer of any essential product in the world.  Similar to any utility, be it water or whatever, it's taken for granted and eventually demanded as a Right.  Why do you think the speculators are riding the oil wave in the first place?  Because they recognize absolute value when the see it, especially in a world of real estate bubbles, monetary inflation caused by clueless governments, and yes, sure... human nature being what it is, just a touch of greed.  You might also wish to see what business pays the best, all across the board, not just upper mgt. and CEO's... See what starting salaries for petroleum engineers are in comparison to say, electrical.... uh, and hate to say it but, say, civil. 
    As I've mentioned before in another thead, the industry can't find enough drillers, tool pushers, rig hands.. you name it, let alone professionals.   

Granted even oil can have a modest bubble, but right now it's riding the same wave as gold, silver, copper,...   Sound like junk metals?  ... of course not.  Pork bellies... well maybe, but then again it's a food product with all the production energy entailed...  and based on corn, n'est ce pas?...   

Couple those cost factors with real costs being manipulated by politics and you have a great receipe for buying stock in BP, Exxon-Mobile, Royal Dutch Shell....     Hmmm, too bad the majority of oil business is no longer in the U.S.  Great theater though, roasting a bunch of U.S. CEO's in front of an ever stupider congressional committee.  Well your congressmen sure know their audience...     yeah, when a majority party is committed to keeping you stupid, divided, and constantly clamoring for more heads.

Anyone who believes "lesser" taxes than paid by others are a break for a business ought to really think about who sets tax rates in the first place and then who pays them. 

So again, a discount?  From what?  (Hint - think arbitrary, capricious and unenlightened. )

My instruction in petroleum engineering came from an era when drillers (risk takers) got a 27 1/2% depletion allowance. That "largess" was tempered by various state agencies such as the Oklahoma Interstate Compact Commission, The Texas Railroad Commission, etc., which commissions also set "allowables," i.e. you were only allowed to produce so much per well in the interest of conservation of pressure, spacing of wells and efficient reservoir draw-down   Yeah, that's when governments still had intelligent agents who knew the difference between real conservation and feel good, political "green."  They were (surprisingly like your 'hated' Saudis) interested in preserving their tax base for as long as possible.  The by-product was hoped for reasonable price fluxuations.   Even so, oil prices rose and fell, drastically on a roughly 20 year cycle.  Boom or bust....
I digress.

Well "we've come a long way baby."   Every business these days is suspect by at least two generations raised as good little communists in schools based on cradle to grave liberalism, a philosopy that doesn't know the difference between capital generation vs. jobs that are 'rights.'    Paying "your fair share" even though anathema to earning your own way is now just the latest euphanism for increasing taxation of the ever smaller proportion of decent workers, earners and savers.  Yeah, "tax 'em 'till they squeek."

Knee jerk reaction to price fluxuations by taxation will always (yes, always) yield lesser of the commoditiy regulated and taxed.  Long term it will also always guarantee higher prices to the ultimate consumer.  Us.   If world forces drive up prices, taxation and over-regulaton will always drive it up more.

So if you want some relief from spiraling costs, a refreshing way might be to lower taxes on the business providing the world with plentiful oil and products.  And while we're at it, bring back intelligent regulation if we must, that which is based on true conservation.   Open up exploration to the true risk takers. Forget the  faux cosmetics of perceived off-shore blight ( they're really out of sight production platforms.)

Think positive; think long term.  Down with the "we can'ts."
 
Plan for the long term instead of using, proposing ever more oil tax money for ever epanding wellfare; use it for subsidizing, say a Hydrogen economy, or nuclear, ....something positive.   Give, say, nuclear waste your best shot, don't demonize it out of hand.

The world will eventually run out of oil; but if you intelligently reduce anything by a fraction of a percent per year, it will last to infinity....   That is after you can prove that reserves ARE dwindling.  They aren't and haven't been despite many cycles of naysayers projecting such for as long as I can remember and for as long as the history of oil production.   Radio amateurs, of all people, ought to be for technology.

Of course there's always a real break point to sharply cut off an infinite decline rate dream,  but contrary to what your media bathes you in.. it is a long, long way off.   China and India will choke on their own fumes if they don't observe some true conservatism..   Things have a solid habit of rightening themselves if not fueled by a scared populace driven by controlling media and innumerate (lnumerically illiterate, -thanks Steve) politicians.   

This is probably what you're thinking of.   Below the headlines then links to the complete stories:

An attempt to keep oil companies from reaping as much as $10 billion because of an error involving royalty payments is gaining momentum in Congress.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200341,00.html

House rolls back oil company subsidies (see 3rd paragraph from end)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-18-house-oil_x.htm

Big Oil Subsidies Dodge the Ax
http://washingtonindependent.com/view/big-oil-subsidies

I saw this interesting story in the online Chicago Tribune..

"...Some experts say high energy costs are altering global trade and slowing the pace of globalization.

It takes about 7,000 tons of bunker-fuel to fill the tanks of a 5,000-container cargo ship for a trip from Shanghai to Los Angeles. Over the last year and half, the cost of that fuel has jumped 87% to $552 a ton, according to the World Shipping Council, boosting the cost of a fill-up to more than $3.8 million.

"To put things in perspective, today's extra shipping cost from East Asia is the equivalent of imposing a 9% tariff on East Asian goods entering North America," said Rubin of CIBC World Markets. "At $200 per barrel, the tariff equivalent rate will rise to 15%."

..Local ports could lose business if shipping costs get so out of hand that companies begin shifting production back to North America from Asia -- something that's happening in the steel industry, Rubin said..."

-------------------

This never occurred to me..That at some point it might again be more cost effective to produce something in the CONUS than to import it. I can see lots of potential angles to this shift, the next decade is certainly going to be interesting; there's going to be opportunities that no one's thought of.

-Bill

Or else go back to sail ships.  A decade or so ago I recall a prediction that just that would happen, and that navigation by sail would become more reliable and efficient in the future, aided by computerised technology.

The ultimate folly has to be importing bottled water from Europe.  Not counting  transoceanic transport cost, it has been estimated that the total amount of energy used to produce and deliver one bottle of water is the equivalent of filling the same bottle a quarter full of oil.

And He carries a Good Light with Him, FBOM  W3RSW from KA3ZLR...and that's exactly how I would have responded on the air, there's no use quoting it, dissecting it, But Read it and Understand...Good Civics Lesson from Rick...well done...

All For Technology here OM....Think Positive Dudes...Excellent... :)

Thank you.

Field Day made me do it.  ;D

It's funny how much baseless T-rash one goes along with until the laser points in the direction of one's expertise.  One of my Uncles taught me a valuable lesson along that line when I was a lad spouting the latest pollution solutions learned in school.  "Hell Kid, you live in the cleanest world ("environment" not yet used in our context) I could ever imagine.  When I was a kid you had to dodge the chimney cinders when walking down the street. If you worked in town and were lucky enough to wear white shirts,  you had to take a change with you to put it on around noon."   Then he'd go into laughing detail about the sun not coming out in Pittsburgh.  I'm sure a lot of his stories were from others but he made the point.

What worked the miracle of modern Pittsburgh (uh, cough, even before the steel mills were de-nutted by the combination of high labor and raw material costs and rampant environmental control) was natural gas, the piping of the city.

 Technology! - and 19th century at that, finally applied in the 20th displaced the open burning of coal.  Ok, some of the environmental controls were needed at the mills but wise thinking city and county fathers worked together, funded solutions together, made the tough decisions required including unpopular condemnations, demolitions and triage control of businesses.  It's been labeled a working miracle, the marriage of business and government. 

Now we live in a great nation fueled largely by coal.  -Contained and de-sulpherized oxidation of very high BTU fuel.  First the ash was demonized.- Easy fix, not too expensive per KWH for fly ash scurbbers.   Next the sulphur compounds were demonized. - Very expensive fix to reduce back to elemental sulphur.  Oh what's left? Why the very carbon itself.... Yeah, that's it, we'll tax the carbon in the name of clean green.  Believe it or not you already pay a tax on the energy, the heat itself.

"Tax the Carbon!" And the stupid media falls for it. The politicians fall for it.  The manipulated masses fall for it.    Vast millions of people, the very same ones that flocked to the south, infested the marshes and beaches, turned up the A/C, and lit up the night, fell for it. Mark my word if we ever lose cheap power (and believe me, it is cheap even at $500/bbl. compared to the horse era less than a century ago), the stampede back to the north will be thundering...that is, until the first winter.

"Where's our pollution free, carbon free, waste product (nuclear too) free power?"
" Why can't you give me my rightful free power while your at it?"

So really think things through... and I don't mean final solutions to a population explosion based on too cheap energy.  Conversely, I don't mean bowing thoughtlessly to "the little blue marble," flower power concepts that have been recently re-tread from the '60's.  _{"Blue Marble, that's a laugh. We should have been on Mars by now.}  Think how our brains coupled with each other instead of against each other and coupled with technology can achieve a world where all have sufficient, clean energy.

Because if you don't, ..
Don't expect Dubai to hold back.   Don't expect other nations to self fetter their best talents.  Do expect them to aid and abet your self hobbling if you continue to fall for every mantra, income "redistribution" and quick taxation "fix" that comes along.  Convergence with USSR concepts in an increasingly competitive world (notice I didn't say 'fair') including Russia itself will destroy innovation when we need it most.

Never forget the failed concept of; " To each according to his need, from each according to his resorces, skill... ,"whatever.
Then list all the energy resources at the instant, personal command of Al Gore.
Then go read and re-read "Animal Farm."

SomeONE always controls, lately under the guise of "greenuism."

Lastly use either NASA's World View or Google Earth to see what's happening in a world not fettered by alarmists with agendae.   Palm Islands as previously mentioned would be a good place to start.

MS Beluga SkySails is the world's first commercial container cargo ship partially powered by a giant computer-controlled kite,[2] called the SkySails system. It comprises a kite similar to a paraglider of up to 600 square metres (6,500 sq ft) area.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Beluga_Skysails

Article has a picture.

How neat. Retro sailers remind me of some of those ol' Popular Science' articles.

Better be able to reef the sails of those babies pretty quickly.  ;D
Human nature being what it is someone will always try to beat a storm or hurricane.
Some storms come up and from out of "nowhere' very suddenly.  Satellite forewarning may not be enough to catch your local capricous storm. 

For some designs, vastly increased sail area and topmast loading call for deep counterweighting. Draught of some freight vessels is already more than a lot of harbors can accomodate.  Stresses on super hulls would be heading in a new direction... (p.i.)

Cost of transport for large vessels is probably an inverse exponent of the long dimension. (1/cubic?)
What I'm trying to say is that shipping economy of scale calls for really large ships these days, 250k dwt and up.  Similar economy of scale for air and rail transport of course.  It sure would a lot of fun to see a mega-sailer.  It would also have to have emergency power sufficient to operate in the stormy high seas, fairly close to harbors and when becalmed, even power to overcome an error in running sail.  Could be a lot of money in that...   - a very interesting design problem.

For the kite design I guess you just cut 'er loose in a sudden storm...     wonder where it'll land or who it'll cover?

The designs I like are the huge partial air foil/ propeller sections on masts.  Way cool..

Aeolus may have the last laugh here.

Labor costs aside, might operating two smaller (more manageable) sail cargo ships make more sense than one mega-ship?

The larger a diesel, the more efficient, but does that necessarily apply to a wind-powered vessel?

..And what about bringing back steam power and coal boilers?

Pennsy was the last railraod to make a 'modern' steam turbine locomotive.
Obviously we'll need a more efficient and less 'polluting' design in today's world.

Quasi Traditional steam updated - possilby Couldn't be done in todays eco-climate -  but sure worth a try what with new fluid technology.

Steam is wonderful ; the big bugaboo there is the tremendous demand for lots of very fresh, uncontaminated or highly treated water.

Eutectic salts (molten) might be a possibility.  Secondary steam to turbines, etc.
A small nuclear reactor driving steam turbines... or generating electricty for drive motors is what navies use now.

Hey engineers, what say?

Big research going on right now in getting Hydrogen stored at room temperature and at low pressures.  -mixed in with super molecules a la inside NaAl₂₃.   if I've gotten that right. 
c.f., "Science News, June 21, 2008"

Why is it that the Navy can have nuclear-powered vessels, but not the private sector?

How about a nationwide electric railway system, powered by a network of dedicated nuclear power plants.   I don't think nuclear steam trains would be practical, think of the weight of the mobile containment vessel.

Good idea.

As far as loco weight, no prob.
- one of the lightest locos made was the GE 44 tonner.  The great 4-8-8-4 mallets were far heavier.

Surely with titanium 'n stuff we can make a decent portable, lightweight reactor.

and while we're at it, magnilev.  Hey, pretend like cost is no object.  Think in terms of $3 trillion, say the current fy fed. budget riding a $10 tril. economy.

After all that's the kind of thinking that led to the great autoban and interstate system.  Maybe it could be perceived as up a blind alley but the ride was great while it lasted.  Too bad we all got so dependent on the personal auto, moved far from work.... or the work from us. 

Why aren't we hearing much of anything these days about the status of research into fusion technology?

And what about this (http://www.hoax-slayer.com/compressed-air-car.shtml)?

Don't compare Navy talent with the typical back yard JS artest.
There is a reason why the typical person can't have that type of fuel.

The biggest problems with both nuc fusion and fission is neutron embrittlement and irradiation of containment structures.  This tends to greatly increase shielding requiremnets.   there is MUCH more to this....help me out ,Ellen

But from what I have read on the subject, fusion leaves behind but a tiny fraction of the toxic waste that fission does.  I believe the main problem with fusion is maintaining a stable, controlled reaction.  Fusion works very well in H-bombs, but some means must be developed to put it under control, since a "big bang" is not practical for generating useful energy.  Controlled fusion would be about the closest thing we could come to unlimited "green" power - and the fuel can be extracted from sea water.  The economic benefits would easily cover the costs of maintaining the containment and shielding structures.

Vehicles could run economically 100% off electricity using rechargeable batteries, and virtually render the petrol industry obsolete.  When you fill up, simply exchange batteries.

I suspect that a multi-national "Manhattan Project" for practical fusion reactors could produce successful results within a decade or so, at a fraction of what the major industrialised nations spend to-day to maintain their weapons arsenals.

