Gasoline Madness;When to Stop

[K3ZS]

Gas prices in Europe have always been high by our standards.   The main reason is that it is heavily taxed to help maintain the transportation system, including reliable and frequent rail travel.   The difference in price now is hard to compare because we are pricing their gas in our devalued currency.    Retrace the euro back from $1.60 to $.80 and you get a better idea what they are paying relative to us a few years back.

[Bill, KD0HG]

While we bitch about oil prices, in many parts of the developed world, our retail gas prices would be to die for.

Hey Don, I'm moving to Venezuela. There in the SA People's Paradise, gasoline is only .15 a gallon.

[W8EJO]

The worst thing we could do would be to wildly expand drilling and refining.  The inevitable result of unlimited supply would once again be abandonment of conservation efforts and we would quickly drain those new fields dry. 

So you are advocating for the economic suffering of those among us who are least able to cope with these high prices, the poor? Use the harsh force of Big Government to artificially keep the supply low & prices high?

 Rather cold hearted (Marie Antionetteish) on your part Don.   

[W3SLK]

Don said:

This time, the shortage is probably real, due to worldwide demand and the rapid industrialisation of countries like India and China, and the real price is now close to double what it was in the 50's.

I  don't recall there ever being a shortage. The oil ministers have been saying that there is plenty of oil all along. The speculators are pushing the price up to the point where the market will bare it. Capitalism at its best(worst). I just checked Bloomburg and they showed that oil lost about $8/bbl. Let's hope this is the begining of the end of high oil prices.

[WA5VGO]

This is nothing but political rhetoric. True, a grass roots refinery has not been built in the U.S. in 32 years, but the existing refineries have made major expansions. In 1970 the U.S. refining capacity was about 12MBD and refineries operated at about 92% rates. In 2008 the capacity is 17.4MBD and refineries are operating at about 85% capacity.

No the refineries haven't made "major" expansions. 10% to 15% at best. But that was whipped out with Katrina.

" refineries are operating at about 85% capacity."
 
No they ain't. They are operating at 100% present day capacity which is 85% PRE KATRINA capacity. EPA has rebuild permits tied up cause the refiners want to expand as they re-build. EPA don't like that so it's all wrapped up in court.

Now you know the real rest of the story.

For the week of 5-16-2008 U.S. refineries were operating a 88% (15.46 MBD). This is up from 86%  the week of 4-18-2008.

There are plenty of problems, but refining capacity isn't one of them.


Darrell

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Obviously not, if the demand exceeds the supply.

[k4kyv]

I  don't recall there ever being a shortage. The oil ministers have been saying that there is plenty of oil all along.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

[K6JEK]

I  don't recall there ever being a shortage. The oil ministers have been saying that there is plenty of oil all along.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

I was driving an Oldmobile Cutlass during the 73 crisis, 330 V8, four barrel -- thirsty for gas.   In Seattle we had even odd days for buying gas, a 10 gallon limit and long, long lines.   I was jealous of my friends who had smaller cars.   That 10 gallons went a lot further in my buddy's 4 banger Volvo.

[ka3zlr]

I wasn't going to revisit this,.. But, it has to be said...with all the technology that is to be had today as compared to what alot of us grew up with and Enjoy so much "Hollow State"...obviously..

 It is actually, what is being contrived and executed at will on this planet, the continual battered Class Warfare State, in the ultimate in Greed scheme of things that is just maddening....

 When the Goal is to Defeat Gravity.....Locomotion through a field of force, wether on a Plane or Spherical Space....We have Gravity, We have an oxygenated environment, and We have Light...The mechanics are a Given....

I just don't understand it....that's all....at some point people Need to Stand up man...

[W3RSW]

"Re: Gasoline Madness;When to Stop?"

Anytime now.

[WD8BIL]

I'll let my nephew at Marathon know they are expanding. After all, his name in on the rebuild/expand permit application the EPA has held up in court.

Oh... if capacity is not the problem why are we importing 15% of our GASOLINE ?

U.S. Weekly Total Gasoline Imports (Thousand Barrels per Day)
 
2008-Apr 04/04  907    04/11  950    04/18  1,006    04/25  1,385   

[WA5VGO]

I'll let my nephew at Marathon know they are expanding. After all, his name in on the rebuild/expand permit application the EPA has held up in court.

