Gasoline Madness;When to Stop

[ka3zlr]

It was on this mornings news....Prices falling on SUV's...haa haa  no trade in value....

Now we'll get to see what they're really worth...

[W8EJO]

Senate Bill 2958 is still alive!

The American Energy Protection Act of 2008 would remove restrictions on oil exploration and drilling in Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) and the Outer Continental Shelf (OCS). This would open access to about 24 billion barrels of oil....

A few thousand emails to Sen. Jay Bingaman, the chairman of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, might help get it to the Senate floor & get it passed.

http://bingaman.senate.gov/contact/types/email-issue.cfm

[WBear2GCR]

Don't be foolish or naive about this.

Ask yourself where does all that oil from that Alaskan pipeline go?
Afaik, most of it goes to Japan and asia.

The oil from anywhere is likely to merely go into the "big pot" that is the global oil supply, and not specifically to the USA.

So, unless the bill specifies that the output of "Anwr" will go only to domestic usage, it's merely pissing into the big global bucket.

Since the government seems to be full of "globalists" it's rather unlikely that unless we get a Libertarian, true Conservative (Pat Buchannan anyone?), or bona fide PATRIOT into the White House, and into that excuse for a Congress, forget about it.

Pipe dreams...

                   _-_-bear

[W8EJO]

Don't be foolish or naive about this.


Pipe dreams...

                   _-_-bear

I too lean to the libertarian philosophy but Senate Bill 2958 is a step in the right direction. A journey of a 1000 miles begins with the first step (or something like that).

Be positive! I know its so much easier to be negative but negativity never got anyone anywhere..

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

How about a double negative?

Negativity never got no one no where...


ALL oil goes into the global bucket. So extra oil from ANYWHERE will help. The current demand is 86,000 barrels a day. The current supply is 85,000 barrels. You figure it out.

[N8LGU]

You know... I remember in the early 70's when we had an oil "crisis" the government instituted a national 55 mph speed limit on all interstate highways. Seems as though they are not really concerned enough to do that, now. I think the oil barons are making too much money to want the prices to go down. Now they are kicking around a bill here in WV to outlaw woodstoves. I wonder why? Wood is a renewable fuel, not a fossil fuel. Also, it does not add CO2 to the atmosphere when you burn it. It adds just as much when it decays in the woods. The WV legislators are getting lobbied, i.e. bribed, by the oil baron fascists.

[ka3zlr]

Great they're trying to Ban wood Stoves...that's real intelligent...

This thing gets deeper and deeper with hilarity...I think it's all about Control and that's that...

[K3ZS]

Some towns around here have outlawed outdoor wood furnaces.   Probably a few people set them close to the property line and smoked out their neighbors.

[ka3zlr]

LOL..Smoke em up here Boss....

I'm just amazed with what I'm reading here...

[WBear2GCR]

ALL oil goes into the global bucket. So extra oil from ANYWHERE will help. The current demand is 86,000 barrels a day. The current supply is 85,000 barrels. You figure it out.

Dunno if that is accurate, but assuming it is, guess they just can't find a way to eek out another 1,000 barrels a day??

I hear there is cheap land under the Brooklyn Bridge too! 

                  _-_-bear

[KF1Z]

Some towns around here have outlawed outdoor wood furnaces.   Probably a few people set them close to the property line and smoked out their neighbors.

Problem with those things, is they tell you " you don't NEED a tall chimney..."
So, the smoke stays low to the ground and pi**es off the neighbors.

If you do put a taller smokestack on, the smoke goes up higher....

I can't remember if it was this thread I mentioned this before, but here in Verminmont, the just passed a law stating the outdoor boiler has to comply with emission standard...

BIG $$$ for any that meet that standard....

Buggers........

[K6JEK]

RAV4 electric went for a whopping $89,200.   What is going on here?   It must be a collector car now. That price makes no sense for a daily driver.

Last week a friend of mine in the energy biz got a tour of the Southern CA Edison vehicle test facility as part of some energy conference he was attending in Orange, California. SCE tested a fleet of these electric RAV4s by giving them to meter readers and tracking how they did.   All are going strong after 100,000 miles. The batteries degraded less than expected. They still hold 80-100 miles worth of charge after 100,000 miles. None has needed a brake job because of the regenerative braking. All this with NiMH batteries, nothing fancier. He calculated the cost of an overnight charge at about $2.70.  I wonder if he did the math right.  $2.70 for 80-100 miles.   

But you can't have one, that is unless you want to spend a fortune.