I agree that the energy companies do what large companies tend to do and that is to eliminate competition ... I wonder just how many inventions have been lost that could have made things  much better ... lets see, I believe nuclear fusion also creates high energy neutrons ... the impengement of those tends to actually change/distort the molecular structure of containments ... some become brittle, some become radioactive .. i know only a little of this from working as a nuc plant operator ... guess that why I like glow in the dark... 73  John

Nuclear would be the way to go IF the plants were standardized, like France(?). A plant operator or tech can walk into any nuclear plant and know how to operate. If nuclear is handled on the cheap, like we do here in the USA, then you have a perfect formula for a 3 mile island or Chernobyl.

Fred

yeah Fred ... that's the direction the industry is heading ... It seems the most efficient design is around 500MW PWR and has been fairly well designed as a module ... this should radically speed up the licensing process ... TVA is raising rates about 25% this fall and is rumored to have several new sites in mind for new construction ...73...John

Remember "atoms for peace" back in the Eisenhower era?  When nuke plants were to come on line, electricity would to be "too cheap to meter".

well we have yet another rate increase coming for power.
Anybody want to jump in and defend the power company.

Well, Frank... since anyone saying anything at all that makes any amount of sense about anything will be twisted by you into "defending the power companies", I might as well be your target today. Here goes:

You can't build a nuke plant in this country because the Jane Fondas of the world made sure that everyone would crap their pants at the first whisper of the word "nuclear".

The same phony enviro-whacko hysteria has now extended to hydroelectric dams (they might disturb fish spawning), windmills (a migratory bird might fly into one), and even solar farms (they haven't figured out what to make us all fear about this yet, but they're working hard at it).

You know, all those things that were supposed to be alternatives to nuke energy, those same whackos found a reason to stop them, too. They claim it's for "the environment", but they don't give a damn about the environment, they only care about the view out their window.

So what does that leave us with? You guessed it: coal and oil (the two least environmentally-friendly forms of power generation, the only ones these "environmentalists" don't complain about).

What's happening to the price of oil right now? That's right, it's going up. Price of coal? Also going up very soon, because we need to burn oil in order to ship coal.

So you can blame the power companies if you want (and you've clearly already made your mind up on that), but they've got to pay for the oil and coal they burn to light your air conditioner. Those prices go up, the price per kilowatt-hour goes up.

If the price of flour goes up, the price of the bread you buy from the baker will do the same. That by itself doesn't make the baker evil or greedy.

Pretty simple, really. Plain, simple economics, just like they taught you in school.

So rather than assuming the power company is out to get you, why not focus your anger where it belongs: to the Jane Fondas and Julia Butterfly Hills that got us into this mess in the first place?

I guess it's easier to just shoot the messenger than it is to stop and look at the bigger picture.

--Thom
p.s. No point getting pissed at me, either... you did dare us to respond.

Bill/KD0HG said


Two main reasons Bill. Scale and security. The navy is able to use highly refined (almost weapons grade) fuel which produces far more energy than what is available for industry use. A fuel cycle for a navy carrier is expected to be 20 years as apposed to only 3 years in a civilian reactor. The size and weight of the carrier or sub reactor and related components is much smaller. If a civilian reactor of the same horsepower was produced the ship would be much, much heavier.

The other reason is security. A navy ship or sub is expected to be able to protect itself form attack and a civilian ship would be a floating target.

We tried it back in the 1950's. MS Savannah was the first and only nuclear powered cargo ship. It is on display at Patriots Point in Charleston harbor South Carolina. The size and weight of the reactor and shielding made it slow and the payload was small. Many countries wouldn't let it stop. The crew and US port workers had the biggest influence on it's short life. Fear of working on or near the ship lead to crew shortages and longshoreman strikes.

If your ever in Charleston make it a point to visit the Patriots Point display. The Yorktown is awesome.

Mike

AS long as Congress can continue to demonize the private sector industries that actually bring us the comodities we use AND, all the while, rake in the tax dollars for doing nothing ... nothing will change.
The only answer is voter imposed term limits.

Think about ..... we can change the face of Congress in just 6 years.

BUT..... most people ain't gotta clue. ???

A majority of people that consider themselves "environmentalists" are in favor of nuclear electric power production.    The envirowackos are limited to Hollywood.

Hey Bud,
Maybe congress will wake up when there is no more tax base to extort cash from and we finally hit the credit card limit??
Tom,
I like Nuke power there is one 5 miles up the road. Rather that than CO and CO2 belching out a stack. Our power co is owned by guess who

Mike/BAC, thanks for the insight.

With respect to some of the other comments about nukes, what strikes me is that a major issue is ignorance on the part of the public. Ignorance leads to unwarranted fear. It's human nature.

The nuclear industry hasn't done a very good job of promoting itself and educating the general public. In fact, a terrible job. Everything's 'top secret'. The facilities are guarded by mooks armed with M-16s. Let the public tour a nuclear power plant. Have an open house once a year. Answer questions. Inform and educate. If they can't do that and demonstrate that nukes are safe facilities, then I fear that the cause is hopeless.

Compare that to the promotional campaigns Exxon and others have done with respect to their businesses.

Bill,
If you have ever been in a nuke facility you know why they can't do an open house. I spent a day in one doing 6 hours of safety training to do a 1/2 hour job. I did get a chance to wrap my arms around one of the generator output leads.

I have been in a nuke plant several times when I worked for an electric utility company

I don't see any reason why a tightly escorted group couldn't tour parts of the place. Now, if a nuke is too hazardous to visit, even under highly controlled circumstances, then that plays right into the hands of the ignorant.

I've been in coal plants many times as well. As far as I'm concerned, they're even more dangerous to personnel working inside than a nuke is. That steam is almost red hot at 2,500-4,000 PSI, maybe 1,000 F. A leak in a high pressure pipe wouldn't even be seen as it would be too hot to condense, but it sure could amputate your arm or leg. A major leak would be a disaster. One could blow the walls of the building out. In a confined area, you'd cook from the inside with your first breath.

At least build a reception area into the front offices of a nuke plant, for heaven's sake. Set it up with A/V exhibits, like museums have. If that's a bad idea, then start the PR machine and educate the public.

I will say one thing...Reading the story of the Chernobyl disaster is truly frightening.

They used to have a center in town where you could visit. It was a good PR thing but it closed down.
Most of the public couldn't tell the difference between a coal plant and a nuke.

Bill/KD0HG Wrote,


Up until the ninety's most nuclear generating stations had outstanding visitor centers that explained how power was produced. It was common to see tour groups, awestruck and bugeyed, walking in straight lines with shiny new hardhats. Every plant had some kind of nature conservancy outreach angle in play. They really tried.

Deregulation put the brakes on much of this as plants changed hands. Share holders demanded dividends and prices bottomed out. Many of the visitor centers and community outreach program budgets dried up.

Than came 9/1/01. At that time security was so tight, allowing a visitor was unthinkable. It's better now but the blast barriers, K rail vehicle barriers and added lookout towers are a constant reminder of the times. Many people don't want to visit anymore.

Zero Grid Current has a point.   Excuse me for editing his long post (293).   It's pretty hard to do anything new. Here's a number for you:  80,000,000 acres of federal lands leased for oil and gas exploration.  Zero (0) acres leased for solar.   So the feds put a two year moratorium on leases for solar.

Seems pretty whacko to me.  However, I disagree that it is the "same whackos."   It think there are many species of whacko.  Here's a Reuters article on the subject.  Headline followed by link:

U.S. solar energy industry blasts government move

http://tinyurl.com/5gzfyb

not if you are controlled by oil pigs

All good and valid points.

Also makes me truly wonder about the real ultimate goal(s) of the hard core enviros. I'm not talking about the average guy or gal that loves nature - that applies to just about all of us, I'm talking about the movement leaders.

If we follow their prescriptions to their ultimate consequences, nothing short of the economic (and ultimately social) collapse of the civilized world will result. We are beginning to see the beginnings of this already with extreme financial hardship on the less wealthy among us.

The hard core enviros will never have enough, they will keep pushing a radical agenda to the bitter end. It seems to me, a 61 year old guy who grew up in Cleveland, that the world is a far cleaner place then it was when I was a kid. Lake Erie is much cleaner. the air in Cleveland, Cinci, Pittsburgh all orders of magnitude cleaner. What do these people want?

I shake my head. Why shut down the cleanest, most advanced, most productive, most benevolent society in the history of the world for a few less molecules of CO2 (a naturally occurring atmospheric gas).

 

  "  Also makes me truly wonder about the real ultimate goal(s) of the hard core enviros. "

I think the real Wacos want the human race to be reduced to almost nothing. (cant kill it all off as that would be extinguishing a species.... ..)

klc

You also don't hear much about acid rain.     That has been getting reduced with the scrubbers or whatever they use.    I don't see the smog and smell the local paper plant like years ago.    As Terry said, Lake Erie has been revived from being the dead sea as it was in years past.    The government has done a good job.    Now get us some good reactors and let OPEC pound sand.

There are many different species of ducks, too... but they all look, walk, and quack like ducks.

The problem is people's perceptions of various means of generating electricity. Most people simply don't understand what goes into generating the energy that arrives at their wall sockets. They've got other things to worry about, or they have simply shut down and walk through life not wanting to know anything about anything because ignorance is bliss.

Then you get the ones who hear one snippet of information (whether fact, partial truth, or outright lie) and suddenly believe that this (whatever) simply must be stopped at all costs, without ever considering what the alternatives (or lack of alternatives) might be, or even doing any research of their own ("they" said it's bad, therefore it's bad).

These people would picket The Second Coming if someone told them it might raise the price of gasoline on the 4th of July.

Example of Perception in Energy Generation:

When the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant came up for re-licensing back in the late 80s (which requires a vote of the populace for approval), the committee working on the campaign for re-licensing couldn't understand why the numbers were completely in the toilet, so they asked an outside group to poll the populace and see what the perception of the plant was.

When asked if they knew what Maine Yankee was, people said "yes". When asked if they knew what Maine Yankee produced, an alarming majority of people answered "nuclear waste". It turns out that most people didn't even know that the purpose of a nuclear power plant is to generate electricity. They honestly thought the place was a factory of some kind.

A quick re-adjustment of the advertising campaign fixed that little issue, and the re-licensing initiative passed quite comfortably.

Most of people's fears of various different forms of energy production stem from the same kind of thing, they've got a skewed or completely misinformed opinion on what is involved, what the impact is, and what happens if they chicken out.

The wiseguys in Washington do exactly what their constituents expect them to do, even if it's based on irrational fears, because they are no better informed than the people who put them in office.

Result: stalemate. Nobody can get anything started on the energy front because it's not "the answer". Everyone thinks they have the one-and-only solution, and that everything else is unacceptible. 8 men in a boat rowing in 8 different directions.

The only ones making any noise on the issue are the whackos, and they've stymied just about every advance this country has tried to make in energy generation. The wind, solar, nuke, and hydro companies need to 86 their current P.R. people and start over with a new image that's a bit closer to reality.

Until the collective perception changes: oil, gas, coal, wood, you name it, will continue to get more and more and more expensive, and there's nothing any of us can do to change it by just pissing and moaning.

Except count the number of words in one of my posts, if that's what you're into.

In Michigan we have two main utility companies. Detroit Edison (DTE) and Consumers Energy. Other small utility's are moving in including a large wind generating investment up north of here.

A hot button issue right now is something DTE and Consumers Energy have cooked up. They are lobbying our state representatives heavily to pass a bill to prohibit Michigan residents and business's from purchasing electricity or gas from any other company but them. They say if we are able to buy from other companies they will not be able to afford to build new power plants or explore for new gas.

DTE hasn't built a new power plant since the late 60's and consumers energy doesn't explore. As a matter of fact a LARGE portion of southeast Michigan's power comes from plants just across the Detroit and St Clair rivers in Canada. That Canadian power is sold to the Big Utilities and on to us. It is all about becoming a legal monopoly and forcing out the competition. Small utilities will have to wholesale power to the big's. Oh and by the way, power is going up 20% and we now have the pleasure of paying for power plant maintenance on top of paying for energy.

The large utilities pay allot of tax and raise millions in regulatory fees for the states not to mention election campaign contributions. They have a large cushy seat at the table when these things are discussed.

On the news day before yesterday I heard one of my legislators saying this new regulation was a "great idea".

Duck?

From the Oakland Tribune

Fisherman targets river dams for loss of salmon

http://tinyurl.com/55koko

Are these salty guys enviro-whackos too?

This year the Pacific salmon season was shut down completely.

I think your original point is completely valid.  It's too hard to do new things.

Nope.

The saltwater fishermen have actually experienced the decline in (pacific) saltwater salmon first-hand. They didn't get their information from one of their college professors or a TV ad, they actually live in the middle of the issue.

That's not at all what I'm talking about.


That wasn't my original point at all. Almost the opposite, actually.

My original point was that it's hard to circumnavigate the globe when you've got 8 people rowing in 8 different directions, and the captain insists the world is flat.

The things that we should be doing are obvious, the problem is that everyone involved seems to think that there is one solution and one solution only (their own personal pet solution), and that all the things we could be doing to combat the issue (more nukes/wind/solar/hydro/geo/drilling) are somehow mutually-exclusive. They aren't. Too many people's pet answers assume that putting all our eggs in one basket is going to work better now than it has up to this point.

The very definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

If they want to knock down the hydro dams on the west coast, fine, but put something else in their place to make up the difference. Windmills. Solar. Oil and coal for all I care, but I'm getting a little tired of the West Coast model of treating the infrastructure like some kind of nuisance that only serves to devalue residential property and then whining for help from the rest of the country when it breaks down. We've had that discussion before, I know you know where I'm coming from on that one.

Power generation can be done responsibly in a way that minimizes detrimental effect on the environment, the economy, and reduces our dependence on foreign fuels, all at the same time; but until people with different approaches start coming together on this, we're stuck in a stalemate.