Oh... if capacity is not the problem why are we importing 15% of our GASOLINE ?

U.S. Weekly Total Gasoline Imports (Thousand Barrels per Day)
 
2008-Apr 04/04  907    04/11  950    04/18  1,006    04/25  1,385   

http://tinyurl.com/3r7yrn

[KA1ZGC]

I'll let my nephew at Marathon know they are expanding. After all, his name in on the rebuild/expand permit application the EPA has held up in court.

http://tinyurl.com/3r7yrn

Okay, so Fluor won a contract bid with Marathon to provide engineering design services. This means the design phase hasn't even started yet.

That's totally irrelevant to whether or not the EPA has blessed the expansion, or is holding it up in litigation.

It also means that by the time the expansion is complete and the refinery is up to its expanded capacity, the pricing trends in crude may have slowed, levelled off, or even started going down.

...or am I missing your point?

[WA5VGO]

I'll let my nephew at Marathon know they are expanding. After all, his name in on the rebuild/expand permit application the EPA has held up in court.

http://tinyurl.com/3r7yrn

Okay, so Fluor won a contract bid with Marathon to provide engineering design services. This means the design phase hasn't even started yet.

That's totally irrelevant to whether or not the EPA has blessed the expansion, or is holding it up in litigation.

It also means that by the time the expansion is complete and the refinery is up to its expanded capacity, the pricing trends in crude may have slowed, levelled off, or even started going down.

...or am I missing your point?

The only point was, and is, the fact that no grass roots refineries have been built in over 30 years is irrelevant. Oil companies don't build new refineries, they expand existing ones. This is something that has been going on over the past 30 years and continues today. With refineries operating at capacities in the upper 80%, capacity is not a cause of high gasoline prices.

Darrell

[Bill, KD0HG]

I'll let my nephew at Marathon know they are expanding. After all, his name in on the rebuild/expand permit application the EPA has held up in court.

Oh... if capacity is not the problem why are we importing 15% of our GASOLINE ?

U.S. Weekly Total Gasoline Imports (Thousand Barrels per Day)
 
2008-Apr 04/04  907    04/11  950    04/18  1,006    04/25  1,385   

Bud, we get a lot of the above refined fuel from the huge Valero refinery on Aruba, a Dutch territory. It's the largest refinery in the Carribean. I personally don't think not being on the US mainland is an issue...Aruba just happens to be stragetically located near Gulf oil deposits and the USA.

Valero also recently bought the former Conoco refinery in Denver. Invested hundreds of millions in it. The Denver refinery gets its feedstock from Alberta tar sands oil and not so much any more from depleting local oil fields. Again, it's logistics, Denver has the largest refinery in the US that's geographically close to Alberta.

http://www.valero.com/AboutUs/Refineries/Aruba.htm

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Why only in the upper 80's? Is this normal, up or down? What percentage is reasonably expected? With out that info, the 80% number doesn't meam much.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Bud, we get a lot of the above refined fuel from the huge Valero refinery on Aruba, a Dutch territory. It's the largest refinery in the Carribean. I personally don't think not being on the US mainland is an issue...Aruba just happens to be stragetically located near Gulf oil deposits and the USA.

Oooo... that's OUTSOURCING! That's baaaaad!

Or so I've been told.

[KA1ZGC]

The only point was, and is, the fact that no grass roots refineries have been built in over 30 years is irrelevant.

Only if you consider the reasons why no new refineries have been built to be irrelevant.

Oil companies don't build new refineries, they expand existing ones. This is something that has been going on over the past 30 years and continues today.

Absolutely right, because that's what happens when you let the Jane Fondas of the world dictate your energy policy. Overblown (and often fictitious) environmental concerns trump keeping this country functioning. The empty can rattles the most.

Hell, you can't even build a windmill farm in this country without a bunch of yuppies complaining about the effects on their property values, or a bunch of hippies complaining that there's some remote chance that some migratory birds might have to fly around them.

Just because the oil companies haven't built a new refinery in decades doesn't automatically mean it's because they don't want to.

With refineries operating at capacities in the upper 80%, capacity is not a cause of high gasoline prices.

Do you recall the refineries that got flooded in Hurricane Katrina? They still haven't fixed all the damage yet. They're running in the 80s because it's physically impossible for them to run at full capacity.

