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Author Topic: a few notes on solid stating choke input vacuum tube power supplies  (Read 6780 times)
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w4bfs
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« on: September 07, 2013, 08:18:34 AM »

Rather than hi-jacking another thread about this (the better brother) I thot I might just add this to the long term ongoing discussion ...

Solid stating a previously vacuum tube rectifier power supply needs to considered as a system problem.  Considering that you are starting with different line supply voltages (110 Vac vs now more common 120 or higher Vac)  To help keep the transformer cool, we need to take the now unused rectifier filament winding and buck the primary winding ... this alone will cool it down a lot ....

Ok so now to the rectifer string .... be conservative ... diodes are cheap and besides the choke will generate a LOT of back emf as the supply is turned off ... the addition of a small capacitor to the input side of the choke to ground will help snub this .... I generally use .1 to .5 uFd and this will only causes a small increase in B+ ... for previously choke input using a bit more capacity can help raise the B+ to former levels ( in the Viking II example, the 300 V lv supply decreased to 250 V by solid stating and removing the input capacitor) ... just use a smaller value input cap than before .... you can bring it right back to 300 V as before .... on the output side of the choke you can increase capacity and get less ripple ....  need to mind the current load on the transformer if you change from choke input to capacitor input ( up to about 50% more in an extreme case ) so you may need to derate

I have not seen any resonance effects in changing these capacitance values around .... check it out with a scope to be sure ... also add a primary side fuse per transformer if you care !

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WD5JKO
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 11:42:48 AM »

John,

  This is a good topic to explore. I have done most of what you have suggested several times. I have had a couple of issues that I will present. I typically use 1N4007 diodes because I have a pile of them. Being 1 amp @ 1KV rated they can work in a lot of places. The ones made since the early 1980's use ion implant technology in the manufacturing process (was diffusion before) and these have a "controlled avalanche" break down characteristic. The old ones, once broken over from a high PRV spike usually die.

  So these days we usually dispense with the resistors and capacitors across each diode for the reasons mentioned above.  Still figuring the PIV needed based upon the formulas is the minimum. Doubling the number of diodes from there is good insurance. But what about that choke input filter spike when that big 8 Henry choke field collapses? The path has to go through those diodes in the reverse direction....Your point about adding a capacitor at the input side of a choke input filter to ground, like a .1 uf cap is a good one. This forms a series R-C snubber where the 'R' is the choke DC resistance. The time constant of that R-C could be adjusted by varying the "C' value.

  Then consider those 866 Solid state replacements that are plug in. These have a sh_t load of diodes all in series, and they have a 'controlled avalanche" characteristic such that they can just take a lot of abuse without failure. They are old technology now, but they worked pretty well. Many a ham has made a stack of diodes that failed, when those SS replacements survived.

  So back to your choke input conversion after Solid stating the rectifier. What has tripped me up is the output  AC ripple is higher then before, so the output capacitor value needs to go way up, maybe 5X before or something like that. This is no big deal though. Maybe the output capacitor was 20 uf before, and going to 100 uf is cheap and easy with caps available today.

  Another issue is the diodes each side overlap in conduction a little bit each half cycle. This might only be for 100 us, and sometimes approaching 1 ms depending on the diodes used. During the conduction overlap the transformer secondary is shorted out. When the reversed biased diode(s) finally stop conducting, the transformer generates a back EMF spike of high magnitude and short duration. This happens just after every zero crossing, or every 8.33 ms for 60 hz power. The result is a pulse train at a 120 hz rate that will go un-attenuated through the choke (the turn to turn capacitance allows narrow pulse passage), and the series inductance of the filter cap does little to stop the pulses either. So as a consequence, you might hear a "buzz" in the low level audio, or rf stages that was not there before.

  So to cure this buzz, a series R-C across the transformer secondary often snubbs this out. Another method is to follow the L-C choke input filter with an R-C, making a L-C-R-C filter. The 'R' only needs to be 100 ohms or so, and the 'C' added can be a .1uf polypropylene across an electrolytic like maybe a 20 uf...

