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Author Topic: thoughts on adding a 20m resonant dipole to a 125' open fed doublet?  (Read 2952 times)
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kc1gtk
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« on: May 08, 2021, 11:10:52 PM »

Was thinking about adding a resonant 20m element below my 125' doublet to try to overcome the lobes and nulls that are on 20m . Like adding a fan arrangement to the center of the top wire. so it would be like a hybred doublet. I feed it now with open line and no baluns, feed runs right to the balanced tuner.

Any one tried this?

73
Paul
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WD8BIL
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2021, 08:22:05 AM »

Why? What's your thinking here. That doublet should tune 20M and work quite well as it is.
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K1JJ
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2021, 12:05:36 PM »

Was thinking about adding a resonant 20m element below my 125' doublet to try to overcome the lobes and nulls that are on 20m . Like adding a fan arrangement to the center of the top wire. so it would be like a hybred doublet. I feed it now with open line and no baluns, feed runs right to the balanced tuner.

Any one tried this?

73
Paul


Hi Paul,

Roughly, an open-wire fed 125' dipole tuned up on 20M is "four half waves out of phase" which will be a low impedance feed and produce a 4 lobe cloverleaf pattern. (undesirable large nulls broadside)   Normally a 1/2 wave dipole bi-directional pattern would have large lobes broadside.  So, you desire the 20M operation to look more like a single standard 20M dipole.

It's all about covering our best directions with fixed antennas. Here in CT, NE/SW is my favored orientations for fixed antennas.

So what you are axing is if by adding a  33' dipole to the feedpoint of the 125' dipole will the 33' dipole "hog" the power from the low impedance 125' dipole and produce the desired 2 lobe bi-directional pattern on 20M?   I honestly don't know how clean the pattern will become considering both dipoles are low impedance fed - and there is a large reactive component introduced by the 125' dipole.

You will need to model it on EZNEC/ NEC4 to see just what is happening on 20M with that config.  It is a good idea to consider.  I would model it for you but unfortunately my new computer does not have NEC4 installed yet. Maybe someone here can do it and see if it is worth the effort to add the 20M legs.  

I usually recommend separate 1/2 wave dipoles to solve the pattern problem, but maybe this will work well enough to fill in that large set of 20M broadside nulls for you.


Another solution:  Use the exisiting 125' OWL dipole for  75M and 40M only. Then make up a new 20M OWL dipole (and custom tuner) and use it only for 20, 15 and 10M.   You now can cover 75-10M with reasonably clean bi-directional broadside patterns on all bands.      To cover 160M, a series fed config of the 125' dipole will work and be within a few dB of a regular dipole if you use heavy-duty materials for both the tuner and dipole.  

Or for 160M, tie the openwire feeders together to end feed the open wire. The 125' dipole against ground will become a capacity hat.  The system will then have some desirable vertical and horizontal components for general AM coverage assuming you lay down some ground radials to work against.   (system is now a vertical 'T' for 160M)     Verticals work especially well on 160M when set up right.


T
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R. Fry SWL
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2021, 04:09:34 AM »

Was thinking about adding a resonant 20m element below my 125' doublet to try to overcome the lobes and nulls that are on 20m. ... Any one tried this?

Below is a NEC4.2 study of one possibility for this project, based on the assumptions seen there.

The patterns are shown for an elevation angle of 12°, which is in the range useful for good, single-hop "DX" coverage (given suitable propagation conditions).

The component values for the matching network modeled in the study are highlighted at the lower left, in green.

The nulls at the cardinal angles are filled quite a bit better than the other four azimuth nulls, but a configuration something like this layout might be acceptable...?

.
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K1JJ
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2021, 11:45:01 AM »


The nulls at the cardinal angles are filled quite a bit better than the other four azimuth nulls, but a configuration something like this layout might be acceptable...?




Yes, R. Fry -  a  good job modeling this idea with Nec4.2.  Thanks.

EDIT: My error - as corrected below, at 270/90 degrees, the 20M enhancement is NOT a good fix for broadside nulls as tested on NEC4.2.

I would still consider using a separate 20M OWL dipole  with a separate tuner for 20-10M and a 75M OWL dipole with its own tuner for 160-40M.   This would give ~ clean figure 8 dipole patterns for each band  for 160-10M.

T
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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed.  Easily done in DSP.

Wise Words : "I'm as old as I've ever been... and I'm as young as I'll ever be."

There's nothing like an old dog.
R. Fry SWL
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2021, 12:22:42 PM »


Actually, I modeled the dipole conductors on the +/- Y axis (0°-180°).

The broadside directions from the dipoles lie +/-90° from that.
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K1JJ
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2021, 12:49:06 PM »


Actually, I modeled the dipole conductors on the +/- Y axis (0°-180°).

The broadside directions from the dipoles lie +/-90° from that.



OK I see... the 20M pattern threw me off.  Back to the old octopus. So it's not much of an enhancement.  The 20M broadside composite is down considerably using  270/90 degrees.  Works better for filling in the ends, not broadside.  So it makes a stronger reason to run separate 75M OWL and 20M OWL dipoles to cover the bands..

T
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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed.  Easily done in DSP.

Wise Words : "I'm as old as I've ever been... and I'm as young as I'll ever be."

There's nothing like an old dog.
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