Audio quality venting

[VE3LYX]

Gotta get this off my chest.
There is a move among many to try and produce Broadcast Quality Audio in their Am rigs. I have heard all the reasons and respect their desire to do so. I however am not among them. I like the old smaller range audio freq response of the old rigs. It is what attracted me to ham radio as a kid during my swl days. I don't want my ARC 5 or my Dx60B to sound like the local FM station. I want it to sound like it did back in the day. I don't see what is wrong with that. I don't want power steering or AC on my 63 Dodge MAX WEDGE either.  Same mindset.
However a couple of times this year when I have joined "the group" a new guy has giving me a signal report with "20 over but with that pinched off unmodified audio. " ???huh? Smack your head with a hammer please.
I don't say "You are 20 over and it sounds like you're eating crackers while shouting onto a rain barrel " although for several it is the truth.  Be it my ears or perhaps my receivers but I can often not tell any difference when they play with their mixer ranges or modify their audio chain with the latest magic solution. Most of the time many are driving the rig too hard anyway and there is always distortion on their signal. Makes you want to dig out the tape recorder and return them a sample of I haxxve the latessst audixxxio modszzzzzzzz  now done to tsssssshe rig" as they drive the silly thing into distortion on every second word. I don't. Mom told me if you have nothing good to say then don't say anything. Most of the time I can do that however occasionally if pushed one could get to meet, as my racing pals say "The Other Don Dulmage"
If I want mine to sound original or "bandits at 12 oclock" sound , what is that to anyone else. Be careful how you answer. I may record even you.
Now how do you say MYOB in Q code? That is the question.
don
BTW the best audio I have heard here, if you are into that B.Q.A is from  KB?OUA and I respect his desire to do and his ability to carry it off.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Though some ops feel it's their duty to trip over themselves to give unsolicited audio reports, always remember Rule #1: Audio reports are the opinion of others. Essentially, that's all you're getting. Not a scientific study, not lab quality results with print outs. You're getting exactly what person XYZ thinks your signal sounds like. And if they're into broadcast audio, even if they don't have a clue how to set up their own, your stock audio won't make their Top 10 list.

To your point, we have one or two down this way who were/are famous for belittling anyone running a 'ricebox' or anything not plate-modulated. No different than your school days when you had a dim bulb or two around, or even just reasonable folks who disagreed with your view. Vent if needed, and move on. Understand too, that you're likely in the minority, so some folks might automatically assume you want to know how 'bad' you sound so you can address it. If you take the time to explain, 99% of the people will be happy as all hell t be working a cool old set.

And that's the good news: there is more than enough room for all types of signals on the bands. Beeping CW, quacking SSB (aka AM Lite), communications-quality AM or broadcast quality AM. Run whatcha brung, but most importantly - enjoy yourself. If getting crappy reports from others will impact your ability to do so, don't ask. And if they simply offer a report that doesn't meet your requirements, well....explain if you want, or thank them and continue. It is amateur radio after all.

[WD8BIL]

Most of the time many are driving the rig too hard anyway and there is always distortion on their signal.

Did it ever occur to you it might be your diode detector? As has been pointed out here many times, most DDs can't handle 101% mod peaks let alone 110%+.

But as Todd says, run what u brung, have fun and move on to the weather or your newest scar.

BTW; Got any pictures of that Dodge?

[W3GMS]

Make your audio the way you want!  Audio is like pictures on the wall, everyone tends to like it a little different.  If someone tells you your audio does not sound good that is just their opinion.  Take it as such and move on.  As far as all the distortion your hearing, I can't share that I hear that on a lot of signals.  Yes I do hear it on some, but only excessive distortion on a few signals. 

Make sure your audio is clean and not over-modulated and as far as the EQ goes, make it the way you want it.  After all, who wants to transmit a distorted over modulated signal.  After that suit yourself. 

Joe, W3GMS
 

[N8ETQ]

  Ha Ha Ha...  LOL!

       "Your FB here OM. Listening on an old Knight Star Roamer,
It used to sound sweet but now needs filter caps, you
sound great!".....

/Dan

Most of the time many are driving the rig too hard anyway and there is always distortion on their signal.

Did it ever occur to you it might be your diode detector? As has been pointed out here many times, most DDs can't handle 101% mod peaks let alone 110%+.

But as Todd says, run what u brung, have fun and move on to the weather or your newest scar.

BTW; Got any pictures of that Dodge?

