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Author Topic: acceptable power supply ripple in modulator?  (Read 9877 times)
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NR5P
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« on: June 20, 2013, 09:10:15 PM »

I'm wanting to eventually build a modulator based on 4 1625's.  Similar to this http://www.arizona-am.net/PHOENIX/NA7RH/4x1625_sch.gif 

I'm trying to find the amount of capacitance needed in the power supply (full wave bridge) capacitance input filter(no choke).  Modulator is running AB1 plate voltage is 750.  So all 4 is about 140 watts at 50-60% for ab1.  So that would be about 210 watts, so about 280ma right?(hv supply only) ?  The ARRL book I have says .01% ripple MINIMUM for audio amplifiers.  What is a good percentage ripple to use to not have to worry about any noticeable hum from the power supply? Thanks
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WD5JKO
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 08:05:35 AM »

Nathan,

   The ripple permissible depends on the signal level in each stage of an audio amplifier chain. The low level input stages need almost pure DC to avoid hum pickup, and going to a high level plate supply to a modulator might be ok to have up to 5% ripple. A push pull plate modulation transformer will cancel out any 120 hz ripple common to both plates since the ripple is common mode.

   Another factor to consider is power supply impedance. Pulling power from a power supply at an audio rate will modulate the power supply somewhat. This gets worse at the lower audio frequencies where the output filter capacitor impedance rises. To make matters worse, supplies with a choke (pi C-L-C or choke input L-C) all go through a resonance somewhere in the lower audio range (usually < 300 hz). So at resonance the power supply ripple might go to 50% or more. In the day when filter capacitors were expensive, and values of 8 uf or 16 uf were common place along with a big magnetic choke, it was wise to limit the low end audio frequency response to no less then 300 hz. Going lower would be frustrating as the power supply might resonant at a bass audio frequency (maybe 80-100hz) and the ripple spike upward. So ripple is only one factor. the other is power supply impedance.

   So without a choke, full wave doubler, or full wave bridge rectification, it is easy to do since capacitors are much cheaper, smaller, and more reliable these days. If this was for an audio amp going down to 20 hz at full power, I'd say use 1000 mfd / amp of load. For less bass then that, 750V @ 1/4 amp, I'd say use a minimum of 100 mfd. Something like a pair of 220 mfd @ 450V in series with equalizing resistors would do.

Edit: The general trend I see over and over about putting two capacitors rated 450V in series is this makes a 900V capacitor since we equalize any leakage imbalance with equalizing resistors. This is not entirely true. First the equalizing currents need to be at least 5X the capacitor leakage currents, and those leakage currents vary over temperature, time, and applied voltage. The other big gotcha is capacitor MFD tolerance variations during charge/discharge where these currents far exceed the equalizing currents from the resistors. So if the capacitors are rated at say 100 mfd +/- 20% that means you could have one at 80 mfd, and the other at 120 mfd. The smaller capacitor will have more voltage across itself during charge/discharge excursions. I am not going to do the math here, but if you plan to make a 900V capacitor out of two 450v units, you better match their capacity in MFD. The hand held 'C' meters often lie since the leakage currents might influence the reading. I like to do an R-C charge-discharge up to the rated voltage. For example see this link:

http://www.foothill.edu/~marasco/labfive/


   If you are going to switch the B+ with the PTT line, then a step-start might be a good addition.

Jim
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AB2EZ
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 10:27:22 AM »

Adding to what Jim has already said:

In a typical vacuum tube audio chain (E.g. a Johnson Ranger), additional filtering is included on the B+ supplied to lower level stages. This additional filtering takes the form of a series resistor added to the B+ line feeding each tube, plus a bypass capacitor to ground on the tube side of that resistor. This additional filtering accomplishes two purposes: it reduces residual hum on the B+ applied to the low level stages, and it isolates the stages (sharing the same B+ bus) from each other.

For example, if you look at the Johnson Ranger schematic ... and the first audio stage (microphone preamplifier - V7a), there is a 220kohm resistor added in series with the 300V B+ supply bus (R20), bypassed to ground by a 0.1uF capacitor (C51). Since the average plate current in V7a is low (about 0.33 mA), the voltage drop across the 220kohm resistor is less than 75 volts. The associated RC time constant is 0.1uF x 220kohms = .022 seconds. This means that this RC circuit is a low pass filter whose 3dB rolloff frequency is 7Hz. As a result, there is about 24dB of additional reduction of 120Hz ripple in the plate voltage supplied to V7a versus the 300V B+ supply bus. Some recommended mods to the Johnson Ranger (e.g. WA1HLR's mods http://www.amwindow.org/tech/htm/ranger.htm) increase this extra ripple filtering on the B+ of V7a by increasing the value of C51 from 0.1uF to more than 10uF (along with other changes).

Separately, with respect to the ripple on the HV supply's output: (for those who are comfortable with a little math...)

