What a difference ! Power Line Noise solution

[K1JJ]

I woke up early yesterday morning to hear the power company truck outside working on our 1-phase HV power lines at the pole - about 7KV. There is also 3-phase about 200 yards away.  Didn't think much of it and went back to sleep.  Today I noticed they installed NEW HV insulators on the pole at the house.  Then I looked down the street and saw they replaced many of them that I could see!   All without dropping power.

I'd been calling them for years about arcing noise on my receiver. I've had times with 10-20db over 9,  raw, nasty 60 hz buzzing. I even walked down the street with a sniffer and told them the locations to look at.

I didn't get anal and call the FCC cuz I usually get on at night and the band noise covers it up, so no big deal to me.

Well, today after seeing the changes I listened to 75M in the AM detector mode and there was an S0 noise level. In 25 years living here I've never heard it so quiet... like no noise at all!  There were times in the past when it stayed around S8 for weeks, but sometimes got a bug up its ass and got so loud I thought a transformer was on fire.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I had no idea that doing a routine changing of insulators could almost completely eliminate all 60HZ power line noise. I always thought there would be SOME leakage, but evidently new, clean insulators can keep things pretty quiet.  The nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away, so finally get to see what a quiet location sounds like.

BTW, the power lines run about 1/2 mile in the direction of my house. They act just like a long wire antenna with gain. Even when there was a small problem down the street, there were certain frequencies on 75M that got LOUD due to the in-phase adding. That is one reason I liked directive receiving antennas. It was mandatory at times.

T

[WA2TTP Steve]

Glad they fixed it. I'm sure you'll feel better when you get your next electric bill! Watch for a hidden
Insulator surcharge buried in your bill.

Steve

[K1JJ]

I'll bet they're saving money from less loss.

Just did a walk down the street and did a close look. It appears they did not replace all the insulators, just specific ones. Maybe 1/2 were replaced. I can tell by the bright white new ones and the older brown style.

Does anyone know their procedures.... do they use a sniffer that can be placed close to an insulator and discriminate from one to another that are spaced within 4' apart?   I notice in many spots they replaced two on a three phase pole and left the old one in place.

Either way, I just checked the band and it's still at an S0 noise level. Hope it's not a fluke day and I'm fooling myself. This hot WX at 95 degrees may have something to do with it. Time will tell.

T

[W3RSW]

Fantastic Thomas!
I guess honey does catch a few flies, even these days.

Maybe they look for carbon tracks or something. Did you notice if they climbed or bucketed every pole.? Might be a clue to their method. Is the wire wrap or fastening method different over time?  I doubt if they kept accurate enough records to indicate replacement times of the older Insulators. -But most utilities have somewhat accurate pole numbers and line maps. 

[flintstone mop]

I forget the exact procedure. Either an RF sniffing device or infrared looking for hot spots.

[KL7OF]

Tom.....Enjoy!!

[AJ1G]

The also can use an acoustic sniffer that uses a heterodyne mixer to translate ultrasonic acoustic energy from arcing down into the audible range.  Has a sensor with a small parabolic dish to focus the energy that they point at suspect arcing locations.

[W3GMS]

Tom,
Having going through many times with our utility company, I find they are getting better at finding the noises.  Generally they start with a special "wand" receiver and yagi up around 320 MHz.  At that frequency the noise appears very directional and it usually leads them right to the pole or poles with the problem.  Then they have this neat parabolic acoustical dish that is extremely directional.  From the ground they can then find the exact trouble spot, be it a cracked insulator or loose hardware.  The more difficult cases are when the noise is not in real close to our stations.  When a noise is out some distance you can't hear it up on 320 MHz unless your really close to it.  Our utility company has another receiver which covers from 500 KHz to 1 GHz, AM of coarse.  It has a wide IF pass-band.   This receiver will also digitally capture the signature of the noise.  They connect this receiver to the Ham's antenna and listen and capture the noise on the offending frequency that the customer is complaining about.  Then its digitally stored and the display is a bar graph spectrum format.  Then they connect this receiver to the antenna on the utility truck and go looking for a noise with the same digital signature.  In my case about a month ago, my noise was about 2 1/2 miles from my house.  The source of the noise was a 34KV primary that had come disconnected from the insulator and was laying on the cross arm!  Right near the cross arm was the galvanized hardware so it was quite the noise source!  The top  of the pole and cross arm was burnt, but not bad enough to change the pole out.  What took the time was finding my noise since it was so far away.  They really don't have a way to DF noise on HF.  I think a Pixel loop would really help since you could determine at least in two possible directions where the noise was coming from.  I was very impressed on how well the digital signature capture method was so effective in finding my particular noise.   Prior to using this technique, they would just look for noisy poles.  I had a pole probably within 300 years of my place that has some insulator issues.  They fixed that and it made absolutely no impact on my particular noise which was very surprising.  So now I have no more powre line noise and life is good! 

