The AM Forum
May 02, 2024, 07:44:33 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Links Staff List Gallery Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: LOW ANTENNA 160M  (Read 7532 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
flintstone mop
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5055


« on: December 08, 2005, 09:38:18 AM »

Hello everyone
I trust ya'll are keeping warm!!
The other night I was in QSO on 160M with some nice folks and the one station in the round table was nothing but selective fading. It was difficult to understand anything he was saying. The other stations were excellent copy.
The station in question has a loop antenna for 160M but it's only 25 feet from the ground. There was another famous op who is SK now, W8EP(?) and he had the same effect of constant selective fading.
The question is if this selective fading is made worse on 160M with low antennas? Too much cancelling of the signal or distortion of the pattern from such a low antenna??

THanks
fred
Logged

Fred KC4MOP
KA8WTK
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 874



« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2005, 11:16:50 AM »

Good question...
  My 160 meter dipole averages about 25' above ground. I have not had mention made of selective fading during a QSO before. That does not mean that it wasn't happening, it may just have not been mentioned if it was happening.
  I'll ask during the next few QSO's and get some responses from stations at different distances.
Logged

Bill KA8WTK
Jim, W5JO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2508


« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2005, 12:05:32 PM »

Fred you will find selective fading on any antenna.  The low dipole only contributes to short range because of the pattern.  If your signal at a station is S9 and you have 10 db fades with your antenna you see what happens.  If your antenna is up higher or more efficient for the distance and the resulting signal at the receiver is + 20 the noticed effect is better received signal even with the 10 db fades.

Yesterday at 3:30 PM I was in conversation with 3 stations on 3.880.  One over 500 miles from me with high power, one 120 miles from me with 100 watts and another abut 50 miles from me with 100 watts.

The far station has a 93 ft. vertical with lots of copper underneath it.  The other two had dipoles less than 1/4 wave high for 160.  We moved to 160 and I could hear the 500 mile station almost as well as on 80.  Could not hear the guy 120 miles away and the guy 50 miles away had a good signal.

All stations had fading but with the mid distant station it made no difference because I could not hear him.  The other two with good signals had fading but it was not enough for me to loose contact.  All three reported my signal at +10 or so on my inverted L.  Getting more signal into the air will reduce the effects of fading.  Go vertical for 160 or get that antenna higher. 
Logged
K1JJ
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8893


"Let's go kayaking, Tommy!" - Yaz


« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2005, 12:53:19 PM »

Fading is usually a dynamic function of the state of the ionosphere for a particular incoming vertical angle to your station. 

Fading is very pronounced for local contacts when using a dipole at 1/2 wave above ground. This is becuz the main antenna lobe is very low compared to the local incoming high angle stuff. Thus, as Jim said, having a weak signal to work with makes it easier to drop into the noise floor vs: a stronger signal.  It's kind of an illusion sometimes.

The [impractical] solution is to have more than one antenna in instantaneous diversity, thus having the potential to grab an edge in the higher angles and in the lower angles as they happen. There must be an active selection process or else it gets watered down if they're all on at the same time, just like if you tied six Yagis together, all in different directions producing an omni pattern again - the power/signal simply splits between them.  But, two antennas tied together at zero degrees phased, at totally different heights may overlap well and provide only a -3db loss in overall pattern vs: one. Plus, that nice filled in pattern is much better than to have a -15 or -20db hole using only one antenna optimized for the job.  Depends upon what you wanna do. Usually, one antenna for DX and one for local is the rifle approach vs: shotgun.

Probably the best SINGLE antenna for all around local and farther out USA work for 160M would be the same as on 75M, only scaled up. A dipole at 160' high. This is the equaivalent to a dipole at 80' on 75M. This has a good mix of both high and low angle components with a max lobe at about 45 degrees or so. This is a tough feat to pull off, of course.

A vertical with ground radials is, of course, the best antenna for long haul DX on 160M... hands down. Even better than a Yagi at 240' cuz of the approx -10 db Earth absorption of horiz polarization vs: vertical. On 75M and above it's just the opposite and high Yagis rule.

So, bottom line is that on 160M, controlling antenna takeoff angle is VERY difficult since you need to get the horizontal antenna up 120' JUST for 1/4 wave above ground. At 1/4 wave high, the antenna shows just a little difference in vertical angles from 1/8 wave high. [60']   There will be times when a dipole at 240' is needed for the proper match up to the ionosphere at that particular time.    A vertically polarized antenna has such drastically low angles that it is impractical for local work and will be weaker the vast majority of the time.

So, just get the horizontal antenna up as high as possible on 160M and try to grab as much low angle as possible - the high angle stuff will be well taken care of already if below 120' up.

As far as a lower antenna having more fading.... again, it just depends upon the incoming angle. It the angles incoming are very high, the low dipole will have less fading than the higher one, assuming the match up at that time is within it's range.  With three stations in a QSO with you, the odds of all stations having the same optimum vertical angle into you for any length of time are nil. So, someone is usually gonna be PW until the ionosphere changes and the next guy is PW, and so on...  Grin

T
Logged

Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed.  Easily done in DSP.

Wise Words : "I'm as old as I've ever been... and I'm as young as I'll ever be."

There's nothing like an old dog.
Jim, W5JO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2508


« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2005, 01:47:43 PM »

One of the reasons for me using the L is the fact that the antenna has both horizontal and vertical components.  The horizontal is not as pronounced as a dipole but does add some.    The majority of the signal is the vertical and helps with the long distant as the horizontal does with short distance.

One thing for sure, if you can't do much more with your antenna, you will meet people near you that are great to talk to.  I don't care if I work 5000 miles away or just 50, I enjoy who I can contact.  Of course, it would be great if we could make contact.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
 AMfone © 2001-2015
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.06 seconds with 18 queries.