[VE3LYX]

All good points. Thanks. I am ok now. Once I spit I am usually ok for quite awhile. Star Roamer? I don't have a Knight kit one but I think there are 7 regens in my shack
 Fortunately for the rest of the world I only use them on CW. (mostly) Normally I use the HR10B which isn't the best but a nice signal still sounds nice on it, plus a back up digital I use for freq spotting on the dummy load or band checking.
 Pics of the Dodge?
There was a thread here "Hams with cars" or something a couple of weeks ago and I posted it there. Should be an easy find.
don

[KA2DZT]

Great, glad you're feeling better.  Don't think I ever heard your signal on the air,  but I'm sure it sounds just fine.

Keep in mine, some of the super-wide-band audio heard on 75M at times can be annoying.  Too much bass and it gets difficult to understand during tough band conditions.  Signals that are too wide spill into nearby QSOs.  Problem is, since most know these offenders, nobody says anything to them.

Fred

[K1JJ]

I think one of the guys said it right the other night... before he gives out an audio report, he first axes the guy how would he like to sound.  IE, Is he looking for military audio, the stock boat anchor sound, broadcash hi-fi, etc. Some of us assume that everyone wants hi-fi BC audio, but this is not so.

That being said, personally, the reason for getting a rig to sweep cleanly from say 30 Hz to 10K is to have a cleaner signal on the band.  Then if we chose to limit our audio to 4500 or 5 KHz, the "roll-off" audio above 5Khz  will still be very clean and sound like subtle wisps up the band.   Unless we are running a full low level DSP SDR transmitter, all rigs (including linear amps) have roll-off energy above our desired audio bandpass.

In contrast, if our rig is clean to 4500 Hz and not clean higher, if we roll off at 4500, the energy above 4500 will create unintentional garbage up the band.  Even if the roll-off frequencies are down -30dB, it will be heard to a certain degree..

T

[VE3LYX]

Yes, Somehow when I was reading your post I had a vision of some ham dressed in tie and tails listening to the Vienna Waltz on his HQ129 or similar with a set of leather covered military cans.
You made a good point regarding freq range. For me and it may be my hearing but I doubt it since my preference has not changed since the beginning of my radio interests, that punch thru sound of communications audio is what I like. clean sharp , no real highs and no real lows. I can hear it even in bad band conditions. That is what I would like to sound like. Too much bass is for me hard to understand. But you know, that is just me. I would suggest to no one they change.  I guess I would probably like the same consideration.
Anyway I am on to other things now. Have been reworking my loading cap circuit on my homebrew linear. I got caught flatfooted this morning when I did an on the air test that wasn't as I had hoped and the DX60B was straining its guts to drive however corrections have been successfully made and I just loaded up the Hb dual 811A linear with my 4 tube homebrew wooden transceiver. Was able to drive it with no issues to an output around 60 to 70 watts. That is a first. And it does definitely have pinched off "bandits at 9 0clock" audio. Hand mic from WWII(single button carbon), a twin triode (1/2osc/1/2modulator)driving a 6l6g with screen modulation it should bring  tear to the eye of some old timers.
don

[KA2DZT]

Tom

I was going to add to my previous post, but left out, a comment about all your work to get your rig to run clean up to 10-12k.  Point should noted, that what you're doing is to make sure your rig runs the best possible at about 5k.  Having it run clean at 10K insures the best 5K results.

Fred

[W4EWH]

There is a move among many to try and produce Broadcast Quality Audio in their Am rigs. I have heard all the reasons and respect their desire to do so. I however am not among them. I like the old smaller range audio freq response of the old rigs.

Don,

In a previous career, I was a Broadcast Engineer. We spent a lot of time trying to get that last 0.5% of harmonic distortion out of the signal, so I know how much work it is to produce "Broadcast Quality" audio, and I admire those who can do it with amateur-grade equipment.

As fate would have it, I was called upon to do an "OTA" shift one Christmas, and although I didn't embarrass myself too much, I did gain a great insight into the reasons my transmitter might be better off in "stock" condition.

You see, I listened to the "aircheck" tape after the show, and I realized that the reason broadcast transmitters sound good is because broadcast announcers sound good! I, for my part, came to realize that my reedy Irish nasal drip of a voice would never be in demand in front of the microphone.

In short, while it's important to have a well tuned and properly operated transmitter, I feel it's also important to realize that electronics can't add what the good lord didn't give you. Some hams think they can do gene splicing with a soldering iron, and that leads to frustration when the result isn't what they had hoped.

I'm content to sound like "me" now, and so long as a rig gives a reasonable approximation of my "in person" voice to a listener on the air, I'm happy. If your rig makes you sound like you, then I think it has excellent fidelity.