[Jim, W5JO]

Last week I talked to a fellow ham on 75 meters down here.  He is in the oil business and had about 500,000 barrels that he has been trying to sell for a couple of weeks.  No one was buying because they had all they could store.  Refineries first then drill like hell was his advice.

Also the regionalization of fuel with different parts of the county using different blends drive up the price.  One blend everywhere could do a lot for those of you who live in the larger cities.

[Bill, KD0HG]

The key thing to remember is that the gasoline engine has survived because it's the most economical to manufacture of all the transportation technologies. Cheap to build, maintain and a century of expertise.

Add 20% for a diesel vehicle, 250% for your hi-tech RAV4s.

Disappointing ,but right now, the cost of fuel efficiency is as much as driving a guzzler.

Sheesh! We can't win...

Bring back the Stanley Steamers!

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Bring back the Stanley Steamers!

Or Tron's idea for a coal fired airplane!

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

YOU are the one who said the globalists run things. I don't see how contradicting yourself adds to the discussion.

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=16103.msg110193#msg110193

In case you forgot.

ALL oil goes into the global bucket. So extra oil from ANYWHERE will help. The current demand is 86,000 barrels a day. The current supply is 85,000 barrels. You figure it out.

Dunno if that is accurate, but assuming it is, guess they just can't find a way to eek out another 1,000 barrels a day??

I hear there is cheap land under the Brooklyn Bridge too! 

                  _-_-bear

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Actually, it's very simple.

Why we have an oil crisis 

A lot of folks can't understand how we came to have an oil shortage here in our country. Well, there's a very simple answer:

Nobody bothered to check the oil. 

We just didn't know we were getting low. The reason for that is purely geographical. Our oil is located in 
 

• Alaska
• California 
• Coastal Florida 
• Coastal Louisiana  
• Kansas 
• Oklahoma 
  
• Pennsylvania 
  
• Texas 

 
Unfortunately, Our DIPSTICKS Are located in 
Washington , DC !!!

[ka3zlr]

Well I understand all this, and I understand the Lack of any real leadership or the desire to, But I really enjoy the performance of that little V6 in my Ranger and I just really like my little truck...

I'm just concerned that the cost of all this Individualism may very well bring on a serious recession...there is a possibility...then again with the way the economy werks..Now..it's a Tough Call...

Anyhow Back to werk...everybody be safe out there...

73.

[KA1ZGC]

Thom,

Ur anger is focused in the wrong direction.

Anger? Give it a rest, Bear.

IF your parents invested their own money in this manner, then the outcome (good or bad) is their sole responsibility. Imho, if that is what happened, then they made a risky choice, and don't bitch when the dice come up the wrong way.

If you hedged your bets towards oil always being less than $40 per barrel, then you made a risky choice. Don't bitch when the dice come up the wrong way.

By the way, you need to get in the habit of reading what I actually write. If you had, you would have read (several times) that my parents are not losing money on their oil stocks, and you would also have read (several times) that many retirees, not necessarily my parents in particular, have a signifigant share of oil stocks keeping them fed in the autumn years of their lives. Any attempts by Congress to limit that money only hurts those minority shareholders, the oil companies will keep doing what they do.

So your "spilt milk" speech is interesting, but pointless.

--Thom
King Abraham One Zebraham George Charlie

[W1UJR]

We've got plenty of oil in this country, if the "do gooders" did not have us hogtied over drilling in "sensitive areas". We'll lose the country rather than disturb a few nesting birds, go figure.

George Soros, who broke the Bank of England, has some interesting things to say about the price of fuel, see below.


" May 26 (Bloomberg) -- George Soros says speculators are a key cause of the sharp rise in the price of crude oil, the Daily Telegraph reported, citing an interview with the billionaire investor.

The Telegraph said Soros maintained that while the soaring oil price, which hit a record $135 a barrel last week, can be linked to the weak dollar, declining Middle East supply and rising demand by China, speculators have had a strong effect on the crude oil market.

The price increase has a ``parabolic shape,'' Soros said, noting that such a shape is ``characteristic of bubbles,'' according to the newspaper.

The oil bubble will not burst until the U.S. and Britain are both in recession, at which time oil prices may drop dramatically, the Telegraph cited Soros as saying. "

[WA1GFZ]

Wait till te oil Ba$turds gain control of all water rights

[WD8BIL]

This is nothing but political rhetoric. True, a grass roots refinery has not been built in the U.S. in 32 years, but the existing refineries have made major expansions. In 1970 the U.S. refining capacity was about 12MBD and refineries operated at about 92% rates. In 2008 the capacity is 17.4MBD and refineries are operating at about 85% capacity.

