Gasoline Madness;When to Stop

[ka3zlr]

Yea, and i like how I'm reading that gas stations want to go back to cash base exchange....there's a charge for transactions using Electronic exchange...awesum..first they want us to use direct deposit, then they want to charge us to use direct deposit..then  ...what a country....LOL...


There's word on the news Transportation workers in Britain are on the verge of some sort of stoppage...It's amazing how so much is stressed on transportation of goods and services and how so much is stressed in putting it out of business...

There's a serious Conflict in Logic here somewhere...

[WA1GFZ]

Don,
You would thing we would get a little free gas out of the deal...oh I forgot we are but the money goes to the oil pigs

[W3RSW]

and...
"look what our fine oil pig controlled leaders did with solar leases on public land"
- ad nauseum for your last three posts with absolutely no variation on a 'stuck record' theme.

Pity.

Frank, it appears the discussion is swirling around you.  Your soto voco one liners are very apparently being ignored. 

This board has probably the best, all inclusive discussion of energy needs, barriers and potential solutions of just about all sites I've seen.   It ought too; we as a group have educations and experience ranging from PHD's to the very justly earned school of hard knocks.  Many of us have worked in various energy sectors; one of my specialties was once electronic/nuclear underground logging. In order to be taken seriously you need to peruse some of our points a little more reflectively.  I and many here will debate sound policy, but not pig headedness. Right or wrong we soldier on.   The guys are just being polite. I for one have learned a lot from you and have respected your views on many radio and other topics but I think you need to open up a bit on this on this one.

I posit that you are the big oil pig.  I suggest that you quit driving your car, quit heating and A/c'ing your home, quit buying all plastic products, drinking from any oil derived container including waxed cartons and milk containers.  Oh and quit showering with hot water ... on and on.  In this world, everything has been based on hydrocarbons including your own body for a very long, long time.

Perhaps you've been burned by a corporation. If so, hey, we might be with you.  If not and given that you understand business then what?

Turn off you rigs, your power, your heat and water, quit all transportation other than your own two feet including goods to your house and market and let us know about your quality of life in a couple of months... no wait, make that hours.

Perhaps your all for oil if it's publicy owned and regulated?  Then what would you tax? Yourself? And if you are for state owned oil, I can't say it enough.... go read and reread "Animal Farm."
Well I digressed.  My real intent is to get you back into active discussion.

signed,
a concerned friend.

[Mike/W8BAC]

From Bill/KD0HG

As far as you know, do the Alberta tar sands have a similar sulfur issue?

I don't have any first hand information on this. I can only parrot some news I've herd lately.

The oil sands project appears to be a success and the Canadians used some creative thinking to make it happen.

The Canadian oil companies worked for a long time to figure out how to mine the sand and extract the oil. It just didn't work. Like the shale, the sand, per ton, gave little return and mining it cost a fortune and made a mess.

Some engineers figured out (Like Frank/GFZ said) If they could heat it and lift it, they might be able to pump the oil. But that would take a huge amount of energy.

The brilliant part was placing other industry nearby that wasted heat in production of other products. I think they started with an aluminum recycling/smelting plant. By injecting steam and hot water produced form waist heat the oil freed up and the water lifted the crude into pools. The process is in full commercial swing now and I hear it is a success. I'm no engineer but I think it would be a much tougher nut to crack extracting the shale oils but engineers do some brilliant things.

As for sulfur and H2S content in the oil sands I have no clue however it is known that injecting water containing bacteria underground to lift oil can sour the oil (add to the amount of H2S). Ask the Norwegians. The first deep sea oil project off Norway's coast had a problem with sea floor subsidence. As they pumped they're light sweet crude they realized the 8 platform complex was sinking. The chalk sub straight that held the oil was compressing fast. Injecting sea water to replace, and help lift, the oil stabilized the subsidence. Unfortunately the bacteria in the sea water soured the oil and made refining more costly. Adding a process to irradiate the injected water slowed the H2S problem. OH, the platform complex sank 18 feet before the fix took hold and a massive 18 foot jack up project had to be done to save it. Eight platforms lifted at once and 18 foot sea leg extensions added. The cost was very high but the fix was a success.