Doing new things is easy. Realizing that there's more than one new thing we can be doing is what appears to be the hard part.

look what our fine oil pig controlled leaders did with solar leases on public land

I guess I'll weigh in here on the nuclear issue since they used to make the fuel rods right next to my shop at Babacock & Wilcox. The biggest fear by far is what to do with the leftover radioactive waste. Since it is no good as a fission device but still contains a high amount of radioactivity whose half life is in the thousands of years. When there was an outage, the spent rods went into a tank with the rest of the radioactive waste until it was packaged and shipped to some remote place in New Mexico. Talk about mega-bucks!!!! As to oil Frank, we have the capability to get oil here at home but our lovely politically controlled congress, (read as dem Dems!!!) forbid to do so. Your arguement with el Presidente' doesn't hold any weight and has become stale.
Time to go back in my hole.

They've been screwing around with disposal plans for the last 25 years, at least. There is a legal agreement with nuke plant owners- The Feds are legally obliged to take and safely dispose of the spent fuel. But they still have no place to put it.


I don't want to delve into politics here!

Let's equitably spread the blame- Neither major political party has been willing or able to resolve the issues. Republicans gained control of Congress by a large margin in 1995, and generally kept control until 2006. During that decade, no Congressional agreement was reached on the disposal of spent nuclear fuel, for example. No action was taken on expanded drilling in Alaska. And nothing was settled before 1995, either. And it still hasn't. And likely won't be with the next political cycle, whoever is pulling the strings, either.

The problem isn't "R" or "D", it's ignorance and lack of leadership. On the part of elected officials and the general public. As has been pointed out here, there*are* liberals, environmentalists and Democrats that support expanded drilling with safeguards and nuclear power as there are Florida and California Republicans opposed to offshore drilling near 'their' state. Net result?

Let's get informed and judge people by their actions, not by labels. We *could* elect an informed Congress and president willing to tackle these issues to a person, but we likely won't. Not a single one of the presidential candidates this past primary season had a *clue* about energy policy. *Both* political parties offered candidates whose quick fix was the removal of taxes on motor fuel...Brilliant. (A quick fix for votes, that is!) How's that going to help us afford heating fuel this winter? Neither political party or candidate is willing or able to tell the truth to the American people or implement a working plan of ANY kind.

They've had their chances. I'm disgusted with all of them.

I got lost in the nested quotes, but you said:


Well, Thom.

I think we agree on almost everything.  We should do a lot of different things.  I wish I'd written that last paragraph.

I don't know about that "West Coast model" part, though. The largest wind farm in the US is in my neighborhood and has been for a long time (Altamont). After the great fun with Enron, CA put in peaking power plants like crazy. One of those is in my neighborhood.  CA (and Oregon and Washington) are in love with hydro power and are really distressed over the salmon situation (near extinction with dams part of the problem) and don't know what the heck to do about it. CA has a "Million Solar Roofs" program for distributed solar which has caused more PV to be installed in California in the last year than in the previous 10 combined or something like that.  It has changed the business models of the utilities so they don't lose out. CA has the biggest concentrated solar thermal in the US in Southern California, has had it for a long time, is doing more and wants to do a lot more.  CA has had a variety of efficiency measures in place which has kept the electric usage per person flat since the seventies while it's  doubled in the rest of the country.  It now has the lowest electric usage per person in the US.  CA has oil wells all over SoCal  and some up north, pumping since 1901.   Many have been capped -- pumped out. But CA oil companies are going back in to suck more oil out of these fields since it's worth so much now and new technology is better. I think  CA has been pretty down on nuclear for a long time like the rest of the country.  I bet that's changing too.   

And when did the West Coast ask for the rest of the country to bail it out?  Not that we won't.   When the big one comes, we'll be asking for all the help we can get wherever we can get it.

Another issue is us, you, me and the guy behind the tree.

Suppose there was a presidential candidate that had his thumb on our energy issues and had an absolutely brilliant 10-year plan to insure the country a supply of affordable, reliable energy.

But the same candidate also wanted to sell off our ham radio spectrum to the highest bidder or donate it to some worthy public cause, say, a cure for cancer.

Would we vote for him? Or would our own special interests override the obvious common good?

I would. What good is ham radio spectrum if you can't afford the power to get on the air?

Check this story out from today's CBS Channel 4 TV in Denver...
More oil in the rock around here than in all the Middle East- Maybe a trillion barrels.

http://cbs4denver.com/seenon/oil.shale.colorado.2.760974.html

Bill, you need to figure out how to get rich off this.  Do you have a big hat?  You need to start with a big hat.

The last oil crises in the 70's led the way to alternatives for oil in a big way. Some lasting great technology's and other dead ends. Todays crises points the way to many of the same boondoggles explored back than.

In 1989 I worked in Parachute Colorado at the oil shale mines. It was a project fully funded by the fed to explore the possibility of extracting oil from the deposits in Colorado.

The government financed the oil companies to the tune of hundreds of millions of 1980's dollars. They, we, paid for property (the highest grade ore producing areas known at the time), developed the mines, built the on site refineries and guaranteed a at cost buy back to the oil companies for the products which turned out to be jet fuel and diesel.

The crux is the government (we) paid $225 per barrel for the end product and that was 1988 pricing.

Oil shale contains almost 90% more H2S than oil deposits. The corrosive nature of H2S made it almost imposable to keep the refinery in operation AND! At that time it took almost as much energy to mine and refine the end products as the final product offered in new energy.

Like corn ethanol it's a really bad idea. If it costs more energy to produce than it offers, it's not going to make it.

Mike

Tnx for the hands-on insight, Mike. I didn't know about the sulfur issue.

I had heard that they'd probably need to build a nuke power plant to provide enough energy to viably extract the oil. I figured that would be a 'simple' trade of one form of energy for another, more useful one used for transportation and aviation.

As far as you know, do the Alberta tar sands have a similar sulfur issue?

So why is the oil contracts in Iraq going on the open market when we just spent a fortune liberating their sorry lazy butts. I think we should be getting paid for all this protection in the middle east. WTF

Mike,
There was a thing on the news last night about that area and they have a new process to crack the crude under ground and bring up only liquid fuel.
Not sure of the cost to boil it underground but bet it isn't cheap.

You put that in the past tense.  It should be in the present and the future.  It's not over yet by a long shot.  More like Orwell's 1984 concept of permanent warfare.

Weren't we assured that Iraqi oil revenues would pay 100% of the reconstruction costs once Saddam's sorry ass was removed from the picture?

Army's official history of the Iraq war admits mistake after mistake early in the conflict (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/30/iraq.mistakes/index.html?eref=rss_topstories).

Yea, and i like how I'm reading that gas stations want to go back to cash base exchange....there's a charge for transactions using Electronic exchange...awesum..first they want us to use direct deposit, then they want to charge us to use direct deposit..then  ;D...what a country....LOL...


There's word on the news Transportation workers in Britain are on the verge of some sort of stoppage...It's amazing how so much is stressed on transportation of goods and services and how so much is stressed in putting it out of business...

There's a serious Conflict in Logic here somewhere... :P

Don,
You would thing we would get a little free gas out of the deal...oh I forgot we are but the money goes to the oil pigs

and...
"look what our fine oil pig controlled leaders did with solar leases on public land"
- ad nauseum for your last three posts with absolutely no variation on a 'stuck record' theme.

Pity.

Frank, it appears the discussion is swirling around you.  Your soto voco one liners are very apparently being ignored. 

This board has probably the best, all inclusive discussion of energy needs, barriers and potential solutions of just about all sites I've seen.   It ought too; we as a group have educations and experience ranging from PHD's to the very justly earned school of hard knocks.  Many of us have worked in various energy sectors; one of my specialties was once electronic/nuclear underground logging. In order to be taken seriously you need to peruse some of our points a little more reflectively.  I and many here will debate sound policy, but not pig headedness. Right or wrong we soldier on.   The guys are just being polite. I for one have learned a lot from you and have respected your views on many radio and other topics but I think you need to open up a bit on this on this one.

I posit that you are the big oil pig.  I suggest that you quit driving your car, quit heating and A/c'ing your home, quit buying all plastic products, drinking from any oil derived container including waxed cartons and milk containers.  Oh and quit showering with hot water ... on and on.  In this world, everything has been based on hydrocarbons including your own body for a very long, long time.

Perhaps you've been burned by a corporation. If so, hey, we might be with you.  If not and given that you understand business then what?

Turn off you rigs, your power, your heat and water, quit all transportation other than your own two feet including goods to your house and market and let us know about your quality of life in a couple of months... no wait, make that hours.

Perhaps your all for oil if it's publicy owned and regulated?  Then what would you tax? Yourself? And if you are for state owned oil, I can't say it enough.... go read and reread "Animal Farm."
Well I digressed.  My real intent is to get you back into active discussion.

signed,
a concerned friend.

From Bill/KD0HG


I don't have any first hand information on this. I can only parrot some news I've herd lately.

The oil sands project appears to be a success and the Canadians used some creative thinking to make it happen.

The Canadian oil companies worked for a long time to figure out how to mine the sand and extract the oil. It just didn't work. Like the shale, the sand, per ton, gave little return and mining it cost a fortune and made a mess.

Some engineers figured out (Like Frank/GFZ said) If they could heat it and lift it, they might be able to pump the oil. But that would take a huge amount of energy.

The brilliant part was placing other industry nearby that wasted heat in production of other products. I think they started with an aluminum recycling/smelting plant. By injecting steam and hot water produced form waist heat the oil freed up and the water lifted the crude into pools. The process is in full commercial swing now and I hear it is a success. I'm no engineer but I think it would be a much tougher nut to crack extracting the shale oils but engineers do some brilliant things.

As for sulfur and H2S content in the oil sands I have no clue however it is known that injecting water containing bacteria underground to lift oil can sour the oil (add to the amount of H2S). Ask the Norwegians. The first deep sea oil project off Norway's coast had a problem with sea floor subsidence. As they pumped they're light sweet crude they realized the 8 platform complex was sinking. The chalk sub straight that held the oil was compressing fast. Injecting sea water to replace, and help lift, the oil stabilized the subsidence. Unfortunately the bacteria in the sea water soured the oil and made refining more costly. Adding a process to irradiate the injected water slowed the H2S problem. OH, the platform complex sank 18 feet before the fix took hold and a massive 18 foot jack up project had to be done to save it. Eight platforms lifted at once and 18 foot sea leg extensions added. The cost was very high but the fix was a success.

High contents of sulfur and H2S in oil isn't necessary a bad thing it just makes handling and refining more costly and hazardous. Sulfur and water makes acid, not good for machinery or people. H2S (hydrogen sulphide) is common to oil production and is rendered harmless when the sulfur is extracted. However in gas form one breath will shut down your body's ability to absorb oxygen. Negative outcome.

An interesting note from history. Early settlers in the oil shale regions found the flat shale made great building foundations. Kind of stinky but what the heck. Foundations and fireplaces  ;D Not long later they figured out stone foundations and chimneys can BURN? Negative Outcome.

Thanks again, Mike.

There *is* plenty of petroleum but it's harder to get and going to be expensive.

Two or three years back, Suncor, a Canadian company, bought the big refinery in Denver from Conoco. They later bought the other refinery from Valero. The feedstock is petro from the Canadian deposits, it's pretty much a straight shot from Alberta to Denver, minimizing transportation costs. They're processing about 100,000 barrels a day of Canadian oil sand crude in town now, about half the area gasoline supply. As you say, engineers can do some rather amazing stuff and 21st Century oil prices are quite a motivator.

Gee sorry Rick, Maybe I should go drill a hole in the sugar maple in the back yard and keep to myself.

The rolling blackouts you were having a couple of years ago.


Well gee, Frank... doesn't that kinda blow a hole in your tired "oil pig" mantra? Time to nudge the stylus.

Yeah Frank,
I came on a little strong.
We're lucky to have back yards with sugar maples.

But I bet you have to use a foundry forged hammer and galvanized, rolled steel spout to tap 'em.  Lots of taken for granted energy  ;D there.

I'll give you the wood handle if it isn't polycarbonate.

I really admire you and a lot of your thoughts on other matters (hope the obsequious (sp?) genuflection isn't too obvious or patronizing); I just know you can make points better than by mantra.

lol, don't do that Frank. Maybe in NJ that was OK, but around here, if Jody catches wind, there will be a special usage tax added to drill bits. Atty Richie B will probably sue you for using your back yard for something other than a back yard.

Help like that we can do without:

"The California electricity crisis (also known as the Western Energy Crisis) of 2000 and 2001 resulted from the gaming of a partially deregulated California energy system by energy companies such as Enron and Reliant Energy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

Yea, just like we got all those Mercedes Benz at below market rate from Germany for liberating there sorry lazy butts...... Oh wait. That never happened. Never mind.

He he. As if Wikipedia is an authorative source in this. Too funnny.

Read the article.  It's pretty thorough.

Thorough and correct are two different things.

It's Wikipedia.   If you have better information, you're invited to add it.  What's your better information?

Is there anything you do these days that is not against the law somewhere?

My cousin who used to live there recently told me that in one of the suburbs of DC they have a strict zoning ordinance against doing any kind of work out of your home, and that includes telecommuting via your computer, and even prohibits teachers from bringing papers home to grade.

Like I've said before, we only *thought* the Nazis lost the war.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/18/wikipedia_quality_problem/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article730025.ece
http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

Just a few. And I have personal experience in attempting to correct Wikapedia errors on HD Radio. Edits I made were removed, even though the source I cited was easily checked and blatantly clear.

Wilipeidia has it's faults.  But that article I quoted looked pretty good.  Take a look.  See if you don't think so too.  Do you have a better article about the Western Energy crisis of 2000, 2001?

That's a little unnerving, the part about teaching, teachers and homework, that's Sad really....I have 2 customers on my route that operate home based business and i can understand some restrictions, One has a Book peddling business and it is a real operation getting her freight into the little garage she has, when the orders are 4 and 5 pallets at a time and getting things wheeled from the truck up her alley, truck doesn't fit and i have to park on the street down two blocks from her house so I can understand some restrictions..really i can...when she should be using commercial storage units.. ah well gotta watch the overhead...

That one's not exactly free of bias.  In fact, I would take something I read there about as seriously I would something from The Onion.

Can you point out any errors?

For what it's worth, being a ham and experimenter and having nothing to lose except time, I built an H2O electrolyzer for the ole Ranger figuring what the heck. The gas mileage on the old beast increased by 3 mpg by putting HHO directly into the intake.  I was skeptical but figured I had nothing to lose. It's been a consistent 3 mpg increase over and above what it would get normally on a truck with 230K miles in mileage for 6 weeks now.