HTH.

Bill, W1AC

[N2DTS]

I have, and got lambasted for it.

I like nice sounding audio, like a (normal) person was talking face to face with you.

If I run a lower power signal, I want some punch, if I run a big signal, I like it to be on the narrow side but smooth and with a good EQ balance.

I will give out audio reports, you sound great, or you sound muffled, or you have 50% modulation, or your signal is 20 Kc wide, your vfo is drifting, or whatever.
I would want to know.

Everyone should know its very subjective, depends on the receiver, band conditions, what rig one is running, and what the receiving person likes to hear. Its not personal.

I myself think I always sound like crap on anything, I do not have a radio voice, and sound like I sniff glue in my spare time, as I am looking at notes, the sdr display, the meters, modulation, etc.
What I want to sound like is easy to copy, with clean audio, not real wide, and on frequency.


There is someone on the air that will go into a 20 minute rant if you say anything about them.
I once told him he was not real strong at my qth and he went off for 20 minutes about how he was sorry he could not run enough power to make me happy and so on.
I just avoid him now.

There are all sorts of people on the air, and you should not let what anyone says bother you one bit.
If I was to work you, I might say you have very punchy restricted audio, its clean or dirty, your signal is weak or strong, its drifting, or not, off frequency or not, and its not a personal attack.
All you need to tell me is you are running a low power homebrew one tube TX with a carbon mic and a whip antenna and I will think its great.
We will then have a great qso about your transmitter.

Great, glad you're feeling better.  Don't think I ever heard your signal on the air,  but I'm sure it sounds just fine.

Keep in mine, some of the super-wide-band audio heard on 75M at times can be annoying.  Too much bass and it gets difficult to understand during tough band conditions.  Signals that are too wide spill into nearby QSOs.  Problem is, since most know these offenders, nobody says anything to them.

Fred

[VE3LYX]

"All you need to tell me is you are running a low power homebrew one tube TX with a carbon mic"
OH OH! Now my ears are red. How did you know? Worked a few of the lads here with this one during the last couple of weeks although I cheated using a long wire, end fed. Single 45 tube, carbon mic and a loop. Nothing else.
don

[ve3bkd]

hi,don
i think you hit it on the nail, how good can they sound with a wood box and not having to spent mega dollars on mics and compressors so that they could tell you, you sound like crap 

[N2DTS]

While doing various tests and mods to my vfo/exciter, I had the sdr running on frequency, and noticed that when my wife came in and asked me a question and I answered her, my audio showed up on the sdr display.
I seem to amplitude modulate the vfo in some way.
I could hook up a horn to it and modulate my rig with it.

Listening to it, I thought it sounded quite good...

"All you need to tell me is you are running a low power homebrew one tube TX with a carbon mic"
OH OH! Now my ears are red. How did you know? Worked a few of the lads here with this one during the last couple of weeks although I cheated using a long wire, end fed. Single 45 tube, carbon mic and a loop. Nothing else.
don

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I generally run all my transmitters and receivers at roughly 6 KHz bandwidth (even the Flex). So, when I'm working someone, it really makes no difference to me if they tweaked their tweakers to have melodious audio from DC to daylight; they only get 6 KHz on any of my receivers.  "Broadcast audio" on the amateur bands has never impressed me.

[Steve - K4HX]

I like the older rigs too. Many from the 1930s had very high fidelity audio. The pinched, narrow audio is something more recent, started in the late 40's and early 50s.

By the late 50's, the pendulum had begun to swing back the other way with some tiring of the unnatural sounding audio of the day and working for a hi-fi sound. Bill, W3DUQ was among them, as shown by his QSL card from 1957 below.

In other words, the "move" for improved audio quality is not new.

[W6TOM]

  The AMI guys down in Southern California are in many cases from the entertainment industry and are running old broadcast transmitters, they want broadcast quality audio and power. Some of those guys really do sound good too.

   Then there are the Military Radio Collectors, I'm one of those myself, I have been criticized for not using a carbon microphone with my ART-13's but a (GASP!!) D-104. The transmitter sounds better and modulates better with the D-104. I would rather have my radio modulate properly and have good communications quality audio than the crummy sounding "correct" microphone. The dynamotor whine does add authenticity too!! I do use a T-17 Carbon Microphone with my GRC-9 and BC-1306, it sound OK and modulates OK too. Put that same microphone on my any of my ART-13's and it sounds (to me) really crummy.

