Gasoline Madness;When to Stop

[W8EJO]

But is the problem large cars or small cars?  This is like arguing about whether your beer glass is half empty or half full.  If the majority of vehicles are massive, then a collision is likely to be more devastating if you drive a smaller car.  But if the majority cars are smaller and lighter in weight, then this becomes a non-issue because there is no reason why collisions between two compact cars would cause any more (or any fewer) fatalities than collisions between two heavy cars. 

The problem with this logic is that:
A) Over 50% of injuries & fatalities are from SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. No big car vs little car.

B) The solution to your hypothesized problem is the heavy hand of government - taking away one's freedom to be safer in their vehicle of choice. You would have to outlaw all vehicles over a certain mass so that everyone would be equally vulnerable in their little cars. Trucks make up a large percentage of vehicles on the road. Would you outlaw them also?

No, the answer to problems is almost NEVER more government control of the citizens but LESS government control. The current energy issues are no different. Free up nuclear plant licensing, offshore & ANWAR oil drilling, refinery building, clean coal usage, etc.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Let me pick on Bill HG for a minute. He has a big truck and a small car. That car should be for personal transportation. All expenses on the truck should be written off on taxes as business expenses including 20% of the value of the truck each year for 5 years until its fully depreciated. Maybe Bill will say he doesn't have a business. So start one. Mowing lawns, putting in fences, rotor tilling, landscaping, maybe driving to rich peoples houses and changing their oil for them(hey, driving to and then hanging around waiting to get it done is a PIA), anything as long as you need the truck to do it.

Sheesh, Marty...I ride the mower and do my own lawns strictly for mental therapy..LOL...Fencing? That's w-a-a-y too much like work, but I'm pretty good at it.

I do stick with what I know, and that is to do broadcast engineering on a contract basis for several area stations. Fifty cents a mile for travel expenses, as you know. The truck is an '02, so it's all paid off and depreciated.

I have been thinking of getting a used road grader at auction...There's a lot of private roads in this area that need maintenance and snow plowing. There also seems to be opportunity in small engine repair, mowers, generators, rototillers..Waiting a few years until closer to retirement from the day job, there's already too much on my plate. I haven't taken a real vacation without a pager or cell phone for 15 years, and that's taking a toll. Nevertheless, Marty makes a good point, there's usually an angle we can exploit to our benefit.

(Now I'm thinking about Jackie Gleason's business misadventures in the Honeymooners...Dog food appetizer was a classic...)


-b

[W3RSW]

Yep, we're all working for the IRS.  You chief overseer and master auditor.  So look at all the energy expended finding work-arounds, practices in compliance and such all in total subservience to IRS accounting rules.   um, hmmm.

Guess that "when in Rome..."
Have to do what we have to do.

Have a couple of businesses out of this house. (hey, put your wife to work too, more "savings.")    Oh she is already?  Doing the books?

The coin of exchange basis between control and subservience is taxation.

How's that for bitch by mantra?
   But that's the country and world we live in... always has been, always will.

Unit quantity of subservience ($/slave) =Top dog take (single individual or "enlightened," superior clique) / number of all the rest of us.

[W1ATR]

Fr Marty:

"So start one. Mowing lawns, putting in fences, rotor tilling, landscaping,"

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lol, yeah the hell with all that noise. That's too much like manual labor.

This is what the Mexican's standing outside Home Depot are there for.

Actually, they don't stand outside the HD around here anymore. They put up a 10,000sq. ft. metal building dispatch center across the street from HD.

It works like a drive-thru. You drive in one end of the building, place your order, "Yeah, I'd like a #3 roofing, and ahhh,, I'll also have a #6 concrete and sidewalks."

Hola señor, you pull to dee front and we take care of yooo.

In the background; UNDELAY UNDELAY MUCHACHOS!! Get in the dee truck.
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That's pretty much about how it goes. You pull out and go get your work done.

73

[W8EJO]

There is only one bogeyman in the oil & gas market & it is not the "greedy" oil company or the "wasteful" American consumer. The one and only bogeyman is the RADICAL ENVIROMENTALIST. The leaders of thesese groups (Greenpeace, Enviromental Defense, Audubon Society, et al) are  hard core.

Don't like to quote myself but here is another bit of evidence in support of the above:
Environmental Group Sues to Block Oil Refinery Expansion
Thursday, July 10, 2008
http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080709a.asp

They are so proud of themselves.