Please sir share the electrolyzer DC voltage and DC current (most important!), as well as any details concerning the chemistry and construction you would care to.

Water injection into a diesel's air intake (dunno about gas engines) actually works to a degree in improving efficiency. Methanol-water injection works somewhat better...Cheapest way to do it is use windshield washer fluid.

Also measurably reduces NO2 emissions by cooling the combustion process.

I had forgotten all about it.

Tnx, Bob.

"Please sir share the electrolyzer DC voltage and DC current (most important!), as well as any details concerning the chemistry and construction you would care to."



See this link: http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm

mike

Articles I have read there are consistently loaded with obvious political/religious agenda. The whole thing is basically a propaganda piece, as implied by its name. I have no interest in reading every piece of factual information I seek, from political or religious viewpoint.

For example, the entry on "amateur radio" shows a total word count of 545, excluding the external links.  But the section dedicated to "Amateur Radio and Christianity" shows a word count of 171, or 31.3%. Now, I may be interested in the subject of Christianity, but not necessarily when learning about amateur radio. What about amateur radio and Judaism?  What about amateur radio and computers?  Amateur radio and foreign languages?  Amateur radio and crossword puzzles, amateur radio and growing tomatoes, etc?  Looks and smells like a politico-religious agenda to me.

Some Wiki articles may indeed show the bias of the author, but show me where the bias is consistent.

All encyclopaedias and other sources of knowledge are prone to error and bias on the part of the author of the text.  No one person could authoritatively write an entire encyclopaedia, and if one were able to achieve such an accomplishment, the entire work would reflect the bias, knowledge and ignorance of the author. It is always advisable to use more than one source for information. They taught me that back in high school freshman English.

The HHO cell draws about 7 amps cold and as high as 9amps when warm at 14.1vdc.  Output is about 700ml per minute when warm. Chemistry: distilled water and pure NaOH.  Just enough NaOH to give the current draw outlined above which is a 1/2 teaspoon to 1/2 gallon of distilled water.  Cell construction is as follows:  A microwaveable container with a locking lid and neoprene gasket houses the plate arrangement.  There are 13 4"x4" 316 stainless steel plates.  3 of the plates are at +12v, 2 are at vehicle ground.  The others in between are floating. The plates are held together via nylon bolts. All plates are spaced about 3/16" apart. Joints of the cell are sealed with RTV. Gas output is put into a bubbler which serves as a spark arrestor.  It's simply a piece of 12 inch long 1.5 inch PVC plumbing with permanent and removable end caps.  The output from the bubbler is attached right at the front of the throttle body.  Current is monitored using a 15 amp panel meter in the cab. The arrangement is fused by a 15amp fuse and turned on by a toggle switch in the cab. It's also enabled via a relay that is controlled by the ignition switch.

Absolutely no reason why addl' fuel in the way of H₂ combustion shouldn't give you increased mpg if you could find a way to keep from consuming additional horsepower running the generator used to create the H₂ in the first place.

Now if you hooked generators to the brakes, i.e. electrical brakes generating power instead of heat, did a lot of city driving, then I could see an increase in mpg compared to the usual mechanical brakes.

Hmmm. 

But perhaps your just burning water , H₂O, or as you say HHO at the already high cylinder temperatures of the usual engine.  This is exactly the system used for last resort in WWII fighter aircraft. Yes water will burn, given enough pre-temp. .... and it's the last thing the pilots used in a dog fight;.. .only in escape...  most times their engines were toast after that trick.  A one shot deal.  So you might check ring, piston wear, cooling, etc. as the life of your engine progresses.  I would say that your combustion temperatures are exceeding manufacturers specs. somewhat.

Exactly what is the gas produced by your generator and is the generator /alternator supply energized by the same motor in which your feeding the gas ?

Maybe I'm missing something here....
won't be the first time,
but there is no perpetual motion machine  ;D

.. and then there's nitro-methane which will give you increased hp output at high rpms with a whole lot of add'l heat and wear.   This is an oxidizer enhancement too.   I've used it sparingly.

I'm not sure why I'm getting a 2 to 3 mpg increase. I'm not a thermodynamics or chemistry expert. But from what theories I have read about this concept is that it just an enhancement to making fuel burn more efficiently. Again, who knows.  Maybe I'd get the same result if I simply replaced the O2 sensors since they've never been replaced.  Who knows. I do know that if there is a performance change toward detriment, it is not perceptible. Engine temp is actually running slightly below normal. I have no pre-detonation, actually it is less when I didn't install this contraption. Throttle response and overall drive-ability remain unchanged.  With a vehicle that is due to be replaced at some point, the ole Ranger has 230k miles on it,  I have little concern if it do destroy it.  If it keeps on going, either way I have nothing to lose the way I figure it.  It's a guinea pig.

Seems to me that adding some ordinary hydrogen, from whatever source, would add some extra thermal expansion on ignition.  It's just flammable fuel.  It -might- somehow cause the pressure dynamics to work better with the hardware... I donno.  If it didn't cost much, and mileage improved, that's what matters.

Wasn't there a system of adding a little bit of water spray to the fuel-air mixture?  The idea was that the water vaporizing took some heat, and that slowed the burn slightly, and this was a good thing.

I guess that would reduce temperature, but maybe not reduce the pressure very much, because the water vaporizes.  It might still deliver more power because of the delayed burn, maybe less ping, etc, I donno.  People have made that claim over the years.  I never tried it.

9A @ 14.1V is 126.9 watts. If you are really getting even 2MPG more with that, it would be a benefit. You did not say how much MPG the ranger gets normally or with the device. Say the ranger gets 18MPG on the highway at 60MPH.

So, if you now get 20MPG instead of 18, that is a 10% savings, making your gas for 20 miles cost $3.60 rather than $4.00. I'll take that. Driving records are useful but the quality of gas changes over the seasons and also the weather affects things. I don't have a dyno where a specific load could be put on the vehicle, so that is out. The point is that a scientific test is very hard to do.

The guy over at http://hytechapps.com/ has a video with his ford wagon and some results that show he is using about 1200 watts DC (100A) and getting a substantially big increase. This is why I was asking about the power input and the electrolyzer.

His weldng machine is of interest also, I note the flame burns cool, yet melts anything it contacts. His electrolyte is a secret and he does not say if the plates have to be periodically replaced, etc. The ideal thing would be an electrolyzer that uses a catalytic function so that the electrolyte and materials are not rapidly consumed.

When you are going down the road and throw the switch, can you tell a difference or is it more subtle? It's one of those seeing is believing things. I'd hate to spend the time and $ and be disappointed. Yet alot of people are doing this.

Well I think alot of us have been to the Drags and have built a few things to run and compete I know George has and Bob, I've built a few Sportster's and one Kaw 900 along the way and understand Fuel and Fuel Mixes and Cooling and handling...Intake Ducting and Air viscosity and Flow arrangements...Anything to get an Edge...and it's a travesty the way Fuel is handled and mixed, Dumped and redumped, water content is at an all time high..unstable octane levels...Blaaa....There's Junk Fuel in this country..."Sad Chemistry"... For the prices we're paying folks SHUD be screaming for a Better Quality product.... but for the masses "you" get what they hand out...too bad...Deregulation..Baaaaa... ;D

We've enjoyed a pretty good time as far as transportation, But Biting the hand that feeds the machine isn't the answer...Either...I'm all for Profit Engineering, I hope the select few Enjoy the ride it's only gona last so long...

Folks in this country properly motivated are capable of anything...Interesting times are ahead....Too bad i'm to old to compete..LOL....If we woulda had the Ignition systems available Today back when...man..think of the performance levels that would've been possible......awesum... 8)  Look what these younger cats are doing at the track Today...With these 4 cylinder Pony motors...Super Kewel.... :D

Here  in the Rockies, we pay the same price for 85 octane as you Easties pay for your 87 octane.

I throw the switch at start up most of the time now.  Earlier on when I was testing the apparatus it was used intermittently for fear of trouble.  But as time went on I gradually increased its on time to being on at startup and off when done driving.  During those times I noticed little to no change in performance. And even if I did notice what I thought was a change it would not have concerned me unless the mileage went down.  When I first started using it, mileage actually decreased but after using the setup consistently going through a full tank, the results were positive.  They were about 10% or slightly more. Overall I was pleased to see the increase.  I'm not sure why it went negative initially then positive afterwards.  So it's on now 100% of the time.  The vehicle responds very well as it always did. Engine temp remains normal and no pre-detonation is evident.

My ranger without the enhancement got 21mpg on average.  After putting in the hydrogen fuel enhancement it went up to 23mpg.  I have a 4.0L V6.  I'm estimating my next reading at 24mpg based on the fuel gauge and miles traveled.  I will know for sure when I do the fillup and math.  I've achieved 450miles on this tank.  I've never seen this before in the 6 years I've been driving this little truck.  I'll post numbers soon after the next fill up.

For what it's worth, I spent about $40.00 to $50.00 in materials to build this and several hours in time building.  After a few runs it should pay for itself hopefully. 

That's pretty cool. Well I'm impressed. I have noticed over the last month the fuel economy has decreased from 16.5 overall to 14.4.

I stopped by the chevy dealer and aksed the mechanics because I know them and they have never lied to me. They told me I was only the 13th person today who inquired about fuel economy. They said its the reformulated fuel for the summer, and the stuff is full of ethanol, the full 10%, and that they have pulled some nasty looking fuel out of a few vehicles lately and alot of people have been coming in with fuel mileage complaints, but there's nothing wrong with most of the vehicles.

Apparently when water gets into a tank of fuel that has a high ethanol content, it does not stay well mixed in the fuel and you end up with water in the bottom of the tank causing all kinds of driveability issues, whereas water stays better mixed with gas that has little or no ethanol and tends to just go on through and 'burn' with the gas.

It's time to change things so we buy fuel by the BTU, not by the adulterated gallon.
I want to get the energy I am paying for to be standardized, not allow them to make up the weight/volume the other crap I don't want.
Fuel should be required to meet certain standards for BTU and the metering should reflect the energy being bought, not the non-combustible Spody-Ody added to the fuel today.
http://www.last.fm/music/Pere+Ubu/_/Drinking+Wine+Spodyody
http://www.bumwine.com/

Hi Patrick,
Actually, I think it's the other way around. Ethanol by itself is water soluble.  With ethanol in the gasoline, gasoline then has a susceptibility to absorb water. So water will pass through the engine but it also makes the gas go bad much faster.  It's the same effect that "dry-gas" has as a fuel line dryer.  Water and real gas repel each other by nature and with real gas one can see water actually sit on the bottom of a container.  Gasoline without ethanol will make water sink to the bottom since gasoline is refined oil essentially and is lighter in density. 

Yes, you are correct in the fuel mileage decrease with the change in formulation.  I see that in all my vehicles too when the state of CT mandates the formulation change. I also see problems with my small engines more often because of the ethanol like hardened and leaky fuel lines.  Ethanol kills rubber.

This website might interest you:  http://www.fuel-saver.org  There's a guy who has installed 2 HHO devices a Ford Probe and is getting over 80mpg using this HHO stuff. 

It's time to hold on to your wallets. Pennsylvania legislators want to allow electric companies to start slowly with the increases NOW that are coming our way as the contracts run out in two years for the increase in oil prices. So,we don't get slammed with the increase overnight.
Apparently we see the increases in our gasoline immediatley.
There's so much coal here in the USA. Why can't we use it.


Fred

We've had some increases in electric over the last couple of years.  The power company we use is seeking another increase again.  Probably for the very same reason you outlined.

Here in the NE I'm getting concerned about the cost of fuel oil to heat this coming winter.  Some big changes (conservation) will be coming to my household this winter.

I'm still thinking about converting my oil burner over to a multi-fuel burner.

So they rake in all that extra money from customers between now and the next two years, to make the jolt less painful then?  If they invest that surcharge for the next two years into an interest-bearing fund that will further delay the full price increase beyond the present contract, to further cushion the rates increase and drag it out over a  couple of additional years into the new contract, it wouldn't be such a bad deal. 

But I'd almost be willing to bet that is not part of the plan.

Well, I've been researching this over and over...I had initially thought of switching to an electric from propane boiler. Initially, that would be cheaper per BTU (here), but electric rates are going up. For about the same investment as an electric boiler and peripherals, I could install evacuated tube solar panels on the south facing part of the roof. a 7'x27' area would do for now.

The key thing is overnight heat storage. Some have used stored hot water, some have heated piles of rocks, but since I've got a heated radiant slab on the first floor, that 50+ tons of concrete will have decent thermal inertia.

I guesstimate saving 30%-40% off the fossil fuel bills by adding the solar.

Let's not forget heating with a pellet stove. We are toasty warm with our system and my heating bill for next winter has been paid. $488 + $100 delivery. A little over 2 tons of pellets. (A healthy fella and his skinny wife unloaded the 80 bags in 15 minutes on the two pallets in my garage) The discount for pellets will be over in another month.
The house would normally be in the high $300's per month with Nat Gas. There's a little maintenance involved to keep the stove and the flue clean from the soot build up. Usually a tear down and cleaning out the ashes every 2 mos. It will run on our coldest period in Western Pa 24 hrs /day.
Fred

Hi Bob and others ... what do you think of this HHO technology? ... It has been rumoured for years that very high mpg engines existed but were being squashed for obvious reasons ... meow ...73 ...John

You can buy this stuff, "evacuated solar tubes."  I didn't know they were available to civilians.  Can you give me a pointer?

Here's a couple of places I had bookmarked.
http://www.builditsolar.com/
http://www.aaasolar.com/AAASolarCatalog2008.pdf

http://www.sunmaxxsolar.com/sunmaxx-30-evacuated-tube-solar-collector.php

They'll give you 30% off the MSRP. Seem to work amazingly well, better than the flat plate collectors. More efficient, more tolerant of sun angle and operate at hotter temps. I saw a demo of one making 130 degree water in New York on a cloudy winter day. Two of the 30-series panels should be able to make a max ~~8,000 BTU/HR around here in the winter.

Thanks.   I just installed something else( http://tctsolar.com/doc/specguide.pdf ). I think the evacuated tube stuff is better.