   I think it really depends on where you come from and what you want. Speaking for myself, my work experience in the 30 years I've been a communications technician has been in the utility industry, we want communications quality audio, what you get on good land line telephone. For me that is good enough.

   

[ve6cq]

Hello,

I appreciate ALL styles of audio. There is no bias to work or not work stations based upon how they choose to manipulate their signal, or the type of AM rig they use.

I am NOT a die hard AM'er, I am NOT a die hard SSB operator. I simply happen to love radio and the people who share enthusiasm for it.

It is my experience that if a signal is near the noise floor on AM, I could easily work it on SSB, and it might even be "easy copy". Often during our AM contacts to Europe, we actually do switch to SSB!!

Having said that, I still love AM. What draws me to AM operation, besides the FB operators across the board, is the potential for high quality audio.

My personal belief is, if I can't enjoy one of the few benefits AM has to offer, I might just as well be on SSB. That's part of the reason I choose not to operate low band AM. My antennas aren't good enough, and there isn't a real AM following locally. On that thought, technology has made AM-like quality available on SSB. A 4Khz SSB signal occupies HALF the RF spectrum than it would take on AM for the SAME fidelity. That IS a leap forward. A decade or so ago, I couldn't have said that as easily, not to mention where SDR has taken AM.

In this day and age where we need AM representation across the spectrum, there is a BIGGER picture here. We ALL love AM, but we just enjoy doing it differently! That's healthy. As I say to the many stations that lament they aren't on a boat anchor, "I don't care how you got here, I'm just glad you showed up"!!

Seriously, I've been licensed for more years than I'd like to admit, and only started pursuing AM over the last cycle. The irony is, that if it were not for the fidelity possibilities AM has to offer, I would have NEVER found AM in the first place.

Live and let live, or in this case - operate.

Kindest,




Rick

[Opcom]

I agree with the OP about keeping the rigs stock, if that's what he likes. I also enjoy strict communications band audio when it is done well.

Who could answer me this. Is the "bandits at 12 o'clock" audio the same as "space shuttle audio"?

Granted one is generally AM, the other FM.

My goal is to have the transmitter as hi-fi as possible so that what goes in is the same as what comes out. Then I decide what goes in.

I've made slight indications here and there that I have a collection of audio filters salvaged from a variety of gear. The narrower ones are maybe 300-2500Hz, the widest is just a DC-4KC brick wall type response, and one is even a 450-Hz high pass. When the tme comes to put together the speech amp, I would like it to have 3 or 4 of them that can be switched in or out so I would have a variety of bandwidths to use for different conditions.

The point is to be able to use the 'space shuttle' bandwidth and compression, or a very natural sound. A choice.

When the rig's working, it belts out a very nice signal (despite recently discovered HF roll-off). I always have the bass turned down, and everyone says it sounds great. But that is "to them", only a handful of people. There may be others who would not like it.

W1AC said:
"You see, I listened to the "aircheck" tape after the show, and I realized that the reason broadcast transmitters sound good is because broadcast announcers sound good! I, for my part, came to realize that my reedy Irish nasal drip of a voice would never be in demand in front of the microphone."


Voice is a huge point for those who want a natural sound. OK well I have, or can use, something like that kind of announcing voice (among others) and I think it makes up for deficiencies in the TX. 8-) I am lucky! But I have never had any job or training for it. It's not that good.

I think you can work on your voice with some practice and you may be surprised how different you may sound if you want.

When I was in the TXSG I'd run the UHF FM commo net from the truck and once someone told me that it sounded like "the voice of God" over their HT. Over an HT! Now. I do not mean to blaspheme Him in any way, I would not dare. It is just what someone else said, and others agreed or mentioned it later because he'd told them around. Part of it was the commercial 2-way set and good stock commercial mike, part of it is the way the mike is properly held, and part of it is using the right voice when commanding a net, or being net control, to sound confident (not like a milk toast) because the soldiers in the field are relying on you.
I am 100% sure that I could twang it up and use poor technique on the mike and not speak confidently, and Net Control would then have been perceived as much less authoritative.
Much of what is perceived is in the voice and the way it goes out. Most people can improve some with practice. My voice has definitely gotten better since I decided to start singing along with the hymns in church and using the lower registers as much as possible. I am sure the singing is not of the best quality, but I know it has trained my voice better for speech, to do some singing according to written notes and the like.