[Bill, KD0HG]

There is only one bogeyman in the oil & gas market & it is not the "greedy" oil company or the "wasteful" American consumer. The one and only bogeyman is the RADICAL ENVIROMENTALIST. The leaders of thesese groups (Greenpeace, Enviromental Defense, Audubon Society, et al) are  hard core.

Don't like to quote myself but here is another bit of evidence in support of the above:
Environmental Group Sues to Block Oil Refinery Expansion
Thursday, July 10, 2008
http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080709a.asp

They are so proud of themselves.

Terry, the last time I drove by that area on I-90 around four years ago on the way to Cleveland, the aroma from that refinery had us gagging in the car for five miles. It was awful. I couldn't believe it. The highway railings in the area were grossly corroded, too. They might just have a legitimate complaint. Or maybe not. The refineries around here don't bother me at all and never have.

[K6JEK]

There is only one bogeyman in the oil & gas market & it is not the "greedy" oil company or the "wasteful" American consumer. The one and only bogeyman is the RADICAL ENVIROMENTALIST. The leaders of thesese groups (Greenpeace, Enviromental Defense, Audubon Society, et al) are  hard core.

Don't like to quote myself but here is another bit of evidence in support of the above:
Environmental Group Sues to Block Oil Refinery Expansion
Thursday, July 10, 2008
http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080709a.asp

They are so proud of themselves.

I'm not sure but I might be with the wacko radical environmenalist commies on this one.   I followed your link.  If I read it right, the suit is about requiring air pollution equipment on the refinery like they have elsewhere in the country like out here.  What's wrong with that?

"Environmental groups have pointed to flare controls in California refineries where emissions have been greatly reduced with, among other things, redundant equipment and responsible operating practices. The Clean Air Act requires the use of “best available control technology” on expansion projects of this scale.
 
“The law entitles residents of Gary, Hammond, Whiting, and the rest of Northwest Indiana to the same protections as those enjoyed elsewhere in the U.S. The law says that a refinery on the shores of Lake Michigan should have the same control over its pollution as a refinery in California,” said Alexander. “In the ConocoPhillips case, the environmental review board at US EPA sent a message to oil refineries around the nation that it is time they clean up. We believe that the federal courts will support that precedent.”

[NE4AM]

>>>Are the best performers the biggest and heaviest vehicles on the road? Not at all.  Among the safest cars are the midsize imports, like the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord.   Or consider the extraordinary performance of some subcompacts, like the Volkswagen Jetta.   Drivers of the tiny Jetta die at a rate of just forty-seven per million, which is in the same range as drivers of the five-thousand-pound Chevrolet Suburban and almost half that of popular S.U.V. models like the Ford Explorer or the GMC Jimmy.   In a head-on crash, an Explorer or a Suburban would crush a Jetta or a Camry.<<<

Let us not just consider the inherent safety of the vehicle, but also the demographic of the typical driver of that vehicle...  The worst accident I ever witnessed was when a mom in a Land Rover, distracted on a cell phone call, crossed the median and collided head on with a semi - her car was ripped into 3 pieces, she was killed instantly, but her 2 kids strapped in the back survived.  There were kid toys and clothes strewn everywhere.  I saw the first responders sobbing at the scene, it was that horrible.  Get these moran yuppies to hang up their precious cell phones, and we'd all be safer.

Also, recall when the Ford Explorer was implicated in being in so many roll-over fatalities?  Actually the Lincoln Town Car has a much higher rate of roll-overs.  Not that it is a more dangerous car, on the contrary - it is all the elderly folks (God Bless 'Em!)  who chose this car to drive.

[K3ZS]

Worst and most gruesome accident I ever saw was many years ago.   A rather slow head-on collision between a 1960 Pontiac Bonneville and a tiny Isetta, a very small car with the door on the front.    The guy in the Isetta was crushed and killed, the Bonneville had a slight dent in the front bumper.

Seems like everyone is trying to find blame for the gas prices.    If our  money had not declined in value, gas would be around $2.   Without getting political you can draw your own conclusions why our currency has declined.    Investors are putting their money in hard assets to maintain their net worth such as oil, gold, etc.

[K6JEK]

Andy Grove (Intel founder) comes out for the electric car. I wonder what he drives. I also wonder what this publication is. Subscribe and get a free book by Newt.

