Barn Project - Your Design Suggestions

[W1UJR]

Well it looks like the old barn at the new QTH may come down this fall after all.

I am using plans borrowed from a friend's project, a "saltbox" design barn, workshop, ham shack and home study.
Size is about 38 x 48, 2nd floor is also usable, think that will be the study and guest room area.

I need your help and suggestions with design and layout!

This will be a combination guest house, home study/library, workshop and hamshack (I suspect the YL has some ideas as well).

I know that many have done this before, so I am looking for your input on a couple of items:

1) Running coax into the building, before the sheetrock goes up, what is the best method to run coax into the walls and ceiling?
I have heard of using PVC tubing in the walls/ceiling, others just run RG-213.
I do plan to have the contractor place a 4" pipe from the center of the utilities closet to the outside, capped on both ends, for future projects, like maybe a tower.
Your suggestions please?

2) Desk/bench, operating space.
Old tables and benches are getting harder and harder to find, and pricey!
What seems to work best for you at your QTH, commercial, homebuilt etc.?

3) Lighting - this is a big concern.
I prefer not to use noisy florescent lighting in the place, yes it's cheap and lights well, but it’s not RF friendly right?
Suggestions for good lighting, preferably variable for dimming during operating.
Thinking of the "eyeball" style of incandescent lights, but other ideas?

4) My builder may not understand, but I would like to have an abundance of outlets.
What is the standard placement, and how much of hassle is it to install 120/240 outlets in the same box? I’m not yet clear on the layout and would like to have a minimum of cord running about the place.

5) Other ideas, things to install, suggestions, etc.?

Other ideas, suggestions or input is wanted, really would like to make this without any regrets.

Thanks!

Here is a pix of the proposed building, the design of which was taken from my friend's barn

[W3SLK]

Damn Bruce, that's too nice for a shack

1) Running coax into the building, before the sheetrock goes up, what is the best method to run coax into the walls and ceiling?
I have heard of using PVC tubing in the walls/ceiling, others just run RG-213.
I do plan to have the contractor place a 4" pipe from the center of the utilities closet to the outside, capped on both ends, for future projects, like maybe a tower.
Your suggestions please?

PVC works pretty good. Its cheap, easy to work with, and can be cut to dimensions rather easily. For the super professional look, you can use EMT or maybe Panduit, (cable tray). I used RG-213 in the house and have a 2" piece of 316 Stainless, (like what we use at work) to transit to the outside.

2) Desk/bench, operating space.
Old tables and benches are getting harder and harder to find, and pricey!
What seems to work best for you at your QTH, commercial, homebuilt etc.?

What was very easy for me to do and I'm terrible when it comes to carpentry work, (just ask my wife), I used 2X4's and 1/2 plywood. I made sure I made the frame running with the grain. In other words I screwed the 2X4's on their sides. I used nothing but drywall screws and carriage bolts to put together. If you really want something cheap and super easy, a door sitting on saw horses is super simple. If you are a purist and want a bench, check the auctions in the local newspaper. I know New England is loaded with little work shops. They no doubt have work benches that they use. The auctions down here have them all the time.

3) Lighting - this is a big concern.
I prefer not to use noisy florescent lighting in the place, yes it's cheap and lights well, but it’s not RF friendly right?
Suggestions for good lighting, preferably variable for dimming during operating.
Thinking of the "eyeball" style of incandescent lights, but other ideas?

Florescents put a lot of lite for less bux. Spend the money and buy solid state ballasts with thermal switches in case they overheat. Unless you have bad contacts or a crappy ballast, you shouldn't get any problems, ( at least I didn't). Try an A-B test with the light on and then off. Make sure the fixture is grounded! It will make a difference and ballasts have been known to short to their cases. Touching the fixture can make it a memorable experience. By grounding, you will trip the thermal and help reduce any RFI.

) My builder may not understand, but I would like to have an abundance of outlets.
What is the standard placement, and how much of hassle is it to install 120/240 outlets in the same box? I’m not yet clear on the layout and would like to have a minimum of cord running about the place.

