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Author Topic: Freezing 3-500Zs  (Read 5498 times)
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k3msb
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« on: December 17, 2014, 02:26:33 PM »

Hi All

Due to increasing costs of propane our club house will not be heated in winter this year (South-central PA).

Our amplifier has a pair of 3-500Z tubes, and I'm concerned about two things.

First, can the tubes take storage in sub freezing temperatures without damage?

Second, will there be detrimental effects if the amp is switched on with the tubes below freezing? 

I find a lot of info on the web about using the 3-500Z after long term storage, but nothing about short term storage in below freezing temperatures.   During the winter, I expect we will turn the amp on for cooking about every 2 to 4 weeks.

Thanks & Merry Christmas to all !

73 Mark K3MSB
(Having a ball with my new 160M Inverted L……)
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73 Mark K3MSB
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 02:53:23 PM »

There are no limitations or restrictions listed on the data sheet.  Did you check it?
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k3msb
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 03:48:35 PM »

Yes;  I have a copy of the data sheet dated March 15, 1968 and I see nothing mentioned about storage below freezing.

Still, I'd rather ask, than not ask and be sorry.....
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73 Mark K3MSB
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 04:31:47 PM »

Second, will there be detrimental effects if the amp is switched on with the tubes below freezing?  

Hi Mark,

There does not seem to be any official Eimac data out there on the subject that I could find when I looked in the past.  However, here is some info you may find interesting:

There was a time when I used a blower mounted on the outside wall (sucking in outside the house air) to cool a 4-1000A final modulated by 4-1000As. The object was to have low blower noise. During the winter, the air was sometimes so cold that even the 4-1000A rig, when operating, did not warm the shack. The air coming out of the operating tubes was barely luke warm. The blower hose kept the tubes at the same temperature as the outside air when the rig was turned off. So the tubes started operation cold, just like yours.

It worked FB for a few years this way.  However, I was worried about the seals for both the socket area and plate, especially when first turned on and the tubes were sitting at sub-freezing air temps and the fils came on.

Anyway, I axed a friend who was once an engineer at Varian (Eimac) about it. Basically he said that it's a matter of degree. The constant thermal expansion and contraction cycling from say room temp to 200F was normal, of course,  and should not affect the tube seal longevity. However, when we consider a cyclic run from 0F to full operating temp, this puts additional stress on the tube seals and is probably not a great idea. He basically thought it would be OK, but it was pushing the envelope.  The fact that mine ran OK for a few years this way shows at least this sample worked. I still use the same tubes and have since gone to all inside blower air at room temp.

I also ran an 8877 external anode tube with outside air at the same time and had no adverse seal effects. The 8877 tube also continues to function FB with inside room-temp air.

So, bottom line, it appears to be OK, at least for a few years sample size test. However, my guess is that over a 50 year period of use, the cold air tube would have more of a tendency to become gassy compared to a room-temp tube, due to seal deterioration / vacuum leakage, though I cannot prove this.

T
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ka1tdq
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2014, 06:16:56 PM »

...or, a move to Arizona might be well worth it.  The outside temperature doesn't get nearly as cold here.

Jon
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2014, 08:52:13 PM »

I don't think you have anything to worry about. I leave my BC-610, MY R-390 AND 2500 Pounds of Westinghouse all without any heat over winter. It goes to 30 below some winters there. I even leave my condenser mic in place and come spring time, it all fires right up! Been doing this for about 15 years. The only danger visiting the shack when its that cold is the Snow Snakes are lurking and since they are invisible, once bitten, your instantly frozen to death!

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John K5PRO
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2014, 09:05:34 PM »

I was told by engineering for either RCA (Burle) or Eimac (CPI) not to store spares in trailers that get extremely cold, due to seals. This was years ago, and we were dealing with tubes of 200-300 kW plate dissipation. So we store them inside, still do.
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2014, 10:10:03 PM »

It will never hurt to gently start up the filament and slowly warm up the tube a bit to remove any condensation, then apply full filament voltage and go to town.
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2014, 10:27:44 AM »

Ive had several amperex 5894's crack at the top, plate seals when left stored out on a covered porch over some winters. Exact winter and conditions unknown when they cracked, but house was in the mountains of very northern Pa. I'll never leave tubes I intend to use someday subject to temp. extremes.

It may not be the absolute temperature that cracks them but the sudden differential.
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RICK  *W3RSW*
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