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-contents/our-electric-future

PS This did not display correctly with FireFox 3.0.  I had to use something else to read it.

[k4kyv]

Couldn't agree more. Nothing like someone with a huge inefficient AM transmitter in their basement that takes up 12 kcs. on the band lecturing others that they should change what they drive to save energy. Can't beat that for entertainment.

I'm surprised someone  hasn't already petitioned the FCC to outlaw AM to "save energy".  About every other bogus excuse has been tried as justification to do that.

Of course, that would be at best "feel good" legislation.  What percentage would this reduce overall US energy consumption, maybe 0.0000001%?  Like that ridiculous legislation that extended Daylight Shifting Time nonsense to begin in late winter, which predictably had little effect on energy consumption, but what effect it actually had was reported to be a slight increase as people turned on lights earlier in the winter morning and thermostats were turned up for an extra hour during pre-dawn, the coldest part of the day.

And the significant falloff in amateur radio activity in the last decade or so, combined with the phone band expansion, makes "12 kHz wide" signals as bogus an issue as the energy consumed to generate carriers.

B) The solution to your hypothesized problem is the heavy hand of government - taking away one's freedom to be safer in their vehicle of choice. You would have to outlaw all vehicles over a certain mass so that everyone would be equally vulnerable in their little cars.

Who has proposed to outlaw heavy cars?  The on again/off again attempts at legislation would mandate fuel efficiency, not vehicle size. If someone can build a heavy SUV that gets 75 mpg, more power to them. Market forces is what will kill off the N. American gas/road hogs. As the cost of fuel (along with everything else) continues to rise while the dollarette continues to lose purchasing power, people will simply quit buying monstrous vehicles for commuting to the office and back every day, and find other status symbols .  SUV sales have already hit rock bottom, and the motor industry would be hard pressed to deplete its unsold inventory even if they offered to give the things away.

Trucks make up a large percentage of vehicles on the road. Would you outlaw them also?

With the cost of diesel running at close to $5/gallon, far more efficient rail transport for long distance hauling is looking more and more attractive.  Actually, I would love to not have the share the road with tractor-trailer rigs and a few of the arrogant SOB's who drive them.

The trucking industry is an example of socialism at its worst.  The rail industry had to purchase their own right-of-way and build and maintain their own tracks, while government tax money built the interstate highway system to heavy trucking standards, allowing that industry to kill the railways.  The trucking industry is heavily subsidised with government-built roads, with road taxes imposed at a rate that amounts to a fraction of the real cost to the public resulting from road wear-out and loss of life and property due to tractor trailer accidents.

With the current price of diesel, I have heard numerous stories of independent truckers who have about decided to throw in the sponge.  It is costing them about everything they make off hauling goods just to fill the fuel tanks.

It's a great pity that the N. American rail system was allowed to deteriorate and fall apart, and that our rail infrastructure was dismantled and right-of-way sold for other development, forcing the US and Canada to remain dependent on highly inefficient long-distance trucking to move goods, regardless of its cost.  Transport cost is one of the major factors in why everything we have to buy to-day is rising in price.

[K3ZS]

Our rail system was built on government subsidies and land give-aways in the late 19th century also.    Once they were paid for they should have been maintained rather than subsidizing the trucking industry.     Not all railroad properties have been developed.    Many were given or purchased for the rails-to-trails movement.   The right-of-ways are still there and in some cases are being bought back for railroads.

[W8EJO]

Had the enviros been around 100 years ago we'd all be walking on dirt roads now and scrounging for root vegetables. There would be no Texas oil fields, no refineries anywhere, no coal fired plants, no nuke plants - nothing.

We are literally watching the slow death of our country unfold before us.  GM, Ford their suppliers and service companies are laying off hundreds of thousands of employees with the resulting ripple effect throughout the society. What we don't see are the tens of thousands of jobs not created due to enviro restrictions on nuke plants, refineries, drilling equipment, oil jobs, coal jobs, etc.

We are a society that runs on energy - end of story. By artificially killing the growth of our energy sources the enviros are killing our society (I believe this is the real goal of the hard core leaders, their actions could have no other meaning) and posing a serious national security risk as we rely on unfriendly nations for the lifeblood of our economy.

I urge everyone to call/write their representatives today & urge them to tell the enviros to go to hell.