Usually your builder will have the electrical subcontracted out unless you do it yourself. Get yourself a good idea on what is going where. Talk with your builder about it. When he has the building framed. Take a sharpie or other suitable marker and mark on the studs where you want your outlets to be. I would use 4X4 boxes if I were putting two voltages in one box. Personally, I would put a separate box for each voltage. I'm not up on electrical code but I don't think it matters how far apart they are. I would check your local & BOCCA codes to be sure.  It would be a good idea to figure out what your current and voltage requirements are going to be and where. By that I mean, where do you want the 220/240 VAC, how many outlets on a single circuit. In my old shack, I had all my 100 watt rigs sharing an outlet strip, I knew I wouldn't be running them at the same time. My receivers were on a different circuit, the HN-500 had its own dedicated source as did the RCA transmitter and amplifier, (they both used 220). I would insist that your electrician use nothing less than a Square D or Cutler Hammer load center. Square D has become fairly resonable these days but their breakers tend to get a bit pricey, Cutler Hammer is pretty good across the board. Either one, their quality can't be beat. Don't fall victim to a Federal Pacific or any other cheap brand. With Square D or Cutler Hammer, you will be able to sleep at night.

) Other ideas, things to install, suggestions, etc.?

A toilet would be very nice especially during those cold New England winters. Unless of course you like the idea of a 'Steaming Holly Bush'

[W1RKW]

Bruce,
Definitely run conduit around various parts of the building before sheet rocking.  I did this not only for ham stuff but for other possible projects such as sound through out the house, Ethernet or the possibility of having to run an AC line somewhere else through the house. I have conduits from basement to attic at both ends of the house. A conduit that runs horizontally to each end of the house to both vertical conduits that runs through the ceiling of the first floor with an access panel at each junction point.  I also have an access panel at the center of the horizontal run in the front closet.

As far as the electrical goes that will depend on the building codes and the inspector as they may very from state to state and town to town.  But I don't see any reason why you couldn't run 110 and 220 in the same box. The outlets will be different so there shouldn't be confusion. Make sure you have enough current to your shack. Run a few dedicated 20amp circuits to the operating position if you can get away with it. I have two dedicated 110VAC 20amp circuits to my operating position. Each circuit is on an opposite leg of the service. It's more than enough for me and it is setup so I can get 220 if need be.  Lighting is also on its own circuit.  I actually use flourescent tubes in my position with no noise at all.  They're quiet as can be but if that's a concern for you how about halogen lighting?

Bob

[Tom WA3KLR]

Bruce,

When I re-roofed my pole barn I used a factory-painted sheet steel product.  I then put my 20-15-10 meter trap vertical on the ridge, works terrific.

It looks like you are planning on the "home" look.  But if you do go with a metal roof, yours would be big enough for operation down to 40 meters.

I run a coax from the barn to the house.  A 160 Zepp starts at the barn also - manual antenna tuner in the barn.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Plenty of good suggestions so far, Bruce. You and Glenn are really making me antsy to move so I can set up my dream station (space-wise, at least)

You've seen shots of my place, so you know it's an old home. One of the requirements the bank made was that it be rewired (guess they didn't like the idea of 7 outlets with 4 early breakers for 19 rooms?  ), so that part at least worked out. What I ended up doing though was splitting the 200 amp service into 2 panels, 100 amp for the house and 100 amp for the radio room. Not sure how this will fly with the next owners, but it works for me since there isn't much load in the rest of the place if I'm in the radio room. Of course, with a separate building it's a different story.

I'd suggest one thing right up front, though: once you get a layout you like, place the outlets higher up on the wall. Nothing bites more than having to crawl under the bench, desk, or table to plug or unplug a cord! You could go as far as to leave one of two down low for things like power supplies, but in this case I'd make them the exception and mount everything up between 3-4 feet off the floor.

Another thing I did was to mount the outlets right-side-up, or upside-down to the rest of the world. This places that third grounding pin at the top of the outlet, so if the plug wiggles loose enough for something like a wire or tool to slide behind it, you don't get a zorch across the two live pins. Picked this up when I was at IBM years ago, and plenty of folks still think I'm crazy for having my outlets 'upside-down'.

One excellent source for an operating surface is your local (?) state surplus store. I visit mine regularly and I've picked up two very nice, very heavy all metal tables to use. These things are industrial strength - legs bolt on easily, top is either formica or gray linoleum (ala Johnson Desk), usually one small drawer under the top. About 3 feet or so deep, maybe 5-6 feet across. The kind of thing that cost the government $500-$1k but resells for $35. Both of the ones I have are light gray finish with dark gray tops. Very basic, commercial looking things. Excellent for big iron.

