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cost of passive voice LPFs not bad, not cheap tho'




 
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Author Topic: cost of passive voice LPFs not bad, not cheap tho'  (Read 1896 times)
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Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« on: February 06, 2018, 07:23:04 PM »

Did some CAD. Based on the old 'Bonadio' speech LPF but some values simplified and all items found the cheapest.


* filterresponse.png (21.89 KB, 837x839 - viewed 92 times.)

* filterschematic.png (13.78 KB, 835x447 - viewed 122 times.)
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 07:29:59 PM »

Nice! What's the insertion loss at 1kHz? That would go well after the limiter/clipper I'm putting together.

It would be handy to see variants for other bandwidths, and as a bonus, a parts/price list assuming all the components can be sourced from one distributor (saves shipping charges).
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2018, 07:31:46 PM »

ask and ye shal..
board 6x6 inch. the coils are critical as to dc resistance. It has to be low or the response suffers.
It is not required to use a board, just would make it neater. No board will be ordered anyway until a breadboard test is done.

attenuation:  dBv
0.14 dB @ 10 Hz
0.15 dB @ 100 Hz
0.2 dB @ 1000 Hz
0.23 dB @ 2000 Hz
0.3 dB @ 2500 Hz
0.45 dB @ 3000 Hz
0.87 dB @ 3330 Hz
03 dB @ 3477 Hz
06 dB @ 3539 Hz
09 dB @ 3584 Hz
12 dB @ 3629 Hz
18 dB @ 3713 Hz
24 dB @ 3793 Hz
30 dB @ 3865 Hz
36 dB @ 3927 Hz
42 dB @ 3975 Hz
47 dB @ 4000 Hz
max atten:
46.8 dB @ 4650 Hz


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* filterPCBquote.png (8.53 KB, 402x367 - viewed 80 times.)
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2018, 07:41:01 PM »

Boy that was fast! Custom boards are always going to be $$ so that's no surprise. Sure makes me appreciate the Radio Shack project boards.

Lots to think about here...thanks!
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2018, 08:06:35 PM »

For that price, buy a CNC and never pay the outrageous 'setup' fee again.

I did.

--Shane
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2018, 08:10:06 PM »

What's the impulse response?
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 09:03:25 PM »

It took a few hours to do this. Mostly learning the program's limitations. For example, you can't globally 'change all pads to dimensions xyz', etc. However once the board is laid out, circuit value changes are simple enough. The original Bonadio's filters used odd values, taking 3 or 4 caps per 'capacitor', I cut it to two. It also uses odd inductances which are not off the shelf, I chose some that are. All 10mH, using three in series for 30mH, etc. Defilement of that 'perfect' design didn't hurt anything by more than 1dB. So maybe a filter design program using the same basic schematic could be made for any use. That is up to others to do. I would not mind zipping and posting the cad files and all info, with the understanding that the board has not been made or tested, perhaps some holes are too small, but I did make a sincere effort especially concerning the inductors, for which a special ccustom footptint had to be made - was easy. BTW it cost $250+ to make 'just one'.

The green picture is the bottom side/solder side. There is also a full coverage ground plane on top. Was thinking of RF avoidance.

The huge 600mA inductors are not so the thing can sit in the 500 Ohm line between a 10W speech and and a class B driver transformer. They are for low DC resistance. Above 7 Ohms in this circuit and the curve gets less efficient.

That said, it's a function of in/out impedance -vs- inductor/capacitor series resistance. A filter made for 10K Ohms could well use small SMD coils with low L and higher R. Perhaps a 500 Ohm to 10K transformer at each end could enable a board to be made with 10K in and out impedances, with the smaller parts. As an example, look at Kahn's rotator.

If I redo it, after any input is all collected, I might want to make a board design that would be long and narrow so it could fit behind a 19" panel, or someone else might.

I posted this as a possibility only, but if 20 of us went in, took the risk, after it was proven on a breadboard, and after the layout got a very serious review (hah like at work, how tedious but necessary) the final cost would not be so bad. Could silkscreen the AMFone url on it.

Going farther, The pre-emphasis curves could be applied before this. I explored passive networks but they are extremely lossy, so an active circuit would be needed. Care must be taken not to give so much pre-emphasis that the good attenuation at 4KHz suffers.

One thing noticed in LTspice is that it can be driven from a 1 Ohm or 500 Ohm source no matter to the filter shape, and the input Z changes with frequency so the signal source should be well regulated, but the output needs terminated halfway decently.

On that note, Two or more of these circuits can be put in series, to gain much steeper dB/octave cut at the same frequency without much loss in the pass band, as long as a 500 Ohm network is placed between sections, and that will cause a few dB loss if it is the typical 3-resistor setup. The dB responses just add. One of these= -47dB@4000Hz, two= -94dB@4000Hz, etc. So pre-emphasize away!

Just more food for thought.


@ Shane, how would a mill help? I guess hole-drilling, but how are the boards made with plated through holes at home? I am not familiar with making this kind of nice board, this process, just the old ink etch and drill.

@ Steve, No idea what the impulse response is. Untested. The LTspice file is attached as .TXT, just rename to .ASC  I might get to it, what pulse parameters did you have in mind?

