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Author Topic: 2-Tone Test for Positive Peaks  (Read 22321 times)
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W1TAG
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« on: January 11, 2015, 07:22:57 PM »

It's not a new idea, but craftily-chosen two-tone combinations can produce asymmetrical audio waveforms that can really exercise the positive peak capability of an AM transmitter without going over 100% on negatives. A simple, no or low cost implementation:
http://www.w1tag.com/2_Tone.htm

John, W1TAG
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Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2015, 07:59:43 PM »

Very nice. I've used the two tone approach to simulate asymmetrical voice in circuit and signal simulators like Matlab and LTSpice, but never on a transmitter.

Thanks for sharing.
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AB2EZ
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"Season's Greetings" looks okay to me...


« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2015, 09:00:12 PM »

John

This is a "neat" idea.

Note: there is a subtle issue/problem with classic vacuum tube push pull modulators:

Sometimes, but not always, the grids of the modulator tubes are AC coupled to the audio phase splitter/driver.

If the positive-going modulator tube is driven hard enough to draw grid current on positive modulation peaks, then it's grid bias will drift downward (more negative) with this audio input waveform. This is because the repeating positive peaks will charge up the grid coupling capacitor (i.e. the self-biasing effect).

A similar downward drift of the grid bias will occur, with this audio input waveform, in transmitters that employ a relatively high source resistance bias supply, with a high value bypass capacitor across its output.

With real speech, positive peaks occur a much smaller percentage of the time... and the grid leak/biasing resistor (or the bias supply) will be able to remove the charge produced by the grid current that flows on positive peaks... with negligible effect on the grid bias.

I made a test waveform using one of the freeware programs that consists of: a positive pulse of amplitude 60mV and 2ms duration, followed by a negative pulse of amplitude 30mV and 4ms duration, followed by a 200ms pause of amplitude 0.

This waveform has zero average value (i.e. every positive pulse has a area: 60mV x 2ms = 120uV-sec, and every negative pulse has area: -30mV x 4ms = -120uV-sec)... and repeats five times per second.

I believe it is better for simulating voice peaks because of the relatively long pause after each positive/negative pair of pulses.

I recorded it as an MPEG file, and I can play it into my audio chain from my computer's sound card (as you do with the 2-tone audio test waveform)

Since it is periodic, the test tone and the resulting modulated transmitter output envelope are readily observed with an oscilloscope.

The MPEG file is attached below.

Stu






* AM Test Waveform 3.WAV (2432.04 KB - downloaded 278 times.)
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Stewart ("Stu") Personick. Pictured: (from The New Yorker) "Season's Greetings" looks OK to me. Let's run it by the legal department
N1BCG
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2015, 11:00:28 PM »

Is there a formula to calculate the increase in dB of audio by modulating above +100%? I am aware of the additional distortion in some receivers, the effects on signal fading, and the higher voltages on transmitter components, so I am trying to weigh those against the increase in perceived audio.
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Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2015, 11:13:54 PM »

This should get you started.

http://amwindow.org/tech/htm/modulation.htm


IMO, it's more important to have a big carrier/signal, since this largely defines the SNR on the receiver end. Then is important to have a high average level of modulation. Anything over 100 percent is just icing on the cake and won't usually make much difference, except when your signal is weak (that extra 3 dB might be important).
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2015, 11:19:35 PM »

John

I made a test waveform using one of the freeware programs that consists of: a short duration positive pulse of amplitude A, followed by a negative pulse that has amplitude 0.5A and twice the duration, followed by a relatively long pause of amplitude 0.

This waveform has zero average value, and repeats several times per second.

That's a great idea too. Each polarity then contains the same energy, very nice!
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Radio Candelstein
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2015, 11:27:10 PM »

This should get you started.

http://amwindow.org/tech/htm/modulation.htm


IMO, it's more important to have a big carrier/signal, since this largely defines the SNR on the receiver end. Then is important to have a high average level of modulation. Anything over 100 percent is just icing on the cake and won't usually make much difference, except when your signal is weak (that extra 3 dB might be important).

Heard some of those big carriers with low modulation. Bad business. RX AGC is working normally for RF and IF, but there is usually none for audio because it is assumed that all modulation is targeted for 100%.

You turn the receiver up to hear the big carrier/small modulation station, and the next person who has good modulation blasts you out.

