USE IT OR LOSE IT!!!!

[Pete, WA2CWA]

WA2CWA said:

ANYONE KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?

Ok, I'll bite. Beef jerky time? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnHBrocELP4

TALK TO THE CAT - SHE KNOWS

[KD1SH]

   While I'm a diehard traditionalist in many regards, I'm cool with this. Some might argue that it flirts with "broadcasting," which is clearly illegal, but the difference in this case is one of intent. Whether you call CQ over and over for sixty seconds or pass the same amount of time expounding on a subject that might incite conversation, your goal is essentially the same. The latter approach is both a bit more creative and a bit less impersonal. Of course, if everyone were to replace the more conventional CQ method with this improvisational tactic, those operators who might desire to stand out in the crowd would then be forced to revert to the traditional approach.

I've noticed, especially on 75 meter AM, instead of CQ, that some amateurs now just key the transmitter and randomly engage in mindless rambling for "x" minutes and then drop the carrier to see who they have sucked in.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

  While I'm a diehard traditionalist in many regards, I'm cool with this. Some might argue that it flirts with "broadcasting," which is clearly illegal, but the difference in this case is one of intent. Whether you call CQ over and over for sixty seconds or pass the same amount of time expounding on a subject that might incite conversation, your goal is essentially the same. The latter approach is both a bit more creative and a bit less impersonal. Of course, if everyone were to replace the more conventional CQ method with this improvisational tactic, those operators who might desire to stand out in the crowd would then be forced to revert to the traditional approach.

I've noticed, especially on 75 meter AM, instead of CQ, that some amateurs now just key the transmitter and randomly engage in mindless rambling for "x" minutes and then drop the carrier to see who they have sucked in.

It isn't flirting, it is "one-way broadcasting" and rambling on for a bunch of minutes, under the existing rules, it is considered illegal. "Intent" isn't a valid reason or excuse. Fortunately, most of this stuff hangs in the "ghetto" and many of us now operate AM in other parts of the 80/75 meter band and, of course, other bands entirely.

"Birds of a feather flock together" is sometimes a reasonable activities tag for the 75 meter AM ghetto.

[N1BCG]

It isn't flirting, it is "one-way broadcasting" and rambling on for a bunch of minutes, under the existing rules, it is considered illegal.

Definitions are important. Broadcast transmissions end with no expectation of a response from another station and are intended as unidirectional communications. Any transmission which ends with the anticipation or expectation of a response is not broadcasting.

[KD1SH]

   Intent is not only a valid consideration, it's crucial in a great number of concerns, both legal and moral. Legal cases, both civil and criminal, very often hinge entirely and completely upon that word. In a libel case, for example, where a media figure is accused of libeling, say, a political figure, the prosecution is most often obliged to prove malicious intent. Legal adjudication throughout our history has frequently not only considered "intent," but has in fact hinged entirely upon it. That little word, in jurisprudence, is our buffer against the "letter of the law."
   Calling CQ is no less "broadcasting" than the brief (and obviously they should be reasonably brief) improvisational dissertations we're discussing, since the intent (there's that word again) is entirely the same. If the operator ignored all responses and simply continued either calling CQ in the traditional way, or continued his one-way exposition, it would be broadcasting, but I have yet to hear anyone do that. I suspect you'd be hard-pressed to find any language in Part 97 that clearly defines exactly what an operator should say to incite conversation, but to accomplish what would appear to be your "intent," I suggest the FCC add something like this:
   "It is important for all amateurs to remember that amateur radio is very serious business, and at no point whatsoever should an amateur's activities give the overt appearance of being enjoyable, lighthearted, or in any way entertaining. The responsible amateur will enter his operating facility with a stern, business-like attitude, proceed to engage in stern, no-nonsense communications and, when leaving the operating facility, maintain a stern visage so as not to inadvertently give the impression to others that any of his preceding activities were enjoyable."
   Responsible operators, to sufficiently differentiate themselves from the "ghetto" operators, might want to insert steel-wool pads into their under-garments, spread a few thumbtacks on their favorite operating chairs, and perhaps suck on a lemon while operating. Remember, there's nothing funny about amateur radio.

It isn't flirting, it is "one-way broadcasting" and rambling on for a bunch of minutes, under the existing rules, it is considered illegal. "Intent" isn't a valid reason or excuse. Fortunately, most of this stuff hangs in the "ghetto" and many of us now operate AM in other parts of the 80/75 meter band and, of course, other bands entirely.

"Birds of a feather flock together" is sometimes a reasonable activities tag for the 75 meter AM ghetto.