  Edit: One other thing I did was to resonant the filter choke; this was on a dual supply like the NCX3 thread. In my case the LV choke was a 4 Henry smoothing choke, and with a .47 uf capacitor it resonated at just under 120 hz. The AC ripple went way down, and even the diode switching trash was way down. The problem here is that to keep the resonance rise down (voltage across the capacitor), you need some loss in the circuit. The DC resistance of the filter choke is effectively part of the L-C-R resonant filter where the 'R' value will lower the resonant Q. So adding some 'R' might be useful if the choke is low on DC resistance. I have heard that when doing this you want to be on one side of resonance. Perhaps if it were the high frequency side, then as the load current increases, the resonance will move further away since the choke inductance will drop. So maybe the low side is better, established at the minimum load current?

  So with resonating the choke, the capacitor needs to be capable of passing high current, and tolerating a good bit of voltage. Surely an oil cap would do this. But these days we have AC line voltage rated capacitors at the input side of switching power supplies, and many are rated at 275VAC. These are polypropylene, and can withstand at least 2X that rating for DC. In fact I was looking one up a while back, and IIRC was rated to withstand something like 2KVDC for a short period.

  In my case I did not heed my own advice, and I used a .47 uf / 400V Black Cat. It worked great for about a year, and then one day I had way too much voltage...The cap shorted.  Cry

Jim
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 07:26:02 AM »

Thanks BFS...beefus for starting a fresh topic. May have been mentioned before, but new Ham Operators/members to AMFONE enjoying the older technology, would benefit reading this.
Unfortunately the only tube unit in the shack is my faithful R390A and I go out of my way to ALWAYS have spare tube rectifiers. Expensive and still around here and there, but I keep several spares. It's on 24/7 and I replaced them once since 1998. Electrolytics in the power supply is another story.
The radio is powered by an old RCA TV isolation transformer set for output voltage of 110vac. The radio is not subjected to the 130volts we see now!
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 01:57:07 AM »

Ive read this with great attention, thanks.
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 02:06:51 AM »


 we need to take the now unused rectifier filament winding and buck the primary winding ...


Can you describe how this should or can be done?

Tnx.
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KA2DZT
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 10:39:53 AM »


 we need to take the now unused rectifier filament winding and buck the primary winding ...


Can you describe how this should or can be done?

Tnx.

Connect the filament winding in series with the primary winding, BUT you have to find the correct phase.  Meaning, you may connect it wrong and it will raise the voltages.  If this happens, reverse the filament leads.  You may need a variac to keep the voltages low while you are finding the correct phase.

Fred

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KA2PTE
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2021, 07:41:39 PM »

Interesting topic indeed.

I have a heathkit KS-1 power supply thats a choke input with the stock bleeder array.
Its got 1N2637 diodes in place of the original tube diodes. I took the filament trqnsformer secondary acting like a choke from being inline with the big choke figuring it may be redundancy, but after reading the bleeder is carefully calculated to work with the choke input coil, I wonder if its a major concern?

https://www.mediafire.com/view/1x8qrtpsar49a89/KS1_mod.jpg/file

Also I wanted to mod the plate relay so its only engaging in TX mode with the linear, but after reading this, perhaps its not so desirable? When I transmit, with the linear properly tuned, which could be upwards of legal limit, it would be presenting more load than the bleeder and from what I understand could throw it out of regulation? Also I guess it would mean more wear and tear on the ss diodes, but I could put in a large snubber as described, but tampering with the regulation concerns me, so I likely will not go that way. It seems to be a waste of power, about 200W in standby
to just make sure there is proper regulation all the time, but I suppose theres no other way.






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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2021, 01:36:16 AM »

just an opinion, could be wrong.
Something I noticed is that when the choke is 'large' (like 10x) compared to the critical inductance at a given output current, the current waveform through each rectifier can approach a very squarish wave, meanwhile, the voltage across the diode is still a half cycle of a sine, and the choke ripple curent decrease though a very solid DC current flows. The transformer voltage when the switching occurs is about at polarity cross-over, so although both diodes being ON simultaneously could make a short on the transformer, it's at a the lowest potential part of the cycle, around cross over.
This condition at the extreme may reduce the time allowed for one solid state rectifier to fully turn off before the other turns on to much less than 1ms.

Maybe it's a possible explanation for power supplies that randomly blow up at light loads. I have not tried to simulate it. It would not be very clear in PSUD. At least LTspice, or better, Micro-Cap would be informative. The effect is slight, but reducing the parasitic values -mainly series resistance- of transformer, choke, and capacitor should magnify it a bit for the purpose of observation.

An academic observation perhaps, since snubbers and other measures have been suggested for dealing with rectifier turn off time.
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