Keep us posted.

[WA1GFZ]

Bruce I set the size of new QTH by standard lumber sizes. 38 feet by 42 will require 18 foot lumber. I went 36 by 42 so I could use standard 16 foot lumber for everything except the roof rafters. I started with salt box design until my brother saw the plans. His comment was do you really want to climb that high. I ended up staying with 1 floor and walk out basement. 1 peak was 30 feet and we were freaked siding it. Still better than having to do two peaks that high. 16 to 18 foot lumber will bring a good jump in price.

[w1guh]

Re: 110/220

I ran 220 into the shack for the 4x1...it was fun & easy.  'Course I wasn't hampered by permits, inspections, banks, etc.  And the main breaker box was only about 5' from the shack.

It's also good to have a panic switch where anyone can easily and safely kill alll the power in the shack.

Re: Operating surface, bench, etc.

I used to two-drawer file cabinets with a door laid across them.  

For shelving, those open wire shelves that have four poles with those pressfit shelf brackets (wish I could describe that better) are Very Good...they'll easily supprt Apaches, Valients, and stuff.  I made plywood shelves to go on them when I needed a flat surface.

Have fun!

Paul

[wa2zdy]

These are some things I had worked out for the hamshack I was building when divorce court interrupted . . .

For the operating surface, kitchen countertop is cheap.  Electrical recepticles about two feet apart and above the countertop.  I had plans for ethernet, phone, power and RF through conduit in the walls.  And yes, the emergency power cutoff at the front door is a great idea.

Another thought on the lighting I had the overhead lignting circuit totally apart from anything else in the shack.  Having the rig trip something and kill the lights just makes things very difficult.  I'd also consider emergency lighting "just in case."

Good luck, it sounds like a great project that will be very worthwhile when finished. 

[W1RKW]

<<
Another thing I did was to mount the outlets right-side-up, or upside-down to the rest of the world. This places that third grounding pin at the top of the outlet, so if the plug wiggles loose enough for something like a wire or tool to slide behind it, you don't get a zorch across the two live pins. Picked this up when I was at IBM years ago, and plenty of folks still think I'm crazy for having my outlets 'upside-down'.
>>

When we moved in the this QTH there were no outlets in the basement and that's where the shack was to be located as it is now.  I needed outlets for the shack and when I did the wiring I put the outlets with the ground pin up as well.  My brother suggested it for the very same reason.  I had never heard of this before but it made sense. And it worked out well for some of the cords that have right angle connectors, like the de-humidifier and my wifes treadmill. Some of these cords have the ground prong facing up and the cord pointing down. Without an upside down receptacle the cord would have to do a 180 as it hung on itself.

[W1UJR]

Wow, thanks guys, that was an overwhelming response!

Made an error in the size, it is 48 x 35, not 42, I was excited to discover even more room.

I like the conduit idea, and plan to bury at least two in the walls, one vertical and one horz. before the sheetrock covers them. 230 on a seperate breaker is a for sure, like the idea about seperate circuts and a "master kill or panic switch" - excellent idea there.

The bench ideas were great, esp Todd's suggestion.
In the past I have used newer desks but they soon bow under the weight of some boatanchors.
Nothing like good old solid wood -you know how tough it is to find a solid wood anything now, seems everything is compressed sawdust.

Still not sure on the light thing, florescents have always been noisy in my experience, good light but noise. In the commerical building where I have my business and hamshack, I find that I shut the lights off most of the time to keep the noise down. Building was built in 1994, so perhaps technology has improved somewhat since then. I like the idea of "zoned" lighting, being after to turn off the hamshack section while keeping other parts of downstairs on.

What about a common ground system in the concretre, copper, or some other tie point installed to use as a electrical and RF ground?

Anyone have any experience running balanced line for any length down inside walls?
I was thinking of bringing the feedline in at the peak and then using PVC to run into the 1st floor.
This might be more of a hassle than it is worth.

Last question, generator power.
I'd really like to install a generator for power backup, have propane on site already.
Any perference on good brands of the automatic units?
I'd like something kept outside on a concrete pad hardwired into the building and house.