For years SUVs have been the cash cow of American car companies like GM, Ford, and Chrysler. But with gas prices hitting $4/gallon nobody wants to pay the $100/tank or more to fill up their large gas guzzlers anymore. These inefficient beasts have seen sales drop precipitously in the last few months and trade in values are dropping thousands of dollars each month. Some are calling this the death of the SUV. GM is reportedly selling off its Hummer line.

The end of America's love affair with the SUV is turning into an expensive divorce. Drivers wanting to get rid of the gas-guzzlers as pump prices hit $4 a gallon are losing a lot of money on the sales—if they can even find buyers. Some SUV owners find themselves owing the bank more than their vehicle is worth.

Car dealerships are offering steep discounts, offering 0% APR financing, and writing inventive ads but often find the behemoths impossible to shift. Experts in the field of auto sales think the switch to more fuel-efficient vehicles will be a permanent move.

But what to do if you let yourself get sucked in by the hype and already bought one of the POS's (unless you happen to one of the rare individuals who actually has a need for such a vehicle)?  Best to just bite the bullet and keep on driving it until it craps out.  The amount of money you would most likely lose in a trade-in would far exceed the extra $1.50/gallon you are now paying to fuel it, compared to what you paid when you bought the thing, for the rest of its useful life.

My brother-in-law is one of the few people who actually has a use for a SUV.  He maintains two-way radio systems for the state of California, and some of his sites are on mountaintops near Lake Tahoe.  It is a steep climb, difficult any time of year, and sometimes the snow gets too deep even for his SUV in winter.  I visited him once during the month of June and he took me with him up to one of the sites.  We got hit by snow and sleet while we were up on the mountain!

Honestly, I don't know much about the HHO technology.  After hearing a few at work talk about how they installed homebrewed devices in their vehicles and got some good results and they giving me some websites and info to look at, I said to myself what the hell do I have to lose.  So I built something out of real cheap materials to the tune of about $50.00 and with some stuff I had kicking around the house. There was no real science applied to it.  Just good ole mechanical and electrical construction and a teensy-weensy bit of chemistry.  So I slapped one together.

I may try something else to see if a larger gain in gas output can be done without increasing the current draw.

The most fun part of the project was filling 1L soda bottles with the gas and launching them into the air.

thats great news don.  my wife has been wantin a hummer for a long time.  was by the dealer the other day and the discounts are deep enough i just might have to write a big check.  for her doesnt really matter she drive 5 miles to work.  as for me my work truck is an 06 crewcab 1ton dodge deisel.. spend about 1k a month in fuel.  lovin every mile... for those of you in Riolinda 1k means 1000

-ah, good for you. I saw a very spiffed up, bronze H2 for sale parked in good view of I-79 today.   Don't stampede; use the best of economic thinking.
You might even get a better deal on a very little used one other than brand new.

 Some of the alternative thought processes remind me of an old tune... (if your in your 30's); not too old for the rest of us.

Granted that fuel efficient cars are a lot better built and more reliable these days, but can't get the tune out of my mind even if I can't remember most of the words.

"La La LaLa sumpin', in their Ugos.... "

It'll come back to me.

In a Yugo
As the snow flies

At a used car lot on the edge of town
A liberal guy and a liberal gal
Buy a Yugo

And they drive with pride

Cause if there's one thing that this world needs
It's environmental friends who'll take the lead
In a Yugo

They say, "people don't you understand
Those suburbans are ruining the land"
But they'll wish they had a full size van one day
They point fingers at you and me
They say we're too blind to see
But do we simply use our heads
And choose another way?

As those small wheels turn
Fifty miles to the gallon
And their knees on their chest
They're gonna save enough gas
For all of the rest
In a Yugo

Then one day on the interstate
They suddenly lose control
They swerve to miss a baby duck
They're squashed beneath a produce truck

But they drove with pride...

And as the crowds drive past a little flat car
You know they saved a lot of gas
But they didnt get far
In a Yugo

And as they're trapped inside
At a used car lot on the other side of town
A liberal guy and a liberal gal
Buy a Yugo....

http://humor.beecy.net/songs/Elvis/

I have need of a pickup truck. Work requires a 4-door vehicle to receive the generous car allowance. An SUV can be a waste of metal. I'd never have one of the bloated road-pigs, the crew cab pickup gets the same or better miles and can haul more goods. What is very funny is all the stuck-up yuppies with 4x4 SUV's now howling about mileage! They never needed the silly things except to bully others on the road.

2WIG,

Wonderful !
Glad you found it.  Played it twice.

... tears to my eyes.
Sure brings back memories....  "huh ho, or ho huh" as VJB would say.

Funny...Seems like no one is ambivalent about SUVs and pickups...Either you like 'em or you hate 'em.

I drive a diesel F-250 for work and I've received a one-finger salute several times lately...Doesn't happen when I'm driving the little Ford Focus- LOL.
Not trying to make a statement, but it's awfully hard to drive up to those mountaintop radio sites with 500# of tools and equipment in the little guy. Or tow a 29' camper...Or a flatbed with four tons of hay...Now, you want a workout, go stack all that hay by hand into a 90 degree barn wearing long sleeves...Takes the meanness right out of you.

((sigh))

Sounds like my brother-in-law.  You have a need for it and use it for what it was designed for.

The ones I feel like giving the one-finger salute to are those who make it a point to bully others on the road with their big pickup or SUV but don't dare carry any cargo in the back because they are too afraid of putting a small scratch on the finish.  Kinda reminds me of the slopbucketeers who try to run other people off the frequency with big leenyars complete with lots of blower noise and shitty sounding audio.

A friend of mine bought a Scion xB.  He took me for a spin.  I was impressed with the roominess inside , the comfort for its size and the rectangular boxy shape that would allow it to hold a lot of stuff for its footprint.  But then I looked over the thing and realised that with the tiny wheels and the chassis riding so low to the ground, it wouldn't take a tremendous amount of weight to make it drag the pavement.  Even though there is a lot of cargo space for the size of the car, I doubt that it would carry very many modulation transformers.

drive a Yugo in the ghetto ....hmmmmm

Who are you to decide or even opine who "actually has a need for such a vehicle"?

I may actually value the safety of my family over some fuzzy wuzzy environmental dogsqueeze. That's my choice. You may be fine putting your wife & kids in some tiny, tinny death trap. That's your choice. You live with your choice, I'll live with mine, that's America.

Sounds like you'd be happier in commie China where your "choices" are government controlled.



 

whoa...

It's a debating point, not to get too riled up about it. ;D

There is a contingent that does drive big SUV's for the social value....  , the statement, the keeping up with the Jones.'      Perhaps there's a contingent that also use cars as an agressive outlet.  And, no doubt, there's a contingent that utilizes the safety aspects as a selling point even before the purchase, but in many cases of those flying the safety flag I have my doubts.

There are also tons of reasons to get a smaller, economical and well constructed truck or car.

I think that type of thinking is what Don meant; not a full ship of the line broadside at any one person's proclivities....

Don may not even respond to such fusilades directly.
Such is the mark of a Gentleman.

Then again....  you may be in for some interesting reading.
 

I bought a small SUV that gets 25 mpg on the highway, mainly to pull my "vacation home" , a pop-up camper.    It was getting a little dicey pulling it with my 1980 Impala over the mountains.    Didn't think my 13 year-old Honda would last to much longer if I tried pulling the camper with it.   On a long trip, it is better on the back than the Honda.   There are reasons why people buy the vehicles they need or want.

It riles me when others want to make my decisions because they see themselves as having some special, anointed wisdom. It's the height of arrogance & condescension to think you (or Don or anyone else) knows what is best for me.

A gentleman does not condescend upon the decisions of others when he has no clue what went into those decisions.

This type of arrogance & condescension is the genesis of tyranny.

Man, it looks like they really sucked you in good!

And it's debatable whether or not SUV's and other road-hogs are even as safe as compacts:


http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

It's all a tradeoff, Don.

The big vehicles are, as you state, less maneuverable. And you're no better off if you go off the road or collide with a fixed object. A case could be made that one is *more* likely to lose it in a truck or SUV...Most of the vehicles I see in ditches, rolled, collided with highway barriers or upside down are disproportionally SUVs and pickup trucks, and our State Highway Patrol has published the statistics to back my assertion up.

The *only* safety advantage is when two vehicles collide directly into each other, the one with more mass generally wins.

No matter how expert a driver one might be, you can't handle or maneuver a truck or SUV like a far more nimble car.

Pick your poison.

SUV's have a high center of gravity, will roll over during evasive maneuvers, where the low center of gravity sedans will not.    There is actually a warning in the owners manual for my Mazda Tribute about this.

Here you go...From today's Denver Post.
The fellow might have avoided this accident if he was in a car:

----------------

A Paonia man was killed yesterday in a rollover accident near Cimarron.

John M. Egger, was driving a maroon 1991 Ford Explorer eastbound on Forest Road 858 about noon, the Colorado State Patrol said in a news release.

Egger was 16.2 miles west of Colorado 50 near Silver Jack Reservoir when he overcorrected after veering off the right side of the road. The Explorer rolled six times down a steep embankment, the release said, ejecting Egger.

He was killed.

Question

Which will do the most damage to you and your vehicle: if you are travelling in a Ford Explorer at 60 mph, and hit another Explorer coming directly towards you at 60mph  head-on, or if you are travelling 60 mph and drive head-on into a solid stone wall?

Don:
Aren't you colliding with one object at 120 MPH, or another at 60 MPH?
If so, the answer is obvious.
I once took a professional driving course that an employer paid for, the word was to avoid a head-on at all costs, even if you had to collide with something off the side of the road.

Most people don't NEED anything more than a motorcyle or maybe even a bicycle. All this discussion about what type of vehicles people need (even people one doesn't know) seems rather silly.

The jury has been in for some time on the relative danger of small cars:


    *     According to a 2003 NHTSA study, when a vehicle is reduced by 100 pounds the estimated fatality rate increases as much as 5.63 percent for light cars weighing less than 2,950 pounds, 4.70 percent for heavier cars weighing over 2,950 pounds and 3.06 percent for light trucks.  Between model years 1996 and 1999, these rates translated into additional traffic fatalities of 13,608 for light cars, 10,884 for heavier cars and 14,705 for light trucks.

    *     A 2001 National Academy of Sciences panel found that constraining automobile manufacturers to produce smaller, lighter vehicles in the 1970s and early 1980s "probably resulted in an additional 1,300 to 2,600 traffic fatalities in 1993."
     
    *     An extensive 1999 USA Today analysis of crash data found that since CAFE went into effect in 1978, 46,000 people died in crashes they otherwise would have survived, had they been in bigger, heavier vehicles.  This, according to a 1999 USA Today analysis of crash data since 1975, roughly figures to be 7,700 deaths for every mile per gallon gained in fuel economy standards.

    *     The USA Today report also said smaller cars - such as the Chevrolet Cavalier or Dodge Neon - accounted for 12,144 fatalities or 37 percent of vehicle deaths in 1997, though such cars comprised only 18 percent of all vehicles.

    *     A 1989 Harvard-Brookings study estimated CAFE "to be responsible for 2,200-3,900 excess occupant fatalities over ten years of a given [car] model years' use."  Moreover, the researchers estimated between 11,000 and 19,500 occupants would suffer serious but nonfatal crash injuries as a result of CAFE.

    *     The same Harvard-Brookings study found CAFE had resulted in a 500-pound weight reduction of the average car.  As a result, occupants were put at a 14 to 27 percent greater risk of traffic death.

    *     Passengers in small cars die at a much higher rate when involved in traffic accidents with large cars.  Traffic safety expert Dr. Leonard Evans estimates that drivers in lighter cars may be 12 times as likely to be killed in a crash when the other vehicle is twice as heavy as the lighter car.

Useful Quotes

In addition to the above studies, the following quotes provide a quick reference point of safety experts' results and statements on the consequences of CAFE regulations as they relate to vehicle safety.

    *     "The negative relationship between weight and occupant fatality risk is one of the most secure findings in the safety literature."
    -Dr. Robert W. Crandall, Brookings Institution, and John D. Graham, Ph.D., Harvard School of Public Health19

    *     "Why Does CAFE kill?  It does so because it constrains the production of larger cars and, in most modes of collision, larger, heavier cars are more protective of their occupants than are small cars."
    -Sam Kazman, Competitive Enterprise Institute

    *     "n terms of just the total number of lives, when I purchase a larger car, there is a reduction of risk.  I'm safer, and so is society overall... We can conclude, beyond any reasonable doubt, that when weight is reduced, as it must be under CAFE, we will increase casualties."
    -Dr. Leonard Evans, physicist, author of Traffic Safety and president of Science Serving Society

    *     "During the past 18 years, the office of Technology Assessment of the United States Congress, the National Safety Council, the Brookings Institution, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the General Motors Research Laboratories and the National Academy of Sciences all agreed that reductions in the size and weight of passenger cars pose a safety threat."
    -National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

    *     "If you want to solve the safety puzzle, get rid of small cars."
    -Brian O'Neill, Insurance Institute for Highway Safety


    *     "The conclusion is that CAFE has caused, and is causing, increased deaths.... CAFE kills, and higher CAFE standards will kill even more."
    -Dr. Leonard Evans, physicist, author of Traffic Safety and President of Science Serving Society

Yea..I wana see a Soccer Mom On a Moped..LOL...

As for Bicycles they are a Worse Hazard, especially when The Racer riders Heed to no road Rules...except they're own...Qute Wittle helmets...an those little Tight Pants...LOLOL.. ;D High Speed Low Drag.... ;D

Just Cut back on usage...Walk more, Shop less....save money....they'll get the message...sooner or later...

They wana tighten up the economy, Tighten up yer wallet...

Actually, if both vehicles are the same mass, the result would be exactly the same, whether you had a  head-on with the other vehicle or hit a solid wall, due to the law of conservation of momentum.

In the case of the head-on with an identical vehicle, each one would decelerate from 60 mph to zero (coming to a complete rest) in a fraction of a second.  If one of the vehicles hit a solid wall, it would undergo exactly the same deceleration (complete rest) and thus undergo the same degree of damage.

But if you were driving a Mini-Cooper at 60 mph and collided head on with a concrete truck at 60 mpg, you would sustain the most damage, because the velocity of the concrete truck would be practically unchanged, while the Mini would decelerate from 60 mph to nearly -60mph, which would be the equivalent of hitting the stone wall at close to 120 mph.  The concrete truck would sustain little damage because it would undergo very little deceleration.