This digital signature method is taught by Mike Martin who is a Ham.  He has a noise locating business out of Maryland.  Our local utility uses his services for training their Power Quality staff.  On really difficult cases, they actually hire him to find noises that they cannot locate. 

Here is a link and scroll down halfway and you will see his take on the subject. 

http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise

Joe, W3GMS                 

[WZ5Q]

Howdy Y'all,
I have a small Electrical CoOp and they didn't even know they were responsible for their noise. Their problem was they did not have the man power, the knowledge, or the equipment to locate these noise sources. I struck a deal with them after many, many conversations. I will locate the noise down to the offending component, right a detailed report indicating the findings, and they will come out and fix it. Sure its not my job, but in order to get things done sometimes you have to go over and above. Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.

I use many different things to track down the offending noise sources. Usually the direction of the offending noise can be determined with the HF Beam if it goes high enough in frequency, which most sources will depending on the generator. If it goes into the 2m portion of the band, that is a plus for me as I can use my EME Array and Google Satellite Maps to pinpoint it's direct compass heading.

For lower Band frequencies, like 75 or 160m, the noise will usually be on the AM Broadcast band as well. I have an antenna booster Loop that is very directional and you can get the general direction of the source by nulling it out with this antenna. Of course it will be in one of the 2 directions and you will have to hunt for it in both directions.

Once I know the right direction, I use a Kenwood HT All Mode that receives DC to Daylight with an external antenna on the truck as well as the AM Broadcast radio in the truck to get in the general vicinity. I then get out and pound the ground using a yagi for 2m to get close to the poles, then switch to a 70cm yagi to locate the exact location.

Once the offending power pole is located, I will switch to a HomeBrew Ultrasonic Parabolic detector to find the offending component on the pole. This thing has such a narrow beam width that I can actually find the arc. You have to move all around in different directions because the noise source has to be in direct line of sight. If it is hidden behind something you will not get a definite reading. In this case, I break out the Stealth Tactics. I will go out on a moonless night and use my night vision equipment to locate the source.

I have been able to purge my area of the offending noises, and most of the intermittent ones as well. There are all sorts of ways out there to find them, but each noise tends to be unique and the same technique will not work on all of them. Sometimes you have to get creative.

To keep from getting Shot and to keep the questions down to a minimum, I will usually wear a yellow or red reflective vest and carry a clip board to mimic the Service Personnel. If questioned, I just tell them I am subcontracting out for the Power CoOp to locate possible noise pollution sources.

Here are some pics of my Home Brew Ultrasonic Detector.

Take Care,

[W2ZE]

That's one of the benefits of my new QTH here in MD, I have underground power. I have an S1 noise level, where in eat my Shortsville, I have S7-8 with 20-40 over momentarily at dusk when the street lights turned on. Got so bad that I threw rocks at the offending light until I smashed it out, then the village would come and replace it. If I axed them to replace it, they never would. Surprised they didn't put 2 and 2 together....

[WZ5Q]

I have S7-8 with 20-40 over momentarily at dusk when the street lights turned on. Got so bad that I threw rocks at the offending light until I smashed it out, then the village would come and replace it. If I axed them to replace it, they never would.

It's funny how rogue munitions seem to find those offenders...

[W3GMS]

That's one of the benefits of my new QTH here in MD, I have underground power. I have an S1 noise level, where in eat my Shortsville, I have S7-8 with 20-40 over momentarily at dusk when the street lights turned on. Got so bad that I threw rocks at the offending light until I smashed it out, then the village would come and replace it. If I axed them to replace it, they never would. Surprised they didn't put 2 and 2 together....

Underground power does not help me here Mike!  I thought that would help but in my case the noise has been typically 2 or more miles out.  It does not take much of an arc to radiate quite far on HF.

Hope your doing well.