You'd have to be extremely naive to beleive that refining capacity is not any kind of factor in gasoline prices. Go ask any economics professor.

--Thom
Killer Appetizer One Zesty German Chocolate

[k4kyv]

Even if a new program of refinery building were started to-day, it would take years if not decades to get them on line.  If they still haven't got the ones damaged by Katrina back into service yet, think how much longer it would be before brand new ones started from ground up would be operational.

Personally, I am much more concerned about the cost of heating fuel than the cost of gasoline.  When gasoline is cheap and in abundant supply, too much of it gets wasted.  The present "crisis" is déjà vu, right from the mid 1970's.  If this nation hadn't abandoned the conservation efforts that were initiated back then, as the eroding buying power of the dollarette gradually brought the real cost back down, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in to-day.

[Jim, W5JO]

Personally, I am much more concerned about the cost of heating fuel than the cost of gasoline.  When gasoline is cheap and in abundant supply, too much of it gets wasted.  The present "crisis" is déjà vu, right from the mid 1970's.  If this nation hadn't abandoned the conservation efforts that were initiated back then, as the eroding buying power of the dollarette gradually brought the real cost back down, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in to-day.

Not to worry too much, gasoline can be down blended to produce heating oil. 

[ka3zlr]

Well, what is the outlook for any country if it is not for it's infrastructure, it's Growth...capacities..usages...etc..like any Flock the caretaker(s) have to design build feed show some care...it's business..

Like any Business, the point is to provide a product and create wealth...

I'm Not comparing this to the 70's..we're not comparing the Police Actions in place now to Vietnam...or is it comparable in terms of business I dunno..

I'm not under fire therefore I don't have the right, i can only go on what information is released and that, like any Information is handled and formed for release..like the figures for production I'm not there looking at the barrel counters.

But I do know what i see in traffic today, and it's not conservation...and I do know Facts and Figures can be Manipulated...control the Spigot, control the cost...

The Power Plant is in need of replacing...

[Bill, KD0HG]

Wait until you all see the price of tires..Almost double last summer.

[W1ATR]

Check out this article from my local paper this morning. (Rep-Am dot com)

Suing OPEC a feckless idea

Gasoline zoomed past $4 a gallon last week in Connecticut, nearly double what it was a year ago. These days, it's hard to find the silver lining around the cumulo- nimbus of energy costs, but here's one: People finally are beginning to realize a lot more goes into the price of gasoline than the cost of finding oil and pumping it out of the ground.

Motorists aren't falling for Congress' witch hunt of Big Oil executives because they know what's really going on. They realize state and federal taxes are a significant part of record gasoline prices; in fact, of all the entities in the chain, government makes the biggest profit. Moreover, they know government regulation, from the environmentally catastrophic ethanol mandate to requirements for boutique fuels to rules against more domestic exploration and production, add to the price, often unnecessarily.

Now Congress wants to add another layer of cost by bringing in the lawyers. The House has approved by a veto-proof 324-84 margin and sent to the Senate legislation that would allow the government to sue OPEC members under federal antitrust laws if it suspects they are colluding to limit oil supplies and set crude prices.

The thorny question of how the feds would compel lieutenants of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez or Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to appear in federal court is not explained. But Rep. Steve Kagen, D-Wis., said his bill "guarantees that oil prices will reflect supply and demand economic rules, instead of wildly speculative and perhaps illegal activities."

Actually, it only guarantees more misery for motorists. If Justice somehow could make sovereign OPEC nations subject to U.S. laws and then haul them before a federal judge, the cartel could retaliate by, well, colluding.

It could slash exports or curtail production at refineries it owns in this country. But if Justice somehow won — that's almost impossible given the oil market's global nature — and OPEC was compelled to pay financial penalties, the cost merely would be passed along to U.S. consumers. The fact is even if OPEC is colluding, the United States has almost zero leverage, thanks to exploding international demand for oil and Congress' refusal to permit more domestic energy exploration and development.

Rep. Kagen said Americans "are at the mercy" of OPEC. In fact they are at the mercy of a know-nothing Congress that thinks it can sue its way to lower energy prices.

[Bill, KD0HG]

NO politics, please!

[KA1ZGC]

NO politics, please!

Why didn't you say that to me when I posted about Congressional threats to limit profits of oil companies?