But as far as safety is concerned, the Mini-Cooper would be smaller and more agile, so it might be better able to avoid a collision with another vehicle than the concrete truck or the Ford Explorer.

But is the problem large cars or small cars?  This is like arguing about whether your beer glass is half empty or half full.  If the majority of vehicles are massive, then a collision is likely to be more devastating if you drive a smaller car.  But if the majority cars are smaller and lighter in weight, then this becomes a non-issue because there is no reason why collisions between two compact cars would cause any more (or any fewer) fatalities than collisions between two heavy cars.  The problem is when a compact car collides with a heavy car.

As the cost of fuel continues to rise, economic and market forces will drive the public to purchase more fuel efficient, thus lighter weight vehicles, so once the SUV's and trophy pick-ups presently on the road wear out (or are abandoned by their owners), the majority of vehicles will be lightweight and compact, just is it has been for decades in places like Europe and Japan where fuel costs have historically been high.

The US sustains roughly 40,000-50,000 road deaths per year, and this seems to be tolerated by the public, without question.  But if you or I designed and marketed any kind of consumer product to the public that killed 40,000 people the first year, not only would the product be recalled; we would most likely end up behind bars for the rest of our natural life, if we managed to avoid being strung up by a lynch mob before the trial.

Or get rid of large ones.  Which alternative would save the most energy and the most money?

lmao, now this thread finally got interesting and entertaining. I wish everyone did drive little gas sippers, that would leave more diesel for me. (To convert into a delicious deep black coal storm when I push on the skinny pedal)

Personally, it's not about little vs. big vs. this one is safer, or that one is safer, blah blah blah. It's about comfort, period. Life is way too short to be cramped up like sardines in some tinker toy shitbox that can't get out of it's own way over what, a few bucks in a gas.

Stop trying to squeeze a friggin dollar out of everything and lets live our lives.

rant; off
73

Warning: This post was typed with Winbloze XPpro SP3, so this computer is likely to crash before this post is entered on the internet.

I'd like to see something like the AMC Pacer come back. It was wide, comfy, big hatchback with fold down rear seats, could haul stuff, had decent ground clearance, and had an inline 6 so there was some hood and engine out there for protection. With 110HP, it did well on the road. A modern version could get very good MPG I imagine.

Most new cars stink because they are too narrow. Before I had the truck, I had a 2002 crown victoria. It was a gas hog and used as much fuel as the full size 2004 truck I now have, despite having a smaller engine. I got rid of it because I need to transport plate transformers across state lines and lifting them out of the CV's trunk was a pain. I gave up on small cars after being broadsided by a caddilace while driving a GEO (Suzuki Swift).

There is another issue - people demand alot of horsepower and acceleration, so they can 'own the road' better and get around those annoying slowly driven vehicles. My pickup truck does not need a gasoline 5.3 liter 300HP engine and the fuel consumption that comes with it. It would be OK with 150HP. Engines today are designed to wring every last bit of power out of them, so going with the V6 in a full size truck is asking for trouble down the road if the truck is used as a truck. Diesels are more durable. I am not very concerned with acceleration. Turn slow-go fast -that is how modern over the road tractors are being designed, and they design them to squeeze mileage. It would be great to have a 150HP diesel with 300FT-LBS of torque. More gears would be needed but it would be worth it.

Allison transmission has a few models that convert the engine's power to electricity, and then back to motion. I am not up on the latest innovations, but that kind of design could be used with some batteries for regenerative braking and better economy in stop/go traffic. Like a next generation hybrid.

Couldn't agree more. Nothing like someone with a huge inefficient AM transmitter in their basement that takes up 12 kcs. on the band lecturing others that they should change what they drive to save energy. Can't beat that for entertainment.

Authoritarian socialism.................it's for you own good.

BTW, 20 pages and not a single mention of how you could save money by starting a business. I hope you aren't paying for all your utilities and fuel and vehicle costs with AFTER TAX DOLLARS.

Let me pick on Bill HG for a minute. He has a big truck and a small car. That car should be for personal transportation. All expenses on the truck should be written off on taxes as business expenses including 20% of the value of the truck each year for 5 years until its fully depreciated. Maybe Bill will say he doesn't have a business. So start one. Mowing lawns, putting in fences, rotor tilling, landscaping, maybe driving to rich peoples houses and changing their oil for them(hey, driving to and then hanging around waiting to get it done is a PIA), anything as long as you need the truck to do it.

Lads, this is America.......There are a million ways to make a dollar.

You know hobbies aren't tax deductible but if that basement was used for a mail in electronic repair business, or refurbishing and selling old equipement, or making class E AM rigs and selling them, and its say 30% of the living area of your house then 30% of your utility and maintaince costs comes off your taxable income.

Aspen Brook Cycles & Touring. Do you know what it is? It's a business I started to give motorcycle tours in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah and South Dakota. You don't think I was actually going to buy a new 2006 Triumph Bonneville and not be able to write it off. Not only that but to give tours I have to drive all around on the bike checking out B&Bs, restaurants, hotels etc. All a valid business expense.

Apex Exploration Inc.
Aspen Brook Logging Inc.
Gran Electronics
Aspen Brook Cycles and Touring
Orion Drilling and Construction
Wind River Fishing Unlimited

I don't have a job so I start businesses.

You  can as well. You might even find you can make more money than your regular job.

73

Marty

The problem with this logic is that:
A) Over 50% of injuries & fatalities are from SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. No big car vs little car.

B) The solution to your hypothesized problem is the heavy hand of government - taking away one's freedom to be safer in their vehicle of choice. You would have to outlaw all vehicles over a certain mass so that everyone would be equally vulnerable in their little cars. Trucks make up a large percentage of vehicles on the road. Would you outlaw them also?

No, the answer to problems is almost NEVER more government control of the citizens but LESS government control. The current energy issues are no different. Free up nuclear plant licensing, offshore & ANWAR oil drilling, refinery building, clean coal usage, etc.

Sheesh, Marty...I ride the mower and do my own lawns strictly for mental therapy..LOL...Fencing? That's w-a-a-y too much like work, but I'm pretty good at it.

I do stick with what I know, and that is to do broadcast engineering on a contract basis for several area stations. Fifty cents a mile for travel expenses, as you know. The truck is an '02, so it's all paid off and depreciated.

I have been thinking of getting a used road grader at auction...There's a lot of private roads in this area that need maintenance and snow plowing. There also seems to be opportunity in small engine repair, mowers, generators, rototillers..Waiting a few years until closer to retirement from the day job, there's already too much on my plate. I haven't taken a real vacation without a pager or cell phone for 15 years, and that's taking a toll. Nevertheless, Marty makes a good point, there's usually an angle we can exploit to our benefit.

(Now I'm thinking about Jackie Gleason's business misadventures in the Honeymooners...Dog food appetizer was a classic...)


-b

Yep, we're all working for the IRS.  You chief overseer and master auditor.  So look at all the energy expended finding work-arounds, practices in compliance and such all in total subservience to IRS accounting rules.   um, hmmm.

Guess that "when in Rome..."
Have to do what we have to do.

Have a couple of businesses out of this house. (hey, put your wife to work too, more "savings.")    Oh she is already?  Doing the books?

The coin of exchange basis between control and subservience is taxation.

How's that for bitch by mantra?
   But that's the country and world we live in... always has been, always will.

Unit quantity of subservience ($/slave) =Top dog take (single individual or "enlightened," superior clique) / number of all the rest of us.

Fr Marty:

"So start one. Mowing lawns, putting in fences, rotor tilling, landscaping,"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lol, yeah the hell with all that noise. That's too much like manual labor.

This is what the Mexican's standing outside Home Depot are there for.

Actually, they don't stand outside the HD around here anymore. They put up a 10,000sq. ft. metal building dispatch center across the street from HD.

It works like a drive-thru. You drive in one end of the building, place your order, "Yeah, I'd like a #3 roofing, and ahhh,, I'll also have a #6 concrete and sidewalks."

Hola señor, you pull to dee front and we take care of yooo.

In the background; UNDELAY UNDELAY MUCHACHOS!! Get in the dee truck.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's pretty much about how it goes. You pull out and go get your work done. :P

73

Don't like to quote myself but here is another bit of evidence in support of the above:
Environmental Group Sues to Block Oil Refinery Expansion
Thursday, July 10, 2008
http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080709a.asp

They are so proud of themselves.

Terry, the last time I drove by that area on I-90 around four years ago on the way to Cleveland, the aroma from that refinery had us gagging in the car for five miles. It was awful. I couldn't believe it. The highway railings in the area were grossly corroded, too. They might just have a legitimate complaint. Or maybe not. The refineries around here don't bother me at all and never have.

I'm not sure but I might be with the wacko radical environmenalist commies on this one.   I followed your link.  If I read it right, the suit is about requiring air pollution equipment on the refinery like they have elsewhere in the country like out here.  What's wrong with that?

"Environmental groups have pointed to flare controls in California refineries where emissions have been greatly reduced with, among other things, redundant equipment and responsible operating practices. The Clean Air Act requires the use of “best available control technology” on expansion projects of this scale.
 
“The law entitles residents of Gary, Hammond, Whiting, and the rest of Northwest Indiana to the same protections as those enjoyed elsewhere in the U.S. The law says that a refinery on the shores of Lake Michigan should have the same control over its pollution as a refinery in California,” said Alexander. “In the ConocoPhillips case, the environmental review board at US EPA sent a message to oil refineries around the nation that it is time they clean up. We believe that the federal courts will support that precedent.”

>>>Are the best performers the biggest and heaviest vehicles on the road? Not at all.  Among the safest cars are the midsize imports, like the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord.   Or consider the extraordinary performance of some subcompacts, like the Volkswagen Jetta.   Drivers of the tiny Jetta die at a rate of just forty-seven per million, which is in the same range as drivers of the five-thousand-pound Chevrolet Suburban and almost half that of popular S.U.V. models like the Ford Explorer or the GMC Jimmy.   In a head-on crash, an Explorer or a Suburban would crush a Jetta or a Camry.<<<

Let us not just consider the inherent safety of the vehicle, but also the demographic of the typical driver of that vehicle...  The worst accident I ever witnessed was when a mom in a Land Rover, distracted on a cell phone call, crossed the median and collided head on with a semi - her car was ripped into 3 pieces, she was killed instantly, but her 2 kids strapped in the back survived.  There were kid toys and clothes strewn everywhere.  I saw the first responders sobbing at the scene, it was that horrible.  Get these moran yuppies to hang up their precious cell phones, and we'd all be safer.

Also, recall when the Ford Explorer was implicated in being in so many roll-over fatalities?  Actually the Lincoln Town Car has a much higher rate of roll-overs.  Not that it is a more dangerous car, on the contrary - it is all the elderly folks (God Bless 'Em!)  who chose this car to drive.

Worst and most gruesome accident I ever saw was many years ago.   A rather slow head-on collision between a 1960 Pontiac Bonneville and a tiny Isetta, a very small car with the door on the front.    The guy in the Isetta was crushed and killed, the Bonneville had a slight dent in the front bumper.

Seems like everyone is trying to find blame for the gas prices.    If our  money had not declined in value, gas would be around $2.   Without getting political you can draw your own conclusions why our currency has declined.    Investors are putting their money in hard assets to maintain their net worth such as oil, gold, etc.

Andy Grove (Intel founder) comes out for the electric car. I wonder what he drives. I also wonder what this publication is. Subscribe and get a free book by Newt.

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-contents/our-electric-future

PS This did not display correctly with FireFox 3.0.  I had to use something else to read it.

I'm surprised someone  hasn't already petitioned the FCC to outlaw AM to "save energy".  About every other bogus excuse has been tried as justification to do that.

Of course, that would be at best "feel good" legislation.  What percentage would this reduce overall US energy consumption, maybe 0.0000001%?  Like that ridiculous legislation that extended Daylight Shifting Time nonsense to begin in late winter, which predictably had little effect on energy consumption, but what effect it actually had was reported to be a slight increase as people turned on lights earlier in the winter morning and thermostats were turned up for an extra hour during pre-dawn, the coldest part of the day.

And the significant falloff in amateur radio activity in the last decade or so, combined with the phone band expansion, makes "12 kHz wide" signals as bogus an issue as the energy consumed to generate carriers.


Who has proposed to outlaw heavy cars?  The on again/off again attempts at legislation would mandate fuel efficiency, not vehicle size. If someone can build a heavy SUV that gets 75 mpg, more power to them. Market forces is what will kill off the N. American gas/road hogs. As the cost of fuel (along with everything else) continues to rise while the dollarette continues to lose purchasing power, people will simply quit buying monstrous vehicles for commuting to the office and back every day, and find other status symbols .  SUV sales have already hit rock bottom, and the motor industry would be hard pressed to deplete its unsold inventory even if they offered to give the things away.

With the cost of diesel running at close to $5/gallon, far more efficient rail transport for long distance hauling is looking more and more attractive.  Actually, I would love to not have the share the road with tractor-trailer rigs and a few of the arrogant SOB's who drive them.

The trucking industry is an example of socialism at its worst.  The rail industry had to purchase their own right-of-way and build and maintain their own tracks, while government tax money built the interstate highway system to heavy trucking standards, allowing that industry to kill the railways.  The trucking industry is heavily subsidised with government-built roads, with road taxes imposed at a rate that amounts to a fraction of the real cost to the public resulting from road wear-out and loss of life and property due to tractor trailer accidents.

With the current price of diesel, I have heard numerous stories of independent truckers who have about decided to throw in the sponge.  It is costing them about everything they make off hauling goods just to fill the fuel tanks.

It's a great pity that the N. American rail system was allowed to deteriorate and fall apart, and that our rail infrastructure was dismantled and right-of-way sold for other development, forcing the US and Canada to remain dependent on highly inefficient long-distance trucking to move goods, regardless of its cost.  Transport cost is one of the major factors in why everything we have to buy to-day is rising in price.

Our rail system was built on government subsidies and land give-aways in the late 19th century also.    Once they were paid for they should have been maintained rather than subsidizing the trucking industry.     Not all railroad properties have been developed.    Many were given or purchased for the rails-to-trails movement.   The right-of-ways are still there and in some cases are being bought back for railroads.