Picking up on the idea of re-use of circuits as done in transceivers, I wonder if a good and clean compressor in the audio chain could be switched in to level the audio output of a receiver, to accommodate all levels of carrier and modulation.
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Radio Candelstein
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2015, 11:56:48 PM »

Great link and info.. Thanks for posting
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ka1bwo
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2015, 12:17:29 AM »

It's not a new idea, but craftily-chosen two-tone combinations can produce asymmetrical audio waveforms that can really exercise the positive peak capability of an AM transmitter without going over 100% on negatives. A simple, no or low cost implementation:
http://www.w1tag.com/2_Tone.htm

John, W1TAG

Thanks for a novel idea! Going at the link the function equation doesn't look right.
Shouldn't it be Y=SIN(X+PI/4) + SIN(2X)
Joe
 
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AB2EZ
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"Season's Greetings" looks okay to me...


« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2015, 10:57:23 AM »

Actually, what is shown in the graph is: f(x) = cos(x) + cos(2x) = sin(x+ pi/2) + sin(2x + pi/2), where x is the horizontal axis, in radians. As plotted, the waveform repeats when x = 2pi = 6.28...

You can define a new function of x, which is f(x) shifted to the right by pi/4

g(x)  = f(x - pi/4) =

sin[(x - pi/4)+ pi/2)] +  sin [2(x - pi/4) + pi/2] = sin(x + pi/4) + sin(2x)

Therefore the graph of g(x) = sin(x + pi/4) + sin(2x) would have the same shape as the graph that is shown, but it would be shifted to the right by pi/4

In any event, the graph that is shown is f(x) = cos(x) + cos(2x); and it does not have the same shape as sin(x) + sin(2x), even if you allow for shifting f(x) to the right by some amount.

Stu


It's not a new idea, but craftily-chosen two-tone combinations can produce asymmetrical audio waveforms that can really exercise the positive peak capability of an AM transmitter without going over 100% on negatives. A simple, no or low cost implementation:
http://www.w1tag.com/2_Tone.htm

John, W1TAG

Thanks for a novel idea! Going at the link the function equation doesn't look right.
Shouldn't it be Y=SIN(X+PI/4) + SIN(2X)
Joe
  
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2015, 11:46:38 AM »

Prolly a better test for linear operation in the AM mode.

Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2015, 12:03:39 PM »

Thanks for the link: http://amwindow.org/tech/htm/modulation.htm

Does this account for the fact that the negative peaks have to stop increasing at -100%? For modulation levels from 0 to 100, both halves of the waveform increase together, but above 100%, only the positive half of the waveform can increase which results in asymmetry.

Wouldn't the formula have to change above +100%?
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ka1bwo
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2015, 03:59:35 PM »

Stu,
Thanks for rationalizing the graph equation.
Joe




Actually, what is shown in the graph is: f(x) = cos(x) + cos(2x) = sin(x+ pi/2) + sin(2x + pi/2), where x is the horizontal axis, in radians. As plotted, the waveform repeats when x = 2pi = 6.28...

If you change variables to y= x + pi/4 (i.e. x= y - pi/4) then you get

g(y)  = f(y - pi/4) =

sin[(y - pi/4)+ pi/2)] +  sin [2(y - pi/4) + pi/2] = sin(y + pi/4) + sin(2y)

Therefore the graph of g(y) = sin(y + pi/4) + sin(2y) would have the same shape as the graph that is shown, but it would be shifted to the right by pi/4

In any event, the graph that is shown is cos(x) + cos(2x); which is not the same waveform as sin(x) + sin(2x).

Stu


It's not a new idea, but craftily-chosen two-tone combinations can produce asymmetrical audio waveforms that can really exercise the positive peak capability of an AM transmitter without going over 100% on negatives. A simple, no or low cost implementation:
http://www.w1tag.com/2_Tone.htm

John, W1TAG

Thanks for a novel idea! Going at the link the function equation doesn't look right.
Shouldn't it be Y=SIN(X+PI/4) + SIN(2X)
Joe
  
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Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2015, 09:02:25 PM »

The peak-to-peak voltage of the envelope is determined entirely by the positive peaks. Matters not that the negs are limited to 100%.


Thanks for the link: http://amwindow.org/tech/htm/modulation.htm

Does this account for the fact that the negative peaks have to stop increasing at -100%? For modulation levels from 0 to 100, both halves of the waveform increase together, but above 100%, only the positive half of the waveform can increase which results in asymmetry.

Wouldn't the formula have to change above +100%?
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N1BCG
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2015, 10:37:29 PM »

What I was getting at has more to do with the perceived increase in volume to the listener as a modulated signal goes beyond +/- 100%. Increasing a symmetric modulated wave from 50 to 100% increases both the positive and negative halves of the waveform whereas an asymmetric increase beyond +100 only results in an increase in half the waveform.