Joe, GMS 

[K1JJ]

Mike, WZ5Q:

Those are some great toys you have.  Well thought out and light-years ahead of the average bloke for sure. I especially like the ultra sonic approach - and especially the comment that every noise source is different and it often takes multiple techniques to zero in.

The yellow vest and clip board is a great idea.  In this day and age, we could have the cops axing questions in a heartbeat otherwise.

Mike, ZE: Yep, nothing like underground power. Funny about stoning the bad lights.  Now that we have quiet QTHs we shud feel guilty not getting on and taking advantage of it...

Joe, thanks for the detailed info and experiences from your battles.

Rick, they use twist-on wire fasteners, so can work with hot wires.  I didn't see them work, but they usually use two men and a bucket truck.



I just ran some more tests using the FT-1000D. It has a calibrated S meter, 50uV = S9.    On 75M,  using ANY 75M antenna and using LSB product detector, the noise is S0.    

Using the AM diode detector, (worst case) beaming SE toward the power lines, the noise is S3.  Beaming NE the noise is S2.  Beaming west or wnw, the noise is virtually S0.   So there is still some slight leakage from the lines, but it is now down at least 30-40dB from what it was before.  In some cases down -50dB on bad days.  I am very pleased and couldn't axe for more.


T

[ka1bwo]

Tom,
Glad to hear your story, power line noise can really kill the fun of this hobby. When I was in Westerly I had a power line noise issue. It really pissed me off how the power company was so slow on doing anything. It actually took National Grid almost a year to replace a few insulator. What I found was on rainy days the noise level was reduced or gone.
Joe

I woke up early yesterday morning to hear the power company truck outside working on our 1-phase HV power lines at the pole - about 7KV. There is also 3-phase about 200 yards away.  Didn't think much of it and went back to sleep.  Today I noticed they installed NEW HV insulators on the pole at the house.  Then I looked down the street and saw they replaced many of them that I could see!   All without dropping power.

I'd been calling them for years about arcing noise on my receiver. I've had times with 10-20db over 9,  raw, nasty 60 hz buzzing. I even walked down the street with a sniffer and told them the locations to look at.

I didn't get anal and call the FCC cuz I usually get on at night and the band noise covers it up, so no big deal to me.

Well, today after seeing the changes I listened to 75M in the AM detector mode and there was an S0 noise level. In 25 years living here I've never heard it so quiet... like no noise at all!  There were times in the past when it stayed around S8 for weeks, but sometimes got a bug up its ass and got so loud I thought a transformer was on fire.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I had no idea that doing a routine changing of insulators could almost completely eliminate all 60HZ power line noise. I always thought there would be SOME leakage, but evidently new, clean insulators can keep things pretty quiet.  The nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away, so finally get to see what a quiet location sounds like.

BTW, the power lines run about 1/2 mile in the direction of my house. They act just like a long wire antenna with gain. Even when there was a small problem down the street, there were certain frequencies on 75M that got LOUD due to the in-phase adding. That is one reason I liked directive receiving antennas. It was mandatory at times.

T

[W1AEX]

The new composite insulators are awesome Tom. Back in 2007 Northeast Utilities came through and replaced all the street poles that feed my area. They run along the Farmington river and pass about 500 feet south of me. They were really beat up from weather and moisture. That eliminated nearly all the persistent noise at my location. Then last year they replaced a line out in the woods that was used to back-feed the area if the main distribution line suffered damage. That really cleaned up the last of it. The composite insulators do not use tie wires, which were the big noise makers here. They also don't flinch when the kids decide to fire a few rounds at them with their .22's out in the woods. They still need to rebuild the single phase poles on my street, which are over 60 years old. They are generally quiet but will kick up when there is a major change in the moisture in the air during the spring and fall. When the hardware gets noisy I find the pole and call it in to them and they come out and replace the old stuff. The picture is of my last adventure with them where they rebuilt pole 1124. After the two bucket trucks left, all the lights in the neighborhood started flickering. As it turned out, the splice was failing and the work they did must have aggravated it. They rolled a truck and put a splice across the splice to "fix" it. Ah well, at least it's quiet! Glad you got some upgrades there!

Rob W1AEX

[kb3ouk]

They still use ceramic insulators with tie wires around here, in fact my grandparents still had copper running to their house up until this spring, the power company came and replaced everything, wires, poles, even the pole pig. The new insulators are ceramic ones, very much like the ones on the old copper line, but I think the new ones might be scaled up a little in size.