For a fixed power supply output current, I (for example: I= 120mA), you can calculate the ripple at the output of a capacitor input, full wave rectifier-based power supply as follows:

The ripple waveform is approximately a sawtooth waveform that has a 120Hz repetition rate. In each cycle, the voltage across the output capacitor drops by: dV (volts) = (I/120Hz)/C. At the end of each cycle, the voltage rises back up to its full value.

For example, if C=50uF, and I=120mA... then the peak-to-peak amplitude of the sawtooth (hum) waveform is dV(volts) = (120ma/120Hz)/50uF = 20 volts. If the average output voltage of the supply is 600VDC, then the peak to peak ripple will be 20V/600V = 3.3%.

[Note: As Jim has already pointed out: for a choke input, full wave rectifier-based power supply, with the same value of C, and delivering the same fixed 120mA current, the residual 120Hz ripple would be considerably smaller... but the unfavorable effects of low frequency audio components in the modulated current being drawn from the supply could be greater]

Although not answering your question directly ("acceptable power supply ripple on the modulator")... when I have modulated the B+ on homebrew plate modulated transmitters (also Class E FET-based transmitters), I have found that keeping the peak to peak 120Hz ripple on the unmodulated B+ supply below 2% of the average B+ supply voltage makes the residual power supply hum inaudible to people listening to my signal.

Stu

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WD5JKO
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »



 I am wondering about the ripple calculation where we take the AC peak to peak, divide by the DC value, then multiple by 100 to get percentage ripple. This seems commonplace, but is this valid? Perhaps taking the RMS AC ripple divided by the DC voltage would be more correct? Otherwise we are comparing apples to oranges?  Undecided

Jim
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AB2EZ
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 01:35:26 PM »

Jim

You are correct.

If you are trying to achieve a target amount of ripple, specified in terms of the RMS ripple; and the ripple waveform is (approximately) a saw tooth having a peak-to-peak value of dV (fast rise, followed by a linear decline)... then you would need to calculate the rms value of a sawtooth having a peak-to-peak value of dV (volts).

The formula is [for a sawtooth ripple waveform having a peak-to-peak value equal to dV (volts]:

rms ripple (volts) = dV x .577 [where 0.577 is approximately the square root of 1/3]

Stu
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NR5P
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2013, 10:06:51 AM »

Thanks for the detailed explanation.  I learn so much on these boards.  Now if I could just focus on one radio project and stick to it.  I'm sure I'll need much more help when I get to the modulation transformer.  Hope to talk to you on the air some time soon Jim.  Going out to our new place today to do some more work.  At least we are finally working in air conditioning now! 
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WD5JKO
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2013, 03:30:17 PM »

Thanks for the detailed explanation.  I learn so much on these boards.  Now if I could just focus on one radio project and stick to it.  I'm sure I'll need much more help when I get to the modulation transformer.  Hope to talk to you on the air some time soon Jim.  Going out to our new place today to do some more work.  At least we are finally working in air conditioning now! 

Nathan,

   The modulation transformer topic is discussed at length here:

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=27244.msg207633;topicseen#msg207633

I will look for you on 40 or 80...might possibly hear you on 20m during the Monday evening 20M AM Net. Starts around 6 pm central on 14,330 +/-.

Jim
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 03:57:41 PM »

Nate,

Is your 'no choke' requirement because of chassis real estate shortages, or just a case of choke shortage?

The Iron Menace may be able to come to your aid.

73DG
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NR5P
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 08:53:29 PM »

Chassis is plenty big.  I figure I should have plenty of space since I don't know what I'm doing haha.  The modulation deck is basically the size of my apache.  I just figured a choke would complicate things with resonances, and capacitors might be a better way to go because they are cheaper now.  However I did originally want to use a choke power supply design because I have lots of those old oil filled caps...lots.  I also have quiet a few chokes however I don't know the values of them, I guess I need to calculate them.  I have some small ones (2 lbs) and 2 gigantic chokes but nothing in between.  I wouldn't mind doing it the classic way and using a choke power supply.  I guess I should do a little more research into that also.  This is very much a learning experience.  I have built a few kits, link coupled tuner, and a regen tube receiver, and a lot of trouble shooting equipment, but nothing like this.  I probably should start with something simpler.  But I can't really get excited about something I won't use.  I figure this isn't to complicated and after I get it finished a rf amp shouldn't be to much for me(with some time).  Then it will be my main transmitter and I imagine I will change things over the years.  I'm not even in a huge hurry to get it finished, I just want to learn while building it and hopefully have something functional in the end.
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NR5P
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 08:55:51 PM »

btw Jim thanks for the links!  I read a little bit but haven't studied the content of the forum link yet.  It looks to be exactly what I need in beginning to understand more about the mod transformer selection!  This and amforever are amazing web sites.  Thank you all for putting the old books on here.  It sure is helpful.
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