Tnx - Bruce

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

W1GUH Sez: "For shelving, those open wire shelves that have four poles with those pressfit shelf brackets (wish I could describe that better) are Very Good...they'll easily supprt Apaches, Valients, and stuff.  I made plywood shelves to go on them when I needed a flat surface."

Such shelves are made by Metro.
http://www.metro.com/


W1UJR Sez: "Still not sure on the light thing, florescents have always been noisy in my experience, good light but noise. In the commerical building where I have my business and hamshack, I find that I shut the lights off most of the time to keep the noise down."

How much noise you get depends on how far from the building your antennas will be situated. At my last QTH, I had three fluorescent lights and had no noise problems. The antennas were 100+ feet from the shack. The shack also has aluminum siding and a tin roof, so some shielding was also taking place.

"What about a common ground system in the concretre, copper, or some other tie point installed to use as a electrical and RF ground?"


Just place your ground rod(s) before you pour the slab. Leave a few inches or so above the slab level to connect your station ground. Most preferable would be to place the rod right at the point the power is to enter the building. Then the power and station will have a common ground. You could also run heavy cable (#8 or similar) around the perimeter of the area for the slab and place rods connected to the cable at strategic points. Then, no matter where in the station equipment was located, you would never be far from a good ground. With all of the rods connected via a big cable, the entire station, including the power would float at the same level in the event of a nearby lightning strike. No current would flow through the ground system and back through any of the equipment due to uneven ground potentials.

[WA1GFZ]

Bruce,
Don't run feedline through inside walls if you plan to QRO it is a fire hazzard.
I almost set the house on fire twice.
Don't put wire in concrete, lightning will explode it. I was told by Nick
to put a halo ring around the outside. I used #8 and also sent a few runs through the yard. My building inspector also told me to connect it to the electrical panel gnd and water main both sides of the meter.
I always put gnd pin up in all outlets except the fridge because of the plug at the end of the cord.
Insulate......all you can it will pay for itself.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Bruce -

One note about copper and concrete: they do not mix. If you do decide to have an inside ground rod, be sure to place some PVC or something around it well below and above where the concrete can contact it. Just ask any contractor who has poured concrete around copper pipes before. 

I'm glad someone mentioned the panic switch. This is a very low tech lifesaver - if not yours then perhaps the unfortunate YL or someone who grabs you without first disconnecting the power. Get one with a big, red, side lever and post a large EMERGENCY POWER SHUT OFF sign next to it that can be read from across the room.

[WA1GFZ]

Actually you want to sleeve any pipe going through concrete. I put 6 inch PVC ovef the 4 inch PVC sewer line where it goes through the floor and outside wall. I did 3 inch PVC on the water coming in. this way you don't stress the pipe when the building settles.
BTW consider radient heat in the concrete floor it works great. Air temp can be a lot lower if your feet are warm. They make special plastic pipe to go in the concrete. I did radient in our solar room when  there is no sun. it is probably cheaper than unsightly baseboards. My building inspector suggested foam insulation on the inside walls where the outside is above grade. This way the heat isn't sucked out of the basement. I used 1 1/2 inch pink foam
2 X 8 foot panels on their sides just under the concrete floor. I put 100 feet of 1 inch PVC under the basement floor of the new place to act as a storage medium if I put solar panels on the roof.

[W1UJR]

BTW consider radient heat in the concrete floor it works great. Air temp can be a lot lower if your feet are warm. They make special plastic pipe to go in the concrete. I did radient in our solar room when  there is no sun. it is probably cheaper than unsightly baseboards. My building inspector suggested foam insulation on the inside walls where the outside is above grade. This way the heat isn't sucked out of the basement. I used 1 1/2 inch pink foam
2 X 8 foot panels on their sides just under the concrete floor. I put 100 feet of 1 inch PVC under the basement floor of the new place to act as a storage medium if I put solar panels on the roof.

Right on Frank, radiant heat rocks.
Thats what I asked for in the barn, radiant downstairs, will be baseboard upstairs.

My house, and old 1860s cape - renovated by the same builder as the barn, has radiant heat in the floor. Wonderful, warm and toasty! No baseboards, no dust from forced hot air, radiant is the way to go!

[WA1GFZ]

Bruce
my passive solar has 35 yards of rock and concrete for storage and 130 square feet of glass facing south. room is 14 by 30 feet. When the sun is out we are in shorts all winter.