[AJ1G]

Back when I had an A3 tribander here, I had a really high noise level on 10 meters that peaked very sharply  on the beam on a northeast bearing.  I notified NE Utilities about it and they sent out a crew to investigate.  They headed out in the direction of the bearing and quickly found a pole pig in the next neighborhood over that was arcing badly internally and was on the verge of a nasty major crap out.  They were very happy that I was able to point them in the right direction.  And the noise levels on 10 meters were of course way down after the fix.

[K1JJ]

Back when I had an A3 tribander here, I had a really high noise level on 10 meters that peaked very sharply  on the beam on a northeast bearing.  I notified NE Utilities about it and they sent out a crew to investigate.  They headed out in the direction of the bearing and quickly found a pole pig in the next neighborhood over that was arcing badly internally and was on the verge of a nasty major crap out.  They were very happy that I was able to point them in the right direction.  And the noise levels on 10 meters were of course way down after the fix.

Good story.

Several years ago I was into 6M.  When beaming NE towards Europe I heard a bad arcing noise like a welder that was 20 dB over.  It was killing any chance of hearing Eu.  I was baffled cuz there are woods for about a mile going NE.

I drove my truck around the next hill in a neighbourhood about 1 mile NE. Listening to my AM radio I heard nothing until I passed a pole pig in front of this McMansion.  It almost ripped the cars speakers it was so loud... ;-)  That pole pig sounded like it was about to explode.

From experience, I knew the power company didn't respond well to reports about problems far away. They liked to hear from the source. (They have since changed their attitude after getting beat up about their poor hurricane response)

I went up to the McMansion and knocked on the door.  The OM came to the door. I politely told him I was a neighbor and an elec engr. I told him as I drove by, my AM radio indicated a severe problem with his pole transformer.. and it might catch on fire anytime...  (And this was the truth)  That's all he needed to hear and said he'd make a call right away.

The next day the arcing was gone on my 6M radio. Guess the the McMan freaked out.

The power company shud be thankful there are concerned people like ourselves rather than their responding  evasively or trying to come up wid excuses.  But thangs seem to be changing for the better.

T

[W3GMS]

Here are a few pictures of my latest line noise issue on the 34KV primary located 2 miles from me.  You can see the middle wire on the cross arm and how the wire is completely off the insulator and near the hardware. 
Joe, GMS 

[W3GMS]

Here is the last one. 

[W1AEX]

Joe, one word... "Yikes!"

Rob W1AEX

[K1JJ]

Here is the last one. 

Man, Joe - at 34KV, I can't imagine the leakage current into that wet pole when it rained.


I'll bet someone who was standing with one foot on the ground wire and touched that pole wud feel it.

T

[W3GMS]

They were "shocked" when they saw the problem.  They were so concerned that they fixed it right in the middle of a major thunderstorm.  I am sure if left undone, it would have been a major problem. 

When talking to my line noise guy with PECO, he said since going to 34KV problem they have been having lots of noise issues mainly reported by Ham's.  He said "thank god" for cable and Fios otherwise he said the complaint list would be much longer.  They tried to do a 18KV distribution, but did not win that battle.  The 34KV they are not allowed to work on hot.  So another crew comes in after the line is shut down which means a temporary outage depending on where the isolation switches are located.  Another big problem has been the 34KV lightning arrestors called LA in the business.  Some out of the box would partially conduct and create noise out the wazoo, then they would ultimately explode.  They disqualified the original source and the new vendor parts seem to be fine.  Due to manpower, they only replace the LA's when a problem is reported. 

Joe, GMS   

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Always had good luck with the power company back north. Discovered after calling one time that the fellow in charge of maintenance was a ham which was nice to know. My bane was those damned low pressure sodium streetlights that went bad regularly and would cycle on and off. The closest ones were the worst of course, but I'd hear them from all over town. Track down with the truck radio, get the pole number, call. A pita, but at least they'd get fixed that way. Otherwise it could be months.

One low tech way of finding a less obvious/intermittent noisy pole (which the power company now frowns on) was taught to me by a retired lineman: smack the side of the pole with a sledge hammer. It'll rattle things around up top if they're loose.

Hope you're still enjoying the silence, Tommy.

[Opcom]

I'm glad for you on the power noise situation. If it's so quiet, you might get longer DX