No the refineries haven't made "major" expansions. 10% to 15% at best. But that was whipped out with Katrina.

" refineries are operating at about 85% capacity."
 
No they ain't. They are operating at 100% present day capacity which is 85% PRE KATRINA capacity. EPA has rebuild permits tied up cause the refiners want to expand as they re-build. EPA don't like that so it's all wrapped up in court.

Now you know the real rest of the story.

[WA5VGO]

This is nothing but political rhetoric. True, a grass roots refinery has not been built in the U.S. in 32 years, but the existing refineries have made major expansions. In 1970 the U.S. refining capacity was about 12MBD and refineries operated at about 92% rates. In 2008 the capacity is 17.4MBD and refineries are operating at about 85% capacity.

No the refineries haven't made "major" expansions. 10% to 15% at best. But that was whipped out with Katrina.

" refineries are operating at about 85% capacity."
 
No they ain't. They are operating at 100% present day capacity which is 85% PRE KATRINA capacity. EPA has rebuild permits tied up cause the refiners want to expand as they re-build. EPA don't like that so it's all wrapped up in court.

Now you know the real rest of the story.

Motiva in Port Authur, Texas is currently doubling the size of their refinery. Marathon is doubling the size of their refinery in Garyville, Louisiana. Pasadena Refining in Pasadena, Texas is doubling theirs. There are probably others. It dosn't look like their hands are being tied by the EPA.

Expansion is much more cost effective than a grass roots effort.

Darrell

[KF1Z]

How about a double negative?

Negativity never got no one no where...


ALL oil goes into the global bucket. So extra oil from ANYWHERE will help. The current demand is 86,000 barrels a day. The current supply is 85,000 barrels. You figure it out.

You must mean 86 million BPD  ?

Alyeska Pipeline Service claims to have piped 21,591,166 Barrels in April alone.

Or what did I miss?

[k4kyv]

Part of the equation for the gasoline price in the U.S. is the demand.  It seems to me that the citizens could cut down on the demand if they wanted to.  I drove home today from the Akron area and gas out there is $3.99, diesel fuel $4.75. 

I drove back on I-80 with cruise control set at 65 mph.  Most cars and tractor-trailers were doing faster than me still.  I got 39.5 miles per gallon in my 1997 Camry.  The tractor-trailers that passed me uphill sure don't get that.

Interestingly, I talked with one ham in the Akron area while I was out there who is familiar with the trucking business due to being a part-time engineer with a major tire company in that area.   Besides the fact that the trucking company could save money on fuel, the orchestration of the arrival and departures at the trucking terminals is tightly controlled.   Food supplies and other items at the stores these days all follow that Just-in-Time concept, which means the stores can run out of stock, as there is almost no regional stock buffers anymore.  He said we are in deep do-do for food if something were to happen to the shipping/distribution system we are now relying on.

It’s a shame the railroads have been run in the toilet.  Seems like they could be a help here now.  We may need to get out of the rat race and settle back to doing things the way they were done in the 40’s and 50’s; with the focus on long-term results rather than the short-term approach.

While we bitch about oil prices, in many parts of the developed world, our retail gas prices would be to die for.  It's running over $8 a gallon in UK now, and was about $5 a gallon when I last visited there nearly 10 years ago.

Most of us can recall the contrived shortage in the mid 70's, and the big push for conservation.  But once prices readjusted themselves, oil magically became plentiful again and conservation efforts were quietly abandoned.  But the buying power of the dollarette continued its steady decline, until the real cost of oil had dropped to rival what it was in the 50's.

This time, the shortage is probably real, due to worldwide demand and the rapid industrialisation of countries like India and China, and the real price is now close to double what it was in the 50's.

The worst thing we could do would be to wildly expand drilling and refining.  The inevitable result of unlimited supply would once again be abandonment of conservation efforts and we would quickly drain those new fields dry.  Look what happened to the North Sea reserves once they were exploited.  Our "40 year" supply would quickly degenerate to a 20 or 10-year supply as we would go back to wastefully doubling our energy usage every 10 years.

Better for those untapped reserves to be left alone for now.  They will still be there waiting for us in future decades when there will be a critical need for them, along with the likelihood that drilling and refining technology will be cleaner and more environmentally friendly by then.  Going full speed ahead to-day and drilling the hell out of the ANWR and our offshore reserves would be short-sighted, like the guy in his 40's or 50's who raids his 401K account to pay for the $80,000 sports car he thinks he needs to get him through his mid-life crisis.

Maybe we are in trouble now due to the oil shorage, but we would be in deeper trouble if there were no shortage.