[k4kyv]

From another internet forum:

I just got back from trading in a Dodge Durango for a Toyota Camry. The salesman told me that they had a meeting this morning about trucks and SUV's and very soon dealers WILL NOT take them in on trade. This makes sense. If you notice most all dealers are overrun with the two and nobody wants them. So if you were thinking of getting rid of the gas hog, now might be the time to do it and don't expect much for the trade. And when you do trade, expect to refer to step number 21 on the nuclear attack list. You remember, BEND OVER AND KISS YOUR SWEET @$$ GOODBYE. I hated to trade it in because it was in as good of shape as it was in 1998 (never missed a lick). A TIMEX watch I tell you. But going from 14MPG to 30MPG, kinda makes you fuzzy inside.

Whole thread


But just as I said earlier, if you are stuck with a behemoth, you are probably better off keeping it than trying to sell or trade it.

Trading in gas guzzler may cost you

[Bill, KD0HG]

There's a whole bunch of SUVs around here parked in lots and in driveways close to the street with For Sale signs on them. Some very nice boats, too. Seems a lot of folks are getting desperate, newspaper and online ads aren't working. Is that local to here or is it noticeable elsewhere?

What America needs is a new financial bubble to invest in. Yeah.

[K3ZS]

Got my PA property tax rebate of $111.    The school board increased the tax rate so that it still is higher this year.

On the oil drilling, if the US produces 2% of the worlds oil, and it's a global market, seems to me it won't mean diddley-squat on prices when new wells eventually are drilled.    Making new nuclear power plants, building better hybrid  car batteries and plug-in hybrids cars will lower oil prices.

[Bill, KD0HG]

I think that it would better sell the proposed offshore and arctic drilling if the President or economic advisers  would tell us how much effect this might have on oil prices and availability. Will these new sources of American petro reduce prices by 1%, 10% or what?  Surely they can hazard an educated guess based on certain assumptions.

And what is the objection to offshore drilling? I don't care about 'aesthetics', we already already have rigs off much of the coasts, and there's thousands of rigs all over the place around here, and no one seems to complain.

Give it to us straight, for cryin' out loud. I'm getting tired of the BS on both sides of the issue.

[k4kyv]

Even if they could magically drill all the wells and get them up and going to-morrow, how many years of oil supply would we get? I'd say less than one generation, then we will be back where we are again.

I recall back in the 70's during the first oil panic.  North Sea oil was supposed to be a godsend, but now it's running dry.  And all that other oil that's supposed to be waiting to be drilled and pumped out is a temporary solution at best.

Besides, what about all those oil leases that are reportedly sitting idle now?

One of the very few sensible pieces of proposed energy legislation I have heard of recently is "use it or lose it".  It would cancel oil leases that are not exploited within a certain time limit and open them up for re-bidding.

[Bill, KD0HG]

If we can drill our way into energy independence, we need to look at that. If we can't, then we need to look at that as well, Don.

Besides, if we simply burn up all of our petroleum, what are the alternatives for its other necessary uses like making plastics, pharmaceuticals, chemicals or synthetic rubber? You need natural gas to make the necessary fertilizer for modern agriculture. No natural gas, no food. Our modern society can't exist without these products.

[K6JEK]

I think that it would better sell the proposed offshore and arctic drilling if the President or economic advisers  would tell us how much effect this might have on oil prices and availability. Will these new sources of American petro reduce prices by 1%, 10% or what?  Surely they can hazard an educated guess based on certain assumptions.
...

I know there is a US Energy Information Agency analysis of ANWR put out this year. It predicts a decrease in the cost per barrel between .41 and $1.41 starting in about ten years and peaking in twenty.  Here's a US News article about it.  I haven't tracked down a link to the actual report:

http://tinyurl.com/444wpj

I don't know of such a report for additional offshore. 

I don't think these things are linear.  I believe that two ANWR's would have more effect that 2 x 1.41.  I guess at this point we need a serious economist.

[W8EJO]

If we can drill our way into energy independence, we need to look at that. If we can't, then we need to look at that as well, Don.

Besides, if we simply burn up all of our petroleum, what are the alternatives for its other necessary uses like making plastics, pharmaceuticals, chemicals or synthetic rubber? You need natural gas to make the necessary fertilizer for modern agriculture. No natural gas, no food. Our modern society can't exist without these products.