* bonadio speech filter practical values.txt (5.48 KB - downloaded 22 times.)

* filtertopside.png (47.27 KB, 857x859 - viewed 55 times.)
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2018, 10:18:55 PM »

That filter has quite a sharp cutoff. Impressive.

A pulse replicating a 3 kHz clipped waveform could be instructive. I've done this on a few passive LC filters used after clippers in amateur radio transmitters. There was usually a fair amount of overshoot which would reduce, or eliminate the effectiveness of the clipper. Just something to think about.
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2018, 10:20:34 AM »

Pat,

It won't plate through holes, nor will it flow them.  You have to do that yourself.  I haven't done a ton of boards, but hasn't been a problem thus far.

I suppose, if I where using them commercially, I'd let the end users know.  I just make sure both sides (pads) have solder on them.

I don't believe 'old school etching' would address the plated holes either.....?

Anywho, the technology is there, and for less than 400 bucks and a couple evenings of assembly time, you can have a CNC that will etch up to 6x9 inch boards, as well as has the capabilities for up to a 10 Watt laser for stainless, etc.

Next I want a 3d printer.  Want to print my own polystyrene caps! Lol.  Just cuz I could!

--Shane
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 12:31:43 AM »

I'll see about the 3KHz pulsed signal at some point. Bonadio was not clear about clipping that I know of, but he liked pre-emphasis and then to use the filter (wish I had the pre-emphasis schematic of his from the "EAM" article just to see what was done).

I didn't really like the square board. Also the footprints of the coils were off almost a mm, so that was redone for this re-do, which is a board about 13"x2". unused caps etc were eliminated. Nothing was corrected on the previous 6x6" board.












* long board layouts.png (50.82 KB, 1637x556 - viewed 50 times.)

* voice_audio_filter_long_expresspcb.png (33.82 KB, 1637x621 - viewed 52 times.)
* new bom and changes.txt (2.84 KB - downloaded 24 times.)
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2018, 01:16:22 AM »

,


* pulse1.png (88.04 KB, 1304x1003 - viewed 60 times.)
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2018, 06:49:05 AM »

Impulse response.

Itís a passive network of RCL components.
As known, such networks are integrators slowing down or averaging incoming incoming transients. The very act of limiting higher frequencies displays this.

I can do the math for a simple integrator but for this assemblage, um uh, Iíll leave that as an excercise for others.  Grin

Hey back to the future TIM wars, donícha know.
Those were somewhat latter than the music power wars.
Remember ďstraight wire with gain?Ē Yeah, that was for active devices.

A pulse replicating a 3kHz clipped waveform is a square wave; betcha it doesnít come out square.  For that matter getting a perfect real world square wave input is impossible except within proscribed limits. Mathamatically, of course easy and precise if you can handle infinity so to speak. So an impulse response is already imbedded in a good CAD program, by mathematical construct. It should be back trackable.  Even in the slow gain loss, lower frequency portion of the passband, you can see a dA/df (differential gain/d freq.) relationship.  The submitted table clearly shows this. Reduce it to loss/decade or octave, logarithmically if desired from 10 to 3k Hz.
This can be directly correlated to impulse loss as a function of frequency for the operative part of this filter.

There, Iíve trotted out about all I know to sound erudite.  Grin

It sure is a nice sharp cutoff filter though. Very nice.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 09:18:37 PM »

I think it's a good design, the PCB Any suggestions?
I can't afford to have the boards made and if anything will have to do a point to point build.
- but may as well leave a nice item for others. I like layout of little things like this, it's fun.
the setup fee per order is more or less fixed. The rest is the square area of PCB.


* filterPCBquote-long board.png (8.55 KB, 402x367 - viewed 44 times.)
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 09:58:31 PM »

There is some ringing at about 3.3KHz when a 300Hz square wave is input.
The square wave rise/fall time is 100us. Previously it was 0.1us. Did not make much difference but is more realistic.

Is that ringing going to be an issue? I sorta doubt it, as long as it is inside the passband.


* pulse300Hz.png (23.58 KB, 1060x455 - viewed 42 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 08:33:28 AM »

Your graph shows both input square wave and output ringing wave at .0033 s periods for your 300Hz.  I see it so far. Is the 3.3 KHz ringing your talking about from the period between crests on the superimposed damped waveform? Oh, think I answered my own question. Looks like about 1/10 period of the base wave.

And the 3.3 KHz is Inside the filter passband (maybe 3dB down or so) but much smaller.  Almost has to be a little harshly audible unless a fairly exact harmonic of the base 300Hz or itís of very low amplitude.

Does the filter show ringing at just 300 Hz input or did you sweep it and found only this one case or at even multiples of 300, etc. ?

For our purposes, perhaps lesser order, less bricky filters (if weíre going the all passive design route) would be more pleasing sounding. .. not that I can hear much difference any more.  Most of the distortion I hear these days is between the stirrups and the stapes deterioration or some such.  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 09:39:03 AM »

I think it's a good design, the PCB Any suggestions?
I can't afford to have the boards made and if anything will have to do a point to point build.
- but may as well leave a nice item for others. I like layout of little things like this, it's fun.
the setup fee per order is more or less fixed. The rest is the square area of PCB.

