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Author Topic: INVERTED L MOP radio  (Read 5999 times)
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flintstone mop
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« on: January 02, 2007, 05:47:53 PM »

Hello friends
On this 2nd day in January in the year of 2007 an inverted "L" was partially born. I used one of the stick methods mentioned in another thread for determining tree height and found something close to 55 feet high. I know this is not the ultimate situation for 160M, but I'm on retirement and connot afford a 100 foot tower.
We have 55 feet vertical and I strung the horizontal part out approx 130 feet to a pine tree that is slightly higher because of a slight rise in the property. I didn't want to use the pine tree for the vertical coz it would have put the tuner 300 feet from the nearest coax feed to an 80/40M vertical. And the pine tree sways a lot on a windy day. I'll use a vac relay to switch from the 80/40M vertical to the "L" and the usual isolation methods to feed a DC voltage over the coax to activate the relay and send RF to the tuner/"L" antenna.
The next phase, depending on the WX, will be the radials and the tuner box. I have left over components for a tuner.
Questions:
Where can I get 4000 feet of "radial wire"?
Is it possible to get a match without a tuner?
I have a lot of extra wire for the horizontal part of the "L".
Is there some magical ratio of vertical length and horizontal length that will make this a reasonable antenna?
I know that radiation resistance is kinda important. 20 ohms would be a dream, I guess.   
Is 30 ohms is the target value?
Thanks for the eyeball.
Fred MOP radio
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Fred KC4MOP
Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2007, 12:12:44 AM »

Make the total length of the L 3/8 or 5/16 of a wavelength. The feedpoint Z will be close to 50 Ohms with some inductive reactance. All is "tuner" now needed is a series cap to tune out the inductive reactance.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2007, 08:30:37 AM »

Check Murphy Surplus. Mike was selling spools of magnet wire. You could also do a T antenna if you have another support. Yup make it a bit long and tune with a cap.
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2007, 10:41:49 AM »

Thanks guys,
I know that this thread is turning into an antenna thread, bear with me.
The search will go on for the "Radial wire" I was thinking along the same lines of using enameled copper wire #20 or so. Hopefully it's longer than needed and a vac cap will make it 50 ohms. I'll worry about radiation resistance later. The radial system and ground losses will determine how well this thing works. It's just another antenna to play with.
I was going to consider using the existing system of open ladder line and the "sort of" VEE and convert to a "T". THEN the vertical component would be 70 feet long. But there was feedback  that the coax for the Yagi and the rotor wires would interact and bring RF into the shack or distort the pattern. (TRUE or FALSE?)
I have read in ON4UN that they would not be an issue IF they are not resonant to the operating frequency. This is for an "L" on a steel lattice tower, held out 4 feet from the tower. My YAGI would be a benefit and be the capacity hat.
IF I make the switch then the (VEE) dipole is only for 160M. The tuning network would be outside and I would feed it with coass. The NEW "L" could become the antenna for 80M but, then it would be 300 feet from the house and tuning/moving the freqency is going to turn into a nightmare. I like the convenience of tuning from the shack and the open ladder of the present system. I even thought of running a separate antenna supported by another pulley and making an "L" with the horizontal wire running perpindicular to the VEE. Interaction should be minimal (TRUE or FALSE?)
The picture below is the $$$pole and the VEE is at 70 feet apex, open ladder line, the ends are 40 feet off the ground.
The ladder line could be made vertical and the ends shorted to make the VEE a TEE. I would have to run radial wires and make a tuner at the base of the "L".
Which direction would yous guys go?
Activate the new "L" for the extra 160M antenna???
Make the VEE a TEE??
Run a new separate wire with another pulley and make an "L" in addition to the exisitng VEE on the $$pole??
Thanks for looking
Always thanks for any replies. There is a lot of experience and help out here.
Fred MOP radio


* POLE.jpg (29.62 KB, 320x426 - viewed 363 times.)
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2007, 11:22:26 AM »

Quote
I was going to consider using the existing system of open ladder line and the "sort of" VEE and convert to a "T". THEN the vertical component would be 70 feet long. But there was feedback that the coax for the Yagi and the rotor wires would interact and bring RF into the shack or distort the pattern. (TRUE or FALSE?)

Only if those items aren't properly decoupled on 160 meters. Some pattern distortion may occur, but is it enough to worry about? Probably not. Since the tribander is above the T, it may provide some additional top loaded or be out of the picture all together.


Quote
I even thought of running a separate antenna supported by another pulley and making an "L" with the horizontal wire running perpendicular to the VEE. Interaction should be minimal (TRUE or FALSE?)

How far apart will the two antennas be? Being perpendicular will help with interaction. Also, if the V is not resonant on or near 160 meters, interaction should be reduced/minimized.