There is aprox. 200 billion barrels of known reserves in the US a huge chunk of which are in no drill zones both on land & off shore. Remember that they keep discovering new oil fields all the time so this number will grow (According the Energy Information Administration as of January 2007 there was more than 1.3 trillion barrels of proved crude oil on earth. In 1944 the quantity stood at 20 billion. In 1950 it leaped to 100 billion and in 1980 it was 648 billion. In 1993 the world’s proved reserves grew to 999 billion, and today they stand at 1.3 trillion barrels. There are several reasons for this. New exploration and advancements in surveying techniques in particular result in fresh finds almost every year). This does not include the over 1 trillion barrels in the western oil shale that they will soon figure out how to recover economically and safely (Royal Dutch Shell is working on that now).
We import about 4.7 billion barrels annually so our known oil reserves would give us about 43 years of supply. However our oil use is declining & will decline even more if we bring nuclear plants online & employ clean coal & convert to natural gas where possible.

Speaking of natural gas, the numbers are even more staggering for no touch gas.   

[W8EJO]

One of the very few sensible pieces of proposed energy legislation I have heard of recently is "use it or lose it".  It would cancel oil leases that are not exploited within a certain time limit and open them up for re-bidding.

Oil companies spent billions of dollars for those leases in good faith, they are legal & binding and you'd "cancel" them. That is dangerous thinking!

Here's a few facts that will hopefully change your mind from Investors Business Daily July 3, 2008:
"Drilling has increased by more than 66% since 2000 (on those leases). They are searching for oil even as you read this. Some parts of those 68 million acres will have oil, some won't. But at $145 a barrel, you can bet oil companies have plenty of incentive to find it. That said, 68 million acres is in fact a minuscule amount. Some 94% of federal lands — 658 million acres — remains off-limits to exploration. Another 97% — or 1.7 billion acres — of federal offshore properties likewise remains off-limits. These lands contain tens of billions of barrels of recoverable oil. It's there for the taking, now.

How much energy is there? Federal lands, according to the American Petroleum Institute, hold 651 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, enough to fuel 60 million households for 160 years. They hold at least 116 billion barrels of oil, maybe more. That's enough to fuel 65 million cars and provide fuel oil for 3.2 million homes for 60 years.

[ka3zlr]

I also liked the tid bit on Container Transport, Cost effectiveness wise, what it did cost for sea transport as opposed to what it cost Now...has increased almost three times...per unit...very close to three times and will reflect what increases that do come to pass,...

Subsequent reversal of overseas commodity trading...of sorts...Bring back the work...it's gud for the country...let it all go up...

 

[Opcom]

It's always amazed me that we can buy silicon wafers from Asia, ship them to Europe or the USA, make chips, ship the chips to malaysia or wherever for packaging (put the die chip in the black package with leads) and then ship them globally to customers, doing all of this on time, and still turn profits.

I'd like to see it all done here as it was at one time. Nobody suffered because of that.

Personally, if a regular TV set cost $1200 and a video recorder $900, it would not bother me a bit, if they were made in the USA by Americans. This wouldn't cheat the poor (liberals might shriek), those with less money would, as they did before, have the old TV set fixed, and buy used TV's. My father bought used TV sets. We usually fixed the TV ourselves (others might have taken them to TV repair shops). I have always bought used TV sets and all other major appliances and there is no shame in that. Unfortunately you can't get rebuilt picture tubes any more so when these go, that's it.

Most people here are spoiled and selfish, wanting everything for little or nothing, and they suckle at the sticky-sweet teat of cheap products from faraway lands where labor is worth little and life is worth less. A friend of mine used to brag about how much of his stuff was made by slave labor in China. Bring it all back is exactly right!

[W1ATR]

Most people here are spoiled and selfish, wanting everything for little or nothing, and they suckle at the sticky-sweet teat of cheap products from faraway lands where labor is worth little and life is worth less. A friend of mine used to brag about how much of his stuff was made by slave labor in China. Bring it all back is exactly right!

This is the very ugly truth. Unfortunately, big chains like wally world and the sort keep popping up stuffed full of products poorly made oversea's, and all the mindless sheep run right in and give up they're dollars. There's never going to be an end to it. Bring products back to American manufacture; never going to happen. As long as the weak minded population refuses to learn how to fend for themselves, this country will continue on it's downward spiral into oblivion.