[VE3LYX]

On my DX60B I use a dispatchers mic. It is an amplified Turner or a derivative of a Turner. It gives the DX60B a substantial kick which it can use. Being  dispatchers unit it would not be good for singing but it is good for copy.
On my 80M ARC5 and my Hb 20M (two 12ax7s and a 6146B screen mod) I use a decent audio mic that could be used for music even. The ARC5 is modulated by a series cathode modulator I built and played with till I got it how I wanted. It can sound quite broadcast but I was looking for substantial driving power and that is just how it wound up.
I did have it on my single 45 tube TNT the other day just to see how it would work. It was surprising.
All the rest of my AM rigs , my 160M ARC5 , my two homebrew transceivers, my two solid state QRP transmitters use carbon mics. Some WWII vintage hand mics and some telephone carbon mics. I really enjoy working with the electro mechanical carbon mic circuits be it as a electro mechanical speech amplifier or as a absorption loop modulator, there is something about operating with a very low parts count and producing a readable signal like would have been back in about 1917 to say 1930s that I find interesting and fun. I have gotten quite comfortable with the loop modulation designs from pre 1920 but I don't expect anything approaching broadcast quality from that. Although two qso with the TNT and the loop I was told that one could hear well enuf to tell it was me as my voice characteristics were coming thru.
All that is fine but the point is or was why is it necessary to insult another's audio?  If I had a hum or an audio break up that is something I need to know but if one just feels the need to tell me my audio "is NOT like theirs!" as far as I am concerned they can take a hike. I would never say that to anyone myself. Obviously they were not spanked enuf as a child.
My 2 cts worth
don

[N2DTS]

I got spanked plenty as a child.

I know many people on the air have no idea what is going out, they do not monitor their modulation levels or audio, or their frequency.
I have worked many people what were modulating at 50% and were 2Kc off frequency, or had serious distortion because one modulator tube crapped out.

Most times, if someone sounds good to me, I tell them so, if they sound really bad, I will tell them so, and whatever they have is fine with me as long as its what the other person expected out of the transmitter.

I have been told in the past that my signal was very wide, and it was, so I scrapped the NCL circuit I was using.
I have been told I have no highs, and am looking into that now.

My transmitter takes such remarks very personaly, but I do not.

I let everyone slide, the ssb guys often have no idea they are too close to an AM signal, the AM guys get angry, the AM guys may run real wide signals and the ssb guys get angry, all for no reason.

[WQ9E]

There is a place and a time for different sorts of audio response.  The guy running a low power rig with broadcast audio on 75 in the summer is just making things tough for listeners with so much of the power being used for the pleasing but not intelligence conveying lower frequencies.  The carbon mic narrow military sound is interesting but I wouldn't want to listen to it for a long time.  None of the vintage mass market ham rigs sound horrible when properly adjusted with a decent mic even though many of them won't hit 100% modulation  with low distortion across the range.  I use mostly selectable sideband AM receivers when operating on 3880 or 3885 because there will always be one or two people who either through excessively wide frequency response and/or poor adjustment create issues well removed from their operating frequency.  Being able to choose the best sideband helps a lot with that issue.

The only "audio quality" guys I have an issue with are the ones who treat it like a religion and in their self-centered world anyone who doesn't want the same audio style as them is wrong.  Fortunately there aren't that many of this rabid type but there are a few who are out there like missionaries looking to convert those of us who are "audio infidels" in their world.  I just avoid those suffering from audio ethnocentrism and remind myself that it could be worse.  I have been spending some time researching Corvettes and you have to cut through the ravings of a large number of self-centered insufferable pricks to extract nuggets of useful information.  If you want to see forums with a very poor signal to noise ratio those forums are exemplars and it makes ham radio personalities seem pretty mild by comparison.

[ka4koe]

You must have a good setup of your levels! It applies to every radio out there. I follow W1AEX's setup for my Flex and I invariably get many good audio reports from folks. Of course, the large capsule electric condenser microphone helps as well.

[W7NGA]

I love good audio, and when band conditions warrant big-wide audio .. beautiful.
Just remember the little guy 10 kHz distant, scratching through the noise.

And if I am honest, I have to say that parking oneself on 21.430 Mhz when the band is wide-open, for two hours, and going through the entire SDR menu structure tweaking each parameter with/without ancillary SKYPE connection is better suited elsewhere perhaps.

If I may ...

Ham 1: "that's 8, how does that sound?"
Ham 2: "good"
Ham 1: "that's 7, how does that sound?"
Ham 2: "good"
Ham 1: "that's 6, how does that sound?"
Ham 2: "good"

...

Ham 1: "better?"
Ham 2: "not really"

[move on to next tweak, ad nauseum]

I don't think much of contesting either 

dan W7NGA
San Juan Island, Wa.