Quote
Which direction would yous guys go?

What is the reason for the Inverted-L (IL) or making the V a T? Is this to get you on 160 meters, or to give you a better long distance antenna for 160? If you are just interested in AM rag chews on 160, the V is probably as good as it gets (assuming it works on 160). If you want some DX coverage, the T or IL will be better (only if you put in a good ground system).

Since most of the work will be installing the ground system, there's probably not much difference whether you go with the T or the V. The T will require you to disconnect the open-wire line at the ground level and short the portion still connected to the antenna. Then a tuner will be required and a coax run back to the shack. This will not allow tuning from the shack. However, if you tune the thing up for 1.9 MHz, you should be able to cover most of the 160 meter band without excessive SWR or loss.

The feed arrangement for the L will be simpler, just a series cap. Once again, tune it for 1.9 MHz and you can cover most of the band. Or if you think most of your operation will be below 1.9 MHz, tune it for 1850 or 1875 or such. A little extra work will be required to put up the L, but it's offset by a more simple fed and switching arrangement compared to the T. Also, if you go with the 3/8 to 5/16 wavelength L, you will get some higher angle radiation (the horizontal portion of the L will radiate). This can make the L a decent performer for both near and far contacts, although, my guess is the V will beat it for closer in contacts. In contrast, if everything is symmetrical on the T, you will have almost no high angle radiation, with a near null straight up (90 degrees elevation). Theory shows this and I've seen it when I ran my dipole in Baltimore as a T antenna. Once when I was on the T, I could barely hear Paul, WA3VJB (about 10-15 miles away). When I switched back to the dipole configuration, he was full strap.

So, I would lean towards the L, since it is likely to be a little more versatile than the T, and the tuning/switching arrangement would be simpler. But that's just me.
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2007, 12:26:57 PM »

Thank you Steve,
I'm gonna go with the separate/newly run "L". I didn't realize that there would be that much BW to play with. Even a 3 or 4:1 match will not hurt anything. This perfect 1:1 SWR world we have run in to is a result of the DA** plastic radios and the solid state finals. I realize the coass will get lossy with high SWR but the loss is still under 3dB at these MF freqs. It's not like a 50,000 Watt broadcast station running 24/7 and a mismatch like that cannot be tolerated very long, by the antenna tuning components.
The purpose of the "L" might be for a longer distance. The VEE is getting me around the East coast and mid-west. The test could be at the end of FEB for the SSB 160M contess. Hopefully I could have the VEE and the "L" to compare.
OK FB
Thanks
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2007, 04:05:16 PM »

The picture below is the $$$pole and the VEE is at 70 feet apex

Just out of curiosity, how many $$$ did it take to put up a pole like that?  Huh
I'm considering having two poles erected 135+ feet apart... maybe even four if the price is right  Tongue

-Charles
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2007, 04:52:09 PM »

Hi Charles,
I went with blinders on for this coz it was just one pole. And prices can vary from different areas of the U.S. I dealt with an electrical contractor (Good move?  Bad Move?) Because the pole was 70 feet there was a "special order" and transportation to get it to the house.....$3000. Installation for the pole was digging a 7 foot hole 3 feet in dia. and a "bucket truck" to put the pole in place and mount the Yagi and attach the rotor wire, coax, ground wire/rods....$3500 OUCH!!! It will outlast me that's for sure and no permits required for wooden poles. IF there's a problem up there it will cost $500 for a bucket truck for 4 hours.
If I were dealing with a shorter pole the cost goes down dramatically.
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
flintstone mop
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2007, 05:00:30 PM »

Hello....it's me!!
There has been thoughts from others about using Alu-minium for ground radials. I can get 5000 feet for $60 including shipping through e-Bay. #15 G wire.
Copper surplus wire would come to $100 not inlucding shipping for #20 PVC hook up wire.
Question:
Will there now be additional losses using Al-u-minium wire? How do I connect 40 wires together and interface to copper wire going to a copper ground rod? Use the Anti-oxident stuff? I'll have to do a google search for Aluminum radial systems.
I know BC stations are going to Aluminum after they discover that there copper system was ripped out of the ground!! Shocked
This is fun, but I want to do it almost right the first time.
Thanks
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2007, 07:19:14 PM »

I put aluminum in the ground and it rotted in 10 years #8. Copper will out last you.

Wow,
You could put up some serious tower for that money.
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2007, 07:40:26 PM »

Well, I was new in town and the local Ham club couldn't help me find anyone who had a tower for a giveaway. The electrical contractor had an RF group that wouldn't even talk to me coz they knew I was a Ham looking for a break. THEN you have to deal with the locals/township permits,inspections,engineers.
YUP, I cudda put up a 120 footer for that money.
And copper it is.
Thanks
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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