High contents of sulfur and H2S in oil isn't necessary a bad thing it just makes handling and refining more costly and hazardous. Sulfur and water makes acid, not good for machinery or people. H2S (hydrogen sulphide) is common to oil production and is rendered harmless when the sulfur is extracted. However in gas form one breath will shut down your body's ability to absorb oxygen. Negative outcome.

An interesting note from history. Early settlers in the oil shale regions found the flat shale made great building foundations. Kind of stinky but what the heck. Foundations and fireplaces  Not long later they figured out stone foundations and chimneys can BURN? Negative Outcome.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Thanks again, Mike.

There *is* plenty of petroleum but it's harder to get and going to be expensive.

Two or three years back, Suncor, a Canadian company, bought the big refinery in Denver from Conoco. They later bought the other refinery from Valero. The feedstock is petro from the Canadian deposits, it's pretty much a straight shot from Alberta to Denver, minimizing transportation costs. They're processing about 100,000 barrels a day of Canadian oil sand crude in town now, about half the area gasoline supply. As you say, engineers can do some rather amazing stuff and 21st Century oil prices are quite a motivator.

[WA1GFZ]

Gee sorry Rick, Maybe I should go drill a hole in the sugar maple in the back yard and keep to myself.

[KA1ZGC]

And when did the West Coast ask for the rest of the country to bail it out?

The rolling blackouts you were having a couple of years ago.

So why is the oil contracts in Iraq going on the open market when we just spent a fortune liberating their sorry lazy butts. I think we should be getting paid for all this protection in the middle east. WTF

Well gee, Frank... doesn't that kinda blow a hole in your tired "oil pig" mantra? Time to nudge the stylus.

[W3RSW]

Yeah Frank,
I came on a little strong.
We're lucky to have back yards with sugar maples.

But I bet you have to use a foundry forged hammer and galvanized, rolled steel spout to tap 'em.  Lots of taken for granted energy  there.

I'll give you the wood handle if it isn't polycarbonate.

I really admire you and a lot of your thoughts on other matters (hope the obsequious (sp?) genuflection isn't too obvious or patronizing); I just know you can make points better than by mantra.

[W1ATR]

Gee sorry Rick, Maybe I should go drill a hole in the sugar maple in the back yard and keep to myself.

lol, don't do that Frank. Maybe in NJ that was OK, but around here, if Jody catches wind, there will be a special usage tax added to drill bits. Atty Richie B will probably sue you for using your back yard for something other than a back yard.

[K6JEK]

And when did the West Coast ask for the rest of the country to bail it out?

The rolling blackouts you were having a couple of years ago.

Help like that we can do without:

"The California electricity crisis (also known as the Western Energy Crisis) of 2000 and 2001 resulted from the gaming of a partially deregulated California energy system by energy companies such as Enron and Reliant Energy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Yea, just like we got all those Mercedes Benz at below market rate from Germany for liberating there sorry lazy butts...... Oh wait. That never happened. Never mind.

So why is the oil contracts in Iraq going on the open market when we just spent a fortune liberating their sorry lazy butts. I think we should be getting paid for all this protection in the middle east. WTF

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

He he. As if Wikipedia is an authorative source in this. Too funnny.

And when did the West Coast ask for the rest of the country to bail it out?

The rolling blackouts you were having a couple of years ago.

Help like that we can do without:

"The California electricity crisis (also known as the Western Energy Crisis) of 2000 and 2001 resulted from the gaming of a partially deregulated California energy system by energy companies such as Enron and Reliant Energy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

[K6JEK]

He he. As if Wikipedia is an authorative source in this. Too funnny.

And when did the West Coast ask for the rest of the country to bail it out?  Not that we won't.   When the big one comes, we'll be asking for all the help we can get wherever we can get it.

The rolling blackouts you were having a couple of years ago.