If the negative half of the modulated waveform contributes to "loudness" then that contribution would diminish beyond a fully modulating symmetric waveform.
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 10:48:25 PM »

I've seen pinched carriers and the resultant distortion being confused for loudness on more than one occasion....

--Shane
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Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 12:18:51 AM »

You're stuck on positive and negative. It not about either of those. It's about peak-to-peak (p/p). If you increase the p/p of the envelope, the audio will be louder.



What I was getting at has more to do with the perceived increase in volume to the listener as a modulated signal goes beyond +/- 100%. Increasing a symmetric modulated wave from 50 to 100% increases both the positive and negative halves of the waveform whereas an asymmetric increase beyond +100 only results in an increase in half the waveform.

If the negative half of the modulated waveform contributes to "loudness" then that contribution would diminish beyond a fully modulating symmetric waveform.
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N1BCG
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 02:12:17 PM »

You're stuck on positive and negative. It not about either of those. It's about peak-to-peak (p/p). If you increase the p/p of the envelope, the audio will be louder.

Yes, but, the benefits erode over +100%. From Frank Foti (Omnia) regarding this discussion:

"There's actually a couple of aspects at play here. Increasing the size or volume of the positive cycle will increase loudness a bit. By example, in AM, asymetrical modulation is allowed to be +125%/-99%. A [theoretical] increase in volume of symmetrical modulation to +/-125% would offer about a 2dB in loudness factor. Since we're gaining only half of that waveform increase, the loudness shift would be about 1/2 that, or 1dB.

At +125%, the added odd order harmonics is minimal. At +180%, it would get quite audible. Also, the method of creating asymmetry will be an issue. We employ psychoacoustic masking when generating asymmetry so the added harmonics are minimized."

The result is that, given the 1500 watt PEP limit, the cleanest and loudest signal will be achieved with careful clipping of a 375 watt symmetric waveform rather than by using a lower carrier power and driving a negative peak diode circuit to achieve higher positive peaks up to 1500 total.
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W1TAG
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 06:07:56 PM »

Apologies for the confusion over the plotting. The plot shown was indeed generated by the cosine function. When I did the write-up, my brain was on auto-pilot! I have corrected the article.

John, W1TAG
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 07:17:10 PM »

I installed that TCube twice and  I cannot find it on my computer. I looked at my add/remove area and on the C drive and its not to be found. Windows 8.1? Any ideas?
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ka1bwo
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 11:24:32 PM »

Terry,
Same thing happened to me but did eventually find the three files in the OS Win 7. When I ran the exe file the virtual generator did appeared but didn't run properly. The program wouldn't close had to do a system restart.
Joe  



I installed that TCube twice and  I cannot find it on my computer. I looked at my add/remove area and on the C drive and its not to be found. Windows 8.1? Any ideas?
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Pete, WA2CWA
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 02:17:33 AM »

I installed that TCube twice and  I cannot find it on my computer. I looked at my add/remove area and on the C drive and its not to be found. Windows 8.1? Any ideas?

It's not mentioned on his web site what OS's it even works in. Maybe it doesn't work in Win 8.1.

But to find the files in Win 8.1; scroll down to the Task Bar (the bottom bar with the thumbnails on the left side); mouse over them to find "This PC"; click it on; upper right, enter in the field, "Search This PC", the name of file (I would start with tcube).
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2015, 01:09:22 PM »

 I am happy to report that it works fine in Windows 8.1 Grin Grin

Thanks Pete & Joe, I installed it again in a jump drive and it worked. The Icon is extremely small but it gave me what I needed to look for. I went back to my download file and found that the program installs itself into the download file and not in the C drive programs area, so that is why I could not locate it. I sent an icon to the desktop and now its very easy to find.

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AB2EZ
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"Season's Greetings" looks okay to me...


« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2015, 02:10:24 PM »

Terry

Can you record about 15 seconds of the combined cos(x) and cos(2x) waveforms as an MPEG file... and post it in this thread.

That way, folks who want to inject the waveform into their AM transmitter could just down load it, and play it on their PC or their iPod or their smart phone.

Stu
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Stewart ("Stu") Personick. Pictured: (from The New Yorker) "Season's Greetings" looks OK to me. Let's run it by the legal department
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 02:20:09 PM »

Didn't work here on windows 7. Oh well that is why there are real TTGs in the operating rack.
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