[W1ITT]

Certainly definitions are indeed important, but Rules and Regs are what counts first.  97.111 and 97.113 seem to be pertinent.  The description in 97.111 (b) (1) would seem to preclude some of the long buzzardly self indulgent one-way transmissions that I have heard. The Rule uses the word "brief".  It takes quite a leap of imagination to conclude otherwise.  And, not that SWLing is as popular as it was in decades gone by, it makes Amateur Radio seem trivial and inane.
The discussion is probably moot as we don't seem to have an FCC that is concerned with much except the most egregious violations, and even the ARRL's much vaunted Volunteer Monitor service hasn't posted an update in close to a year and a half.  
73 de Norm W1ITT

[KD1SH]

   Yes, "brief" would be the operative word, rather than specifically addressing content; assuming of course that the content was not profane or needlessly vulgar.

Certainly definitions are indeed important, but Rules and Regs are what counts first.  97.111 and 97.113 seem to be pertinent.  The description in 97.111 (b) (1) would seem to preclude some of the long buzzardly self indulgent one-way transmissions that I have heard. The Rule uses the word "brief".  It takes quite a leap of imagination to conclude otherwise.  And, not that SWLing is as popular as it was in decades gone by, it makes Amateur Radio seem trivial and inane.
The discussion is probably moot as we don't seem to have an FCC that is concerned with much except the most egregious violations, and even the ARRL's much vaunted Volunteer Monitor service hasn't posted an update in close to a year and a half.  
73 de Norm W1ITT

[KA3EKH]

Man, you all are some smart people. Think my IQ may have gone up a point or two just reading this stuff! As far as the 75 Meter AM Ghetto stuff goes just got to drag the funk out "Don't you know that its true that for me and for you the world is a ghetto".
Now just need to tie in Cisco Kid and my life will be complete.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Man, you all are some smart people. Think my IQ may have gone up a point or two just reading this stuff! As far as the 75 Meter AM Ghetto stuff goes just got to drag the funk out "Don't you know that its true that for me and for you the world is a ghetto".
Now just need to tie in Cisco Kid and my life will be complete.

"The Cisco Kid" was Track 1 of the Album, "The World is a Ghetto"
followed by Track 2, "Where Was You At" (person who titled this song and track knew his "English"  )
and Track 5 was "The World is a Ghetto".

[Pete, WA2CWA]

One of the things that I've noticed over the last several years in the AM Ghetto is amateurs who aspire to be like "talk show broadcasters" and seem to actively solicit a listening audience. They obviously seem to desire the fame and notoriety at the expense of the amateur radio hobby.

[KA3EKH]

You Da Man! Was wondering how many would get the reference.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

You Da Man! Was wondering how many would get the reference.

It came to mind when I was typing the earlier response, a line lyric from another song:
"Come on, feet, start moving"
In 1968/69 there wasn't club in Jersey that had a rock band that didn't sing and play this song at least several times during the activities. It was a great dance tune if you knew how to dance to it and impress the women.

And, the singer had a connection to your reference.

[KD1SH]

   I won't entirely disagree with that, but the "at the expense of the amateur radio hobby" thing, not so much. One could likewise make the case that contesting (what the League calls "radio sport") harms the hobby. Likewise for FT8, WebSDR's, DX spotting websites, and even ready-made "plastic" radios (real hams build their own stuff, don't they?). Those amateurs of the "the amateur is progressive" school of thought, mostly SSB'ers, have always felt that our insistence on using our antiquated AM harms the hobby.
   Are those guys whose overriding ambition is to hit the top of the contest scores not also seeking fame and notoriety? Does what they do contribute in a positive way to the hobby? I see little difference between those guys and the guys who try to take their audio beyond communications audio; both are trying to stand out in the crowd. They aren't soliciting a listening audience; they're soliciting participants in the conversation.
   Honesty, if I were not a ham, and happened to tune my receiver to 75 meters and heard two distinct groups in QSO, one in which the operators had great sounding audio, attempted to speak well (as a broadcaster might), and the conversation was lively and engaging; while in the other QSO the operators sounded and spoke like air traffic controllers, with pinched audio and clipped, terse sentences, the former would be vastly more likely to motivate me to get my ham license.

One of the things that I've noticed over the last several years in the AM Ghetto is amateurs who aspire to be like "talk show broadcasters" and seem to actively solicit a listening audience. They obviously seem to desire the fame and notoriety at the expense of the amateur radio hobby.

[Steve - K4HX]

Geez. Just call CQ. It ain't that hard.

[WBear2GCR]

THE PROBLEM is that here, in this forum, there are a handful out of HUNDREDS of actual
members (I expect so) that have posted in this thread...

...same issue on-the-air.

And, no, imho, there is marginal activity and it has been going down, not up...