Help like that we can do without:

"The California electricity crisis (also known as the Western Energy Crisis) of 2000 and 2001 resulted from the gaming of a partially deregulated California energy system by energy companies such as Enron and Reliant Energy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

Read the article.  It's pretty thorough.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Thorough and correct are two different things.

[K6JEK]

Thorough and correct are two different things.

It's Wikipedia.   If you have better information, you're invited to add it.  What's your better information?

[k4kyv]

lol, don't do that Frank. Maybe in NJ that was OK, but around here, if Jody catches wind, there will be a special usage tax added to drill bits. Atty Richie B will probably sue you for using your back yard for something other than a back yard.

Is there anything you do these days that is not against the law somewhere?

My cousin who used to live there recently told me that in one of the suburbs of DC they have a strict zoning ordinance against doing any kind of work out of your home, and that includes telecommuting via your computer, and even prohibits teachers from bringing papers home to grade.

[Bill, KD0HG]

lol, don't do that Frank. Maybe in NJ that was OK, but around here, if Jody catches wind, there will be a special usage tax added to drill bits. Atty Richie B will probably sue you for using your back yard for something other than a back yard.

Is there anything you do these days that is not against the law somewhere?

My cousin who used to live there recently told me that in one of the suburbs of DC they have a strict zoning ordinance against doing any kind of work out of your home, and that includes telecommuting via your computer, and even prohibits teachers from bringing papers home to grade.

Like I've said before, we only *thought* the Nazis lost the war.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/18/wikipedia_quality_problem/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article730025.ece
http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

Just a few. And I have personal experience in attempting to correct Wikapedia errors on HD Radio. Edits I made were removed, even though the source I cited was easily checked and blatantly clear.

Thorough and correct are two different things.

It's Wikipedia.   If you have better information, you're invited to add it.  What's your better information?

[K6JEK]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/18/wikipedia_quality_problem/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article730025.ece
http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

Just a few. And I have personal experience in attempting to correct Wikapedia errors on HD Radio. Edits I made were removed, even though the source I cited was easily checked and blatantly clear.

Thorough and correct are two different things.

It's Wikipedia.   If you have better information, you're invited to add it.  What's your better information?

Wilipeidia has it's faults.  But that article I quoted looked pretty good.  Take a look.  See if you don't think so too.  Do you have a better article about the Western Energy crisis of 2000, 2001?

[ka3zlr]

That's a little unnerving, the part about teaching, teachers and homework, that's Sad really....I have 2 customers on my route that operate home based business and i can understand some restrictions, One has a Book peddling business and it is a real operation getting her freight into the little garage she has, when the orders are 4 and 5 pallets at a time and getting things wheeled from the truck up her alley, truck doesn't fit and i have to park on the street down two blocks from her house so I can understand some restrictions..really i can...when she should be using commercial storage units.. ah well gotta watch the overhead...

[k4kyv]

http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

Just a few. And I have personal experience in attempting to correct Wikapedia errors on HD Radio.

That one's not exactly free of bias.  In fact, I would take something I read there about as seriously I would something from The Onion.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Can you point out any errors?

http://www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia

Just a few. And I have personal experience in attempting to correct Wikapedia errors on HD Radio.

That one's not exactly free of bias.  In fact, I would take something I read there about as seriously I would something from The Onion.

[W1RKW]

For what it's worth, being a ham and experimenter and having nothing to lose except time, I built an H2O electrolyzer for the ole Ranger figuring what the heck. The gas mileage on the old beast increased by 3 mpg by putting HHO directly into the intake.  I was skeptical but figured I had nothing to lose. It's been a consistent 3 mpg increase over and above what it would get normally on a truck with 230K miles in mileage for 6 weeks now.

[Opcom]

Please sir share the electrolyzer DC voltage and DC current (most important!), as well as any details concerning the chemistry and construction you would care to.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Water injection into a diesel's air intake (dunno about gas engines) actually works to a degree in improving efficiency. Methanol-water injection works somewhat better...Cheapest way to do it is use windshield washer fluid.

Also measurably reduces NO2 emissions by cooling the combustion process.

I had forgotten all about it.

Tnx, Bob.