Had the enviros been around 100 years ago we'd all be walking on dirt roads now and scrounging for root vegetables. There would be no Texas oil fields, no refineries anywhere, no coal fired plants, no nuke plants - nothing.

We are literally watching the slow death of our country unfold before us.  GM, Ford their suppliers and service companies are laying off hundreds of thousands of employees with the resulting ripple effect throughout the society. What we don't see are the tens of thousands of jobs not created due to enviro restrictions on nuke plants, refineries, drilling equipment, oil jobs, coal jobs, etc.

We are a society that runs on energy - end of story. By artificially killing the growth of our energy sources the enviros are killing our society (I believe this is the real goal of the hard core leaders, their actions could have no other meaning) and posing a serious national security risk as we rely on unfriendly nations for the lifeblood of our economy.

I urge everyone to call/write their representatives today & urge them to tell the enviros to go to hell.

From another internet forum:


Whole thread (http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=168933)


But just as I said earlier, if you are stuck with a behemoth, you are probably better off keeping it than trying to sell or trade it.

Trading in gas guzzler may cost you (http://biz.yahoo.com/brn/080502/25295.html?.v=1&.pf=family-home)

There's a whole bunch of SUVs around here parked in lots and in driveways close to the street with For Sale signs on them. Some very nice boats, too. Seems a lot of folks are getting desperate, newspaper and online ads aren't working. Is that local to here or is it noticeable elsewhere?

What America needs is a new financial bubble to invest in. Yeah.

Got my PA property tax rebate of $111.    The school board increased the tax rate so that it still is higher this year.

On the oil drilling, if the US produces 2% of the worlds oil, and it's a global market, seems to me it won't mean diddley-squat on prices when new wells eventually are drilled.    Making new nuclear power plants, building better hybrid  car batteries and plug-in hybrids cars will lower oil prices.

I think that it would better sell the proposed offshore and arctic drilling if the President or economic advisers  would tell us how much effect this might have on oil prices and availability. Will these new sources of American petro reduce prices by 1%, 10% or what?  Surely they can hazard an educated guess based on certain assumptions.

And what is the objection to offshore drilling? I don't care about 'aesthetics', we already already have rigs off much of the coasts, and there's thousands of rigs all over the place around here, and no one seems to complain.

Give it to us straight, for cryin' out loud. I'm getting tired of the BS on both sides of the issue.

Even if they could magically drill all the wells and get them up and going to-morrow, how many years of oil supply would we get? I'd say less than one generation, then we will be back where we are again.

I recall back in the 70's during the first oil panic.  North Sea oil was supposed to be a godsend, but now it's running dry (http://www.moneyweek.com/file/19848/the-shocking-truth-about-north-sea-oil.html).  And all that other oil that's supposed to be waiting to be drilled and pumped out is a temporary solution at best.

Besides, what about all those oil leases that are reportedly sitting idle now?

One of the very few sensible pieces of proposed energy legislation I have heard of recently is "use it or lose it".  It would cancel oil leases that are not exploited within a certain time limit and open them up for re-bidding.

If we can drill our way into energy independence, we need to look at that. If we can't, then we need to look at that as well, Don.

Besides, if we simply burn up all of our petroleum, what are the alternatives for its other necessary uses like making plastics, pharmaceuticals, chemicals or synthetic rubber? You need natural gas to make the necessary fertilizer for modern agriculture. No natural gas, no food. Our modern society can't exist without these products.

I know there is a US Energy Information Agency analysis of ANWR put out this year. It predicts a decrease in the cost per barrel between .41 and $1.41 starting in about ten years and peaking in twenty.  Here's a US News article about it.  I haven't tracked down a link to the actual report:

http://tinyurl.com/444wpj

I don't know of such a report for additional offshore. 

I don't think these things are linear.  I believe that two ANWR's would have more effect that 2 x 1.41.  I guess at this point we need a serious economist.

There is aprox. 200 billion barrels of known reserves in the US a huge chunk of which are in no drill zones both on land & off shore. Remember that they keep discovering new oil fields all the time so this number will grow (According the Energy Information Administration as of January 2007 there was more than 1.3 trillion barrels of proved crude oil on earth. In 1944 the quantity stood at 20 billion. In 1950 it leaped to 100 billion and in 1980 it was 648 billion. In 1993 the world’s proved reserves grew to 999 billion, and today they stand at 1.3 trillion barrels. There are several reasons for this. New exploration and advancements in surveying techniques in particular result in fresh finds almost every year). This does not include the over 1 trillion barrels in the western oil shale that they will soon figure out how to recover economically and safely (Royal Dutch Shell is working on that now).
We import about 4.7 billion barrels annually so our known oil reserves would give us about 43 years of supply. However our oil use is declining & will decline even more if we bring nuclear plants online & employ clean coal & convert to natural gas where possible.

Speaking of natural gas, the numbers are even more staggering for no touch gas.   

Oil companies spent billions of dollars for those leases in good faith, they are legal & binding and you'd "cancel" them. That is dangerous thinking!

Here's a few facts that will hopefully change your mind from Investors Business Daily July 3, 2008:
"Drilling has increased by more than 66% since 2000 (on those leases). They are searching for oil even as you read this. Some parts of those 68 million acres will have oil, some won't. But at $145 a barrel, you can bet oil companies have plenty of incentive to find it. That said, 68 million acres is in fact a minuscule amount. Some 94% of federal lands — 658 million acres — remains off-limits to exploration. Another 97% — or 1.7 billion acres — of federal offshore properties likewise remains off-limits. These lands contain tens of billions of barrels of recoverable oil. It's there for the taking, now.

How much energy is there? Federal lands, according to the American Petroleum Institute, hold 651 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, enough to fuel 60 million households for 160 years. They hold at least 116 billion barrels of oil, maybe more. That's enough to fuel 65 million cars and provide fuel oil for 3.2 million homes for 60 years.

I also liked the tid bit on Container Transport, Cost effectiveness wise, what it did cost for sea transport as opposed to what it cost Now...has increased almost three times...per unit...very close to three times and will reflect what increases that do come to pass,...

Subsequent reversal of overseas commodity trading...of sorts...Bring back the work...it's gud for the country...let it all go up...

 

It's always amazed me that we can buy silicon wafers from Asia, ship them to Europe or the USA, make chips, ship the chips to malaysia or wherever for packaging (put the die chip in the black package with leads) and then ship them globally to customers, doing all of this on time, and still turn profits.

I'd like to see it all done here as it was at one time. Nobody suffered because of that.

Personally, if a regular TV set cost $1200 and a video recorder $900, it would not bother me a bit, if they were made in the USA by Americans. This wouldn't cheat the poor (liberals might shriek), those with less money would, as they did before, have the old TV set fixed, and buy used TV's. My father bought used TV sets. We usually fixed the TV ourselves (others might have taken them to TV repair shops). I have always bought used TV sets and all other major appliances and there is no shame in that. Unfortunately you can't get rebuilt picture tubes any more so when these go, that's it.

Most people here are spoiled and selfish, wanting everything for little or nothing, and they suckle at the sticky-sweet teat of cheap products from faraway lands where labor is worth little and life is worth less. A friend of mine used to brag about how much of his stuff was made by slave labor in China. Bring it all back is exactly right!

This is the very ugly truth. Unfortunately, big chains like wally world and the sort keep popping up stuffed full of products poorly made oversea's, and all the mindless sheep run right in and give up they're dollars. There's never going to be an end to it. Bring products back to American manufacture; never going to happen. As long as the weak minded population refuses to learn how to fend for themselves, this country will continue on it's downward spiral into oblivion.

What's even more amazing is that we are shipping drinking water across the sea.



If they were worth it, built to last, and capable of being repaired.  I wouldn't pay those kinds prices for the same cheap throw-away consumer crap we now get from China.




Nor is there any shame in dumpster diving. I have had confrontations with dump personnel about pulling stuff out and bringing it home. Some of my best clothes are what I bought at Salvation Army and Goodwill.  Our clothes dryer is over 20 years old.  The washing machine was replaced a couple of years ago after it crapped out, after over 25 years of use.  Every other appliance was bought new and has outlasted its predicted life span by at least a factor of two.  My last few cars were bought brand new, regularly maintained and driven until they were worn out.

One of the biggest problems I have with the American economy and our very way of life these days is that they are based more and more on waste and "consumption".  I despise to be called a "consumer".

Yeah Don, we've been in a battle with Sears the last few days.

Our 1-1/2 year old Kenmore washing machine crapped out...The motor just buzzes until the breaker trips.

I had an independent guy come out to look at it and he said the transmission had seized and it would cost $400 to fix it. Called Sears and got no help at all, other than the gal on the phone said, "Yes, they don't make them like they used to...Sorry,the 1 year warranty has expired, you shoulda bought the extended warranty..."

Grrr.

My wife, God bless her, found the sales paperwork for the washer and noted the motor and transmission had a 5-year warranty.

Called Sears back, they're charging me another $75 bucks to come out to look at the thing on Thursday. "The person you talked to was mistaken..."

I think their business depends on wearing people out.

The days of an appliance lasing many years and being repairable are over. I initially thought a belt, motor start capacitor or something simple had failed, but no more $5 belts and a new capacitor didn't help. either. Instead, there's a $300 transmission. This is progress?

Don, I *want* to fix the thing, but it might be cheaper to take it to the landfill and replace it. How could I not waste and consume?

Does Sears even care that I'll never buy another thing from them again?

   "  Does Sears even care that I'll never buy another thing from them again?   "

No, they don't.    Does Ford think i'll buy another car from them?  No.

You may be suprized... do a google search for the washer with the exact serial number.... the trannie for my old sears washer cost about $12  from the local parts store....

try this

http://www.applianceblog.com/mainforums/forumdisplay.php?f=13
 
 
 

Those are great maps.   Looks like the Gulf of Mexico has a lot of potential for oil. The numbers there have another zero compared to my neck of the woods which ain't so bad either.

I search for stuff made in the USA and will pay a hefty premium for it.  I was shocked and pleased to buy some plastic file boxes yesterday, all made in the USA.  I was disappointed when I declined to buy the made in China forstner bit at Home Depot, went to OSH (local hardware chain) where I'd seen one for more money, figured it was made in the USA only to discover it was Chinese too, just had a heftier profit margin.  I declined to buy new hinges for some doors here because I could only find made in China.  I left in the old, banged up Made in USA ones.  When I find food in the grocery store imported from China (you'd be surprised) I put it back on the shelf.  I'm very grumpy on this subject but the choices are limited.  I haven't found the websites like http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/ very useful

I'm just as grumpy as Don about consumerism.  I'd still be driving the '93 Villager if my niece didn't need a car and we got all soft and sold it to her cheap. You know I thought that was an American car when I bought it. I mean it was a Mercury.  It was actually half Japanese.  What a superb vehicle.  It was still great after 15 years.  She totalled it in six months.  I'm still pissed.

By keeping things outside this country makes the Spigot Control Sequence easier...

If a group of Amateurs can sit down at a machine designed for calculations, research an discuss the problem, find the solution, Agree on the course of action and understand the outcome and possibilities...

and how many of us on this forum are actually involved in this field...?

It only reinforces the obvious in my mind, but what a better way to control the market, wished I'd have thought of it.

only if shes hot and wearin hot pants or a micro mini

I never had a problem with quality foreign made cars.  VW started the trend with the old Beetle back in the 50's, when the US was offering only large tanks that had a tendency to quickly fall apart.  Then Toiletota got in on the act.  The Japs and Germans were doing research on reliability and efficiency while the Yank Tank manufacturers were still devoting their research money towards color and body style preferences.

VW, that long claimed to shun "planned obsolescence", actually got in on the act stealthily long before the original Beetle was discontinued.  Back in the 70's I owned a Karman-Ghia and so did Diane.  Ours were no more than a year or two apart, but nearly all the parts were slightly different, just enough so that they weren't interchangeable... a different size bushing here, mounting screws that weren't the same size there, mounting holes that didn't quite match up, etc.  When buying a replacement part, we usually had to make sure we were purchasing one for the exact model  year, or else 90% of the time it wouldn't fit, and the guy at the parts store at the VW dealer said they did it that way on purpose.  I think that's about when people began to catch on to what was happening and VW sales plummeted as people turned to "Jap Crap".

I wore out 3 Corollas, and never got less than 160,000 miles out of any one of them.  One made it past 200k after I replaced a cracked cylinder head with something I found at a junk yard.  About 20 years ago, got a good deal on a new Mercury Sable.  It was comfortable, the gas mileage wasn't bad (but nothing to write home about).  It was comfortable on long trips.  I would still be driving it if it hadn't crapped out at 120K.  It started leaking coolant, which was mixing in with the oil, but decided to  get rid of it instead of trying to get the problem fixed, because other minor failures were beginning to occur almost weekly. 

My son picked up a used Oldsmobile Cutlass, and after driving it a few years, gave it to my daughter.  It got about the same lifespan as the Sable, crapping out somewhere about 125k. I bought a brand new Mazda Protégé, and it's still running FB OM at 151k.  Diane bought a Mazda MPV (our son right away started harassing her by naming it the "Menopause Van").  It gets about the same mileage as the old Sable, but is still running with no serious problems at 110K, and we use it for long trips and plan to still keep it for a long time to come.

Of  course, most "American" cars are now full of parts made in Mexico, Japan and elsewhere in Asia (undoubtedly before long to include China), while many of the  "Foreign" cars are now assembled in USA, so the lines of distinction between US and foreign cars is blurred.  It was on the regional news this morning that VW now plans to build a new manufacturing plant in Chattanooga.

>>>Some 94% of federal lands — 658 million acres — remains off-limits to exploration. Another 97% — or 1.7 billion acres — of federal offshore properties likewise remains off-limits. These lands contain tens of billions of barrels of recoverable oil. It's there for the taking, now.<<<

Uhh, doesn't the constitution prohibit the federal government from owning land except for use by Post Offices and military bases? 

  "  Uhh, doesn't the constitution prohibit the federal government from owning land except for use by Post Offices and military bases?  "

Where does it say dat?

klc

When we moved in to the current location we purchased a new dishwasher, Frigidaire.  Basically it was a plastic POS from day one.  After six years of ownership and band-aiding the thing I blew a gasket last night when the plastic handle to open the door broke off. I got what I paid for suffice it to say.  I'm am so sick of plastic whatever. Until this country moves away from cheap plastic crap I will not buy anything made here.  Live and learn. Give me metal or give me death!