                _-_-

[Steve - K4HX]

Another thing to consider is that activity in general on 80/75 meters is far less than it was 20 years ago and even more so compared to 30 years ago. Many AMers wouldn't even bother to get on the air until after midnight back in the 80s to avoid intense QRM.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Looking the overall list of members from, I guess, day 1: 3090.
Of those, 1280 have posted 1 time or more.
Of those 1280, there were 210 that only post 1 time.
So, with the given numbers, 1890 members have never post throughout the time from when they signed up.

Don't really know what all that means much less really care.

Probably: some lost interest, some moved on, some are dead, some were drive buys, some just post in For Sale and Wanted, some don't like to put stuff in print, some are shy, some think big brother is watching, and probably a bunch of other reasons why they have never post.

I've noticed even from my site, people set up a profile for whatever reason, but never participate in any activity (maybe they think they will get a free gift if they sign up )

[Pete, WA2CWA]

As pointed out, 75 meter AM activity has really dropped from 80's, 90's and into the early 2000's.
Unfortunately a lot of the dye-in-the wool AM operators that were around for decades have passed on leaving a definite void in overall, and especially late night AM activity. If you weren't around back then, you missed a lot.

Bear mentioned AM nets and he's correct. There are a number of participants in these nets and after the net closes, these participants disappear until the next net.

There are a number of weekly and monthly AM nets with some of the most boring dialog that one can imagine.  I can't imagine participating in maybe a 2 hour net and getting to transmit twice and listen to participants talk about, "washing the dog", "washing windows", "finding and picking up 1/8 inch steel balls that fell on the basement floor", "smartphone takes pictures sideways", etc.

Maybe, rather the diddling with the conventional AM mode, the smart guys should apply their efforts into bringing high quality digital AM mode into the amateur mainstream.

[W1ITT]

It's not just AM activity that's declining.  I enjoy DXing on 160 and 80m SSB and CW.  It generally takes a big antenna and QRO to achieve consistent results.  In the last decade the number of "tall ship" stations has dwindled and the DX windows are quite underpopulated even though the band is open.  The ARRL SSB DX contest a week or so ago showed scant activity in the 80m DX watering holes.  Just a few years ago there was a seemingly endless supply of European stations to troll through.  As activity breeds more activity, lack of action feeds on itself.  I suspect that many of the "tall ship" guys have just gotten old and died or were unable to get the aerial back up after it came down.  And I suspect it's the same with AM.  We hear the IC7300s on end-fed half wave antennas strung out to the apple tree but few of the big guys show up running good power and antennas in the stratosphere.
It seems that many hams, for whatever reason, are happy to plink along with low power FT8 and call it a day.  Regardless of other band activity, that segment most always sees activity.  To each his own, if it makes him happy.  But Saturday night on 75m is a far cry from the days past when you needed a reservation to get on the band.  It would be fun if one evening a week the tall ships could get on the air and boil the ionosphere for a while.  But we'd never agree on which night to choose.
73 de Norm W1ITT

[KD1SH]

   I surely did miss a lot. I didn't become a licensed amateur until 1993, and didn't get into AM until 2018. A lot of good water had long gone under the bridge by then.
   Nets are great for encouraging people to get on the air, but they're quick energy...not long lasting...like burning pine in your wood stove or drinking sugary energy drinks; they provide little long-term nutrition.
   Net organizers face a bit of a conundrum; without a prearranged topic the content is mostly stream-of-consciousness rambling, but prearranged topics must be uncontroversial and avoid being potentially offensive. Choosing current politics as a net topic would probably attract some action, but it doesn't 't require much imagination to visualize the shoe-polish show that would result.
   Encouraging technical innovation...high quality "digital" AM...could be promising, but so far, unfortunately, SDR's; Class-E rigs; and modern solid state rigs like the K7DYY have yet to inspire increased activity. The Class-E portion of this forum, in fact, has been disappointingly quiet.
   This ennui that afflicts AM, of course, plagues all of amateur radio, and I don't know what will change it. Our hobby is a great one, but it's hard to compete with today's short attention spans, video gaming, cell phones, YouTube videos, and reality tv.

As pointed out, 75 meter AM activity has really dropped from 80's, 90's and into the early 2000's.
Unfortunately a lot of the dye-in-the wool AM operators that were around for decades have passed on leaving a definite void in overall, and especially late night AM activity. If you weren't around back then, you missed a lot.

Bear mentioned AM nets and he's correct. There are a number of participants in these nets and after the net closes, these participants disappear until the next net.

There are a number of weekly and monthly AM nets with some of the most boring dialog that one can imagine.  I can't imagine participating in maybe a 2 hour net and getting to transmit twice and listen to participants talk about, "washing the dog", "washing windows", "finding and picking up 1/8 inch steel balls that fell on the basement floor", "smartphone takes pictures sideways", etc.

Maybe, rather the diddling with the conventional AM mode, the smart guys should apply their efforts into bringing high quality digital AM mode into the amateur mainstream.