If the cost from ExpressPCB is too much, try what I did. There are some free PCB design programs such as KiCad or DIPTrace that produce Industry standard Gerber file output. Then upload the files to an overseas PCB house like allpcb.com, easyeda.com or jlcpcb.com. These all make full double-sided plated thru hole boards with solder mask and silk screen for dirt cheap. Extremely high quality and less than a week turnaround to your door.

An example: I ordered five 4" x 6" boards from allpcb.com on a Sunday evening, had to re-submit on Monday evening because I forgot to include the NC drill file. The boards were already in DHL's hands Wednesday morning and delivered to me on Saturday afternoon. The cost? $33 + $1.44 PayPal fee. That includes all setup fees. Smaller boards are even cheaper. And they sent me 8 boards instead of the 5 I ordered. This is typical!

Yes, you have to learn a bit more complicated program than the EasyPCB program, but you get industry standard Gerber files and a much lower cost. The quality is incredible.

August KG7BZ
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 02:08:13 AM »

Your graph shows both input square wave and output ringing wave at .0033 s periods for your 300Hz.  I see it so far. Is the 3.3 KHz ringing your talking about from the period between crests on the superimposed damped waveform? Oh, think I answered my own question. Looks like about 1/10 period of the base wave.

And the 3.3 KHz is Inside the filter passband (maybe 3dB down or so) but much smaller.  Almost has to be a little harshly audible unless a fairly exact harmonic of the base 300Hz or itís of very low amplitude.

Does the filter show ringing at just 300 Hz input or did you sweep it and found only this one case or at even multiples of 300, etc. ?

For our purposes, perhaps lesser order, less bricky filters (if weíre going the all passive design route) would be more pleasing sounding. .. not that I can hear much difference any more.  Most of the distortion I hear these days is between the stirrups and the stapes deterioration or some such.  Grin

I just chose 300Hz randomly because the simulation at 3KHz seemed too good to be true.. The ringing period is as you say, in the passband. it's at the high end of it.
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 05:03:58 AM »

consider adding high value resistors across C5 C6 and C7 .... I am not a filter guy but intuitively these resistors would smooth the stop band parallel resonances at 4 5 and 8 kHz and dampen the ringing exhibited ...John
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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 09:41:09 PM »

IF your system happens to have feedback wrapped around a filter like this, be careful,
look at the phase shift!

This could happen if you put the filter into a speech amplifier, and you have feedback.

No feedback, no likely problem...

If you reduce the Q by using resistances you'll also will also reduce the stop band depth(s)...
The filter, iirc, is also sensitive to input and output Z...

Probably for typical ham use the multiple sections are excessive... being ~30dB down above the
roll-off frequency is likely more than sufficient, given the "brick wall" slope of the initial roll-off.
Since most AM ham gear rolls down anyhow as one gets above ~10kHz, it seems likely that
this is sufficient... adding one more 2nd order pole above the roll-of freq will pull the ultimate
HF response down about 24dB below that area above the initial "cliff" by two octaves higher.
In the example shown, that would put it down 24dB by about 20kHz, from the initial plateau that
occurs after the initial "cliff", which is due to the filter in essence being a high Q notch.

Fyi, these are elliptic filters...
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 03:03:21 AM »

If the DCR of each inductor was raised to 7 Ohms, the sharp downward spikes go away, but the filter is not as sharp. (still sharp enough) but the ringing is not affected . I have not tried shunting the caps with resistors.
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2018, 02:52:32 PM »

You need to shunt the inductors
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2018, 01:35:55 AM »

shunting the inductors  (same as C5 C6 C7) enough to eliminate the ringing softened the cutoff too much. 1K is shown.
2K was about the max. and the curve was still pretty soft.
5K the ringing was as much as before.

There are lots of commercially made 'can' stye voice frequency filters in the older decades. I wonder if they have the same pulse response issues.

On the other hand, if the filter is used before any clipping is done, the problem seems to not exist much.

I don't use clipping, just some compression more like AVC for the mike, and and soft limiting. There are no sharp corners to cause the problem. That's probably the best answer.



* 1.png (33.71 KB, 982x1129 - viewed 28 times.)
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2018, 02:23:53 AM »

nice work Pat .... 25 or so years ago National Semidestructor made a switched capacitor filter low pass filter with steep skirts and predictable phase response and were inexpensve ... can't remember the model number so going to Google it ... MF10 rings a bell .... a copy of the applicatons handbook is available to download for free ( mf10_AN-1) .... something to feed the ravenous Bunker of Doom ....more input ...more input  Kiss  Kiss
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2018, 01:48:19 PM »

Your softer, recent bypassed inductor design seems to be about equivalent to a simple RC low pass filter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter#/media/File%3AButterworth_response.svg
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2018, 02:57:30 PM »

I have a low pass filter built into my HB xmtr.  I used a shielded UTC audio inductor and some caps.  Works very well.  Slight rise at 5KC and then drops off sharply at around 5.5KC.  No audio past 6KC.

Fred
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