Actually, federal, state and local  governments own all the land in the country.  Your deed to your property is nothing more than a long-term lease. 

Your annual lease payments are called 'real estate tax'.  If you lease an apartment and fail to pay your rent, your landlord will have you evicted.  If you fail to pay your rent (property tax) to the government, the tax authorities will have you evicted and your property will be sold (re-leased) to the highest bidder.

Even if you keep up your payments to your landlord, he may decide that he no longer wants to use the property for rental purposes, so he may break the lease and have you evicted anyway in order to use the property for other purposes.

By the  same token, if the government so desires, they may break your lease and seize the property in order to use it for other purposes, like building roads, building schools, running power lines, building public parks, or (re-leasing) to Wal-of-ChinaMart or a big hotel chain.  The process is called eminent domain.

Absolutely right D. and I might add, an entire legal industry supports the property 'transfers' and condemnations.   ... not to mention all the national, state and local bureaus.

All this by the wonder of English Law, honed and handed down almost intact from fiefdom to fief.  The only difference is you are supposed to feel better about it in the 21st century than you did in the 12th.

All hail the King.
   Land 'grants.'
      and subsequent holders thereon.

Consider yourselves very lucky that the Lord's & overseer's take is only 40 to 50% on a yearly basis and as Don mentioned 100% long term.   Yeah, your heirs get to pay too; don't want to break any cycles here.

Even the Lord's weren't home free.  Everyonce in awhile they had to scarf up an army in service of the king. 

The kings changed but the system didn't ;  never has and never will.

Last year I bought a Bosch dishwasher from Lowe's on sale. It's solidly built, no plastic handles, extremely quiet and made in the USA (North Carolina, IIRC). Might be worth checking out.

1-year labor and parts warranty, 2-years parts, not labor, 5-years on the electronics and dish racks, lifetime warranty on the door and inner tub.

I drove my 93 ford ranger until 2007, had 190k miles on it.   I fixed it many times, frequently with home brew parts.(like the heater control resistor panel). The Frame on it was what killed it.  I had to weld up new bed mounts, and then a few other spots. Finally the cross member under the tranny was too thin to pass inspection.  (he called it 'very tender')  I had a plan to pull the cab and just go to town with some steel and the welder, but that's tough in February and I needed a vehicle quicker than I could do that large a job...

The thing was, that I COULD fix it.  Even though the frame seemed to be made of some crappy steel.

The body was fine, and it started up even on -15 degree mornings.  Two wheel drive, 4 cyl. good on gas, and hauled many an overweight load with out complaint.

I looked at newer used fords, but they all had the same fram problems begining. 
AND the newer trucks all look like mini-van inside now. Rugs, cup-holders, power windows, what a load of crap.  I want a truck I can wash out the inside with a hose too!! 
Anyway I went with a Chevy this time.  G-----mned computerized piece of junk. 

The only thing about it that I like are the ABS brakes. The work ok-fine. Once I figured out what that pulsing grinding noise was comming from the brake pedal!!!

Meanwhile, according to the Denver Post:


Xcel Energy estimates that it will shut off 47,000 Colorado customers for delinquent bills during the second and third quarters of this year, a staggering 140 percent increase over the same period in 2005, according to regulatory filings.

Electric and natural-gas bills for the coming winter are expected to be 25 percent higher than the previous year. Colorado is one of the few cold-weather states that don't have temperature-related restrictions on shutoffs.

Minneapolis-based Xcel is Colorado's largest electric and natural-gas utility, with 1.6 million customers.

Southern California Edison, which serves 4.8 million customers, disconnected 165,000 accounts from January to May, for an annualized rate of roughly 8 percent of its total customers.

Xcel's shutoff rate would represent about 6 percent of its customer base if its estimate holds true.

------------

This is not good.

High costs might spur rethinking of personal lifestyles.  Until now, we've had little incentive to cut back on a one-person, one-car lifestyle that's polluting, wasteful, congests traffic and spawns the growth of highways and parking garages.  When we stop behaving as if the Earth's resources are infinite and each of us has unlimited, autonomous access to them, we might also start living more consciously and purposefully. Maybe, in the larger scheme, we'll be motivated to return more to our original (some would say natural) tribal state of interdependence.

Maybe we'll see a growing sense of community connectedness (http://www.theleafchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080718/COLUMNISTS98/807180327/1091/OPINION)

Don, it's all driven by economics, not idealism. The wasteful lifestyle that you decry isn't going to change until it becomes too expensive to maintain.

As gung ho as the country was, even during WWII voluntary cutbacks in civilian consumption didn't succeed, they had to impose rationing of critical items. Think about it.

In a way, you should support drilling in currently prohibited areas with the goal that we should use up all of our fossil fuel resources as fast as we can. Only then will there be a serious effort to switch to renewable and nuclear energy.

The woman who wrote this, Rehka Basu, is your typical left leaning, obama supporting, newspaper columnist who once opined that a 300 billion dollar taxpayer funded wind farm was the way to go.

These "alternative energy" advocates slay me. They want to stop all production of the lowest cost most proven forms of energy and replace them with unproven taxpayer funded boondoggles. Ever notice how all of their "solutions" involve A)more government control of our lives and/or B) taking, by force, more of our money to fund their "solutions". Hell, if their "solutions" were any damn good, the marketplace would have already adopted them. Did Edison, Bell & the Wright brothers need our tax dollars to make their inventions marketable?

Their "solutions" are UNPROVEN!

Reminds me of this math student trying to BS his prof.

 

The Wright brothers needed the U.S. Army to buy their first planes.

That's what is in the process of happening now.  The current price spike may come down a little, particularly as consumption falls off, but we'll never see "cheap" energy again, unless practical fusion technology is developed and implemented...  and that effort isn't even apparently on the radar screen any longer.

Ross Perot may be kind of a likeable nutcase, but his charts (http://perotcharts.com/) are pretty convincing that the present economy based on waste and exponential growth for ever, is unsustainable.

T. Boone:  Substitute gas for gas.  That's what he said to Congress yesterday.

I had somehow missed his point before: Stop burning natural gas to make electricity. Use it for transportation. He wants to make electricity from wind and solar to free up the natural gas.

I wonder if he's on to something. I see big CNG vehicles all the time -- buses, garbage trucks, the occasional car.  It's got to be easier to get there than to the Hydrogen Economy

Here's a snippet of his Congressional testimony on USA Today site.  You have to sit through a damned commercial. 

http://tinyurl.com/6chpgu

There's an entertaining video on his website.   Didn't look at it until just now.

http://www.pickensplan.com/

Any of you guys driving CNG vehicles? 

 

All the buses in the public transportation system here use CNG: http://www.catabus.com/.  They don't stink like the buses in Philly did, at least when I used to live there.  They are working on some sort of Hydrogen/CNG technology.

me too. (haha a mee too post) The "consumer" is the one entity directly responsible for producing the cash flow that keeps the importers and the wheels of industry alive. I refuse to consume except the bare minimum to achieve a reasonable level of comfort and utility. I detest the actions of those who run like a herd of gobbling turkeys to buy all the cheap crap they see on TV or in their friends' house. One of the salespeople at work was bragging about his 50" plasma TV, until one of the marketing guys started bragging about his new 60". Neither made in USA. Those same people by and large will run up bills they can never pay and the load of their defaults when some day there is nothing left to sell will up on our backs. I needed a set of 1/2" sockets today and I could not find any USA made tools in the auto parts store.

And those big screen plasma TV monitors consume more energy than a plate modulated AM kilowatt transmitter.

I suppose they become more efficient in winter, as the waste heat warms the house and the thermostat trips a little less often.

Here's an article from my morning paper (orig fr Bloomberg) regarding the speculators. While I don't think it'll ever drop back down to $80/bbl, I've always said it was the futures traders that are killing this country with they're greed.

I think the p'ticians are dreaming if they think they can regulate they're way thru everything.

http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2008/07/24/business/355576.txt

First Commercial-Scale Cellulosic Ethanol Plant Approved for California
Company’s First U.S. Cellulosic Ethanol Plant to Border Lancaster, CA Landfill

http://tinyurl.com/623gsj

They say 3.2M gallons of ethanol/year from garbage starting at the end of next year.  It will be interesting to see if this works.

can booze be made from garbage? That would be a good solution. stay home and drink.

Well, innovation being what it is relative to today's Tech, I am still a little amiss at the chemistry side of the issue here, I still think there's a synthetic side to this and I'm wondering where it's at, or why it isn't released.

I'm not so interested in running Alcohol in my Ranger.

Nonsense!

"Greed", or more correctly economic self interest, is crucial to the success of our economy. It forms the basis for competition which, as Adam Smith pointed out in the classic Wealth of Nations, is the "invisible hand" that keeps prices low and quality high.

You, me, everyone wants the most bang for our buck. Is that "greed" or smart economic self interest.

And as to speculators, we are all speculators. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we are wrong.

Furthermore, if oil speculators are so evil, please explain the $25/barrel drop in price in the last 2 weeks.

I guess we can call this getting "trashed?"

By the way, the definition of greed from Mirriam-Webster:

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed


I was also thinking of how much current my rig consumes. With a 1kw I would estimate 1500 watts or so. Ever drive by those gas stations all lit up at night? Or those empty parking lots at the mall, at the strip mall, at churches, all lit up, all night, every night. Wonder how much power they use?

I think my power footprint is very small in relation.

I'll go you one further:

You guys are, for the most part, old buzzards, right? (Hint: the answer is "yes, we are").

Those of you who are already old buzzards, and those creeping up on buzzardom, have retirement plans, right?

Do you manage those plans yourselves, or is someone else taking care of that for you?

For those in the latter situation, did you notice that very slight increase in the value of your retirement plans over the last few months? Probably not, because most of you are probably too busy pissing and moaning about how everyone but you is screwing up the country to pay attention to these things.

How did this happen? Simple: the guys managing your retirement funds turn to the mercantile exchange when the stock market slows down. Gains on stocks were slow, but oil was trending upwards, so they did exactly what you are paying them to do, they made money for you by investing your retirement money in oil futures.

I tried to get people to think about this a few weeks ago, but the overwhelming consensus was that I was "defending the oil pigs", as Frank would say. Forest for the trees.

Everyone with a retirement plan has speculators working for them. This means most of you on this board, and almost all of you in on this thread. So be sure to turn to your left and thank a baby-boomer (a.k.a. "the whiniest, most self-entitled generation ever spawned by mankind"), or anyone else who expects their retirement money to grow and be there for them. Everybody are the speculators, and everybody are the "oil pigs".

Or, as Dire Straits put it:

"When you point your finger,
your plan fell through,
you've got three more fingers
pointing back at you"

The surge is over, the speculators made all the money for you they can on oil. They passed the point of diminishing returns when the demand started to drop, and they're all heading for the exits now. Gas prices are falling again, the sky is not.

Time for the next pseudo-crisis.

--Thom
King Abraham One Zebraham George Charlie

Guzzlers like Hummers seem to irritate some folks.
I just came across this Hummer-Hater site- LOL!
(If you are easily offended, do not visit)

http://www.fuh2.com/

Self fullfilling quest just by writing this, but....

"This thread's still alive?"

Gas is going down, however slightly now.  

Maybe we'll even get to the point of fullfilling Steve's poignant point (SPP) theory...
"you guys bitch on the way up and you guys bitch on the way down." ;D

I hope so; my car's a rustin' and my mowers's a' bustin' to clip some grass.

More gas from garbage.  I don't know about you but I'm going to start saving all my garbage so I can run my car on it. 

Fulcrum Bioenergy Announces Plans to Build One of the First Commercial Scale Ethanol Plants Using Municipal Waste  (Reno)

http://tinyurl.com/59bf5t

High tech but demonstration scale only (Madison, Ill):

Plant to turn waste into ethanol
Friday, April 25, 2008
By Elwin Green, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08116/876330-28.stm

I seen that hummer site.. Yesterday there was a drive by shooting of a H2 at night when it was parked. The perp was drving what looked like a volvo wagon.  I don't condone that but It's very funny that they are being given the bird.. although I don't feel that way, I try to find humor in things. The only hummer I will ever respect as a vehicle is the H1 and the more spartan but genuine HMMWV.

The city of Dallas landfill is full of pipes and they collect the noxious gasses and make some kind of propane or methane from it onsite with a small plant, and it helps a litte bit to fuel the city vehicles.

 >:(

You think it's funny when someone shoots holes in someone else's property (probably not knowing or caring whether someone is in it or not) because they don't approve of the brand they buy, and justify that because you don't either?

Shame on you.

No, a shooting as with a camera.

No holes involved.

Boy, talk about a failure to communicate.

Any English teach... would love to use that one as an example.

I do it all the time. I'm writing what I think not realizing there might be two very different interpretations.

Naaa,

What we have heereya is failure...To gasolate...LOL ;D

and.... as the French did in WWII with their CO, woodburning lash-ups tacked on to the back of their jalopies,
".... a failure to flatulate."


"Radio here OM is wood driven."
uh, sorry.

Are you guys finished now?

Most people, when faced with a description of a "drive by shooting" by a "perp" (with absolutely no other information to go by) would infer the same thing, particularly with Hummer-bombing being a popular and heavily encouraged enviro-whacko pastime.

I wonder how many of the truths to which you guys cling were derived the same way?

I think they should all be shot up just like Bonnie and Clyde's car.  Better still, search the net and learn how to make Molotov Cocktails.  That would be just as effective and a lot cheaper, even at to-day's gas prices.

And while we are at it, why stop at hummers?  Onward to obnoxious slopbucketeers!  Using Google Earth, it is easy to pinpoint the exact locations of towers and antennas.  A good pair of bolt cutters will work wonders on a guyed tower.  A hacksaw is effective on a self-supported tower.  A little gasoline and a match will take care of wooden poles.  For stubborn cases, there is always ammonium nitrate fertiliser mixed with diesel fuel.

After the slopbucketeers, CB'ers would be a breeze.  We'll have 'em shaking in their boots.

I would add commercial TV broadcast towers but since nearly everyone receives their garbage via cable or satellite these days, it wouldn't be worth the trouble and risk involved...

Let's rid the planet of the riff-raff once and for all!