[KD1SH]

   It's not just HF; the VHF/UHF bands are growing quiet, too. I used to participate in VHF/UHF contests back in the 90's, and although I've largely lost interest, when I listen in on those events I don't hear nearly as much activity these days.

It's not just AM activity that's declining.  I enjoy DXing on 160 and 80m SSB and CW.  It generally takes a big antenna and QRO to achieve consistent results.  In the last decade the number of "tall ship" stations has dwindled and the DX windows are quite underpopulated even though the band is open.  The ARRL SSB DX contest a week or so ago showed scant activity in the 80m DX watering holes.  Just a few years ago there was a seemingly endless supply of European stations to troll through.  As activity breeds more activity, lack of action feeds on itself.  I suspect that many of the "tall ship" guys have just gotten old and died or were unable to get the aerial back up after it came down.  And I suspect it's the same with AM.  We hear the IC7300s on end-fed half wave antennas strung out to the apple tree but few of the big guys show up running good power and antennas in the stratosphere.
It seems that many hams, for whatever reason, are happy to plink along with low power FT8 and call it a day.  Regardless of other band activity, that segment most always sees activity.  To each his own, if it makes him happy.  But Saturday night on 75m is a far cry from the days past when you needed a reservation to get on the band.  It would be fun if one evening a week the tall ships could get on the air and boil the ionosphere for a while.  But we'd never agree on which night to choose.
73 de Norm W1ITT

[Pete, WA2CWA]

  It's not just HF; the VHF/UHF bands are growing quiet, too. I used to participate in VHF/UHF contests back in the 90's, and although I've largely lost interest, when I listen in on those events I don't hear nearly as much activity these days.

It seems the majority of  the VHF/UHF activity for the last several years has been mainly on FT8 even when there are good band openings to support SSB and CW.

Either the current class of  amateurs are now extremely lazy (don't have to talk just look at a screen) or they don't have the active amateur radio spirit of their predecessors.

Give me an IC-7300 or equivalent and a roll of wire and I'm ready to burn up the airwaves  

[KD1SH]

   Yes, when six meters opens up, a look at the activity on dxmaps.com reveals that almost all of the contacts displayed are via FT-8. It's still a good indicator to phone and CW ops as to where the signals are going, but it's disappointing.
   I don't know much about FT-8 (and I'd prefer to keep it that way) but from what I understand, it can be at least partially automated, so that the operator can set up his computer to do his "DX'ing" for him, and go do something else while working toward DXCC.

It seems the majority of  the VHF/UHF activity for the last several years has been mainly on FT8 even when there are good band openings to support SSB and CW.
Either the current class of  amateurs are now extremely lazy (don't have to talk just look at a screen) or they don't have the active amateur radio spirit of their predecessors.
Give me an IC-7300 or equivalent and a roll of wire and I'm ready to burn up the airwaves  

[Opcom]

A Roman Centurion walks up to the bar and says, "I'll have a martinus."
"Martinus?" the bartender asks, "Don't you mean martini?"
The Centurion replies, "If I'd wanted more than one, I would have ordered more than one!"
(Latin grammar joke)

In Catholic High School, the cafeteria motto was "Fidem Scit".

As far as other modes popping up 'on top of' an AM QSO in progress, timeless advice has been offered here, such as "turn up the wick", and "strap". 

If the others are habitually there first, then the VFO is the right thing to use. It's musical chairs or cake-walk.
With many SDR today having a spectrum display it ought be very easy to find an AM signal wherever it is.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I always seem to pick a fun time to return.... 

What's the saying? Everything that is old is new again? We had this same discussion a decade or two back. The only difference now is that there are fewer of us with respect to AM or other 'traditional' modes. The bands are indeed growing quiet.

As Steve said - when in doubt, call CQ! Activity begets activity. Problem here is, as in the past, there are always a few 'spark plugs' who regularly operate and many, many more 'followers' who wait for others to do the work. I recall clearly some years back one of the regular members here saying 'I'm not very good at calling CQ, I'd just rather wait and let you guys get things going then I'll join in'. Translation: you guys get the party going so I can have fun at my leisure/whenever I feel like turning on the radio. Nets (aka Directed Roundtables) are a perfect example of this.

Pete's points are very good also. And sadly, his references to newer modes point right back to my previous example. Same thing happens in contests - a few AMers complaining about rude contesters, but *few* AMers on the air most days to even light up much spectrum. Our lives, family obligations, work, etc change along the way as well, all affecting our available free time.

I won't even get into the imaginary AM-operating-window nonsense.

So yes - we're aging out numbers-wise, but overall it's more a case of the same old apathy. The ones who like being on the air regularly are, the ones who like being online are, and the song remains the same - there's just less music.