Vertical Antennas

[W2INR]

I want to add a vertical antenna to the antenna system here but I have had little experience with commercial gear. Yes commercial gear is the way I wish to travel on this.

The antenna would be used as an general receive for the sub receiver on my FT 1000d but I would also like to use it on transmit for SSB and low power( or legal limit ) AM on 160 - 10m.

There seems to be three types out there, trap, resonant and non-resonant verticals.

Any experiences or recommendations?

G

[wa3dsp]

You did not mention your budget. The HighGain 18HT high tower is still available at about a grand. I use a Butternut ground mounted vertical with quite a few radials. It has been up for 22 years in my back yard near Philadelphia without a problem. I took it down once for maintenance.  There are tons of verticals out there but I would stay away from trap and radial free designs unless you don't have the room.

[WQ9E]

I put up a 18HT about 10 years ago now.  I am not sure if the MFJ version base insulators were inferior or if it was from the heavy winds here in IL but the insulators failed about 4 years after installation.  The Hy Tower was in the clear and neither it nor anything else was damaged.  MFJ sent a new insulator setup and I also decided to guy it with some non-conductive guying material and so far no problems for years.

For 160 I didn't like either of the MFJ/Hy Gain options which are either a larger base loading coil or an inverted L (with trap) from the top of the main structure.  Both, at least what was available at the time, limited you to far less than the legal limit on 160.  I added a 40 meter trap (to prevent the added parts from de-tuning 40) with a 10 foot top section to provide a little more vertical to my added L section.  I then ran a wire from this added piece over to my main Rohn 55G tower and it is cut so that it is a little long for 160 (inductively reactive).  For 160 the Hy Tower operates as an inverted L and in series with the feed line are 5 capacitors (to cancel the inductive reactance) constructed of RG-11 coax which allow selecting segments of 160 with a BC-375 "tap" switch.  I use another of these tap switches to choose taps on the included base coil for matching across 80/75 meters. 

My Hy Tower is in a pasture area with a good ground setup and it works sell on all bands including 160.  It doesn't compare with the multi-element quad on higher bands but works quite well.  For closer in work on 80/75 I find my full wave horizontal loop is better and does a great job covering the midwest. If you are in a more protected/lower wind area you probably won't need the added guy lines which would make it less intrusive and easier for mowing around.

[W7TFO]

Commercial (broadcast?) and all bands is a tough nut without a lot of moving parts or silly traps, skirts, eTc.

153' is 5/8u on 75, and a bit long for 1/4u on 160.  That way you get a great launch angle on the higher Hz.

A simple ATU with relays & matching nets, she'll run forever.

Put up two at 90 deg apart and just flop the feedlines for N-S-EW without a phasor.

That is what s going up here later.

Wire for 40-20-10.

73DG

[DMOD]

A 43' vertical like the S9 works well with one of these:

http://www.ad5x.com/images/Articles/Match43footerRevA.pdf

For 80m there's the DX Engineering vertical:

http://www.dxengineering.com/search/department/antennas/part-type/hf-vertical-antennas-and-packages/product-line/dx-engineering-80-meter-full-size-quarter-wave-heavy-duty-vertical-antennas?autoview=SKU

Phil - AC0OB

[Dave K6XYZ]

It's pretty hard to beat a Hy-Gain Hi-Tower.
I was determined to put this up properly so I stapled to the ground 90 70' radials....that's 6300' of wire.
All radial wire, staples, radial plate and VFCC balun is from DXE.
It works gangbusters with a calculated 86% efficiency.
You can reduce the price considerably by shopping around. Ham stores don't stock it because it comes in a long crate.
The best price was from WB0W....a mom and pop dealer that goes to most all the Midwest fests.
Call em'....they will call MFJ and get a price and call you back. The factory drop ships to your door.
MFJ has done a great job with this antenna....it is much better than the earlier versions from Hy-Gain.
It had been around a long time when I got my ticket back in 60'.
It's the best of the all band verticals....no 43' nonsense here!

Dave

[flintstone mop]

Using an Amateur product, I would agree with Dave that the HyTower is the only Ham vertical you would need. BUT it does not shine on 160M, if that is your focus.
What bands are you thinking about?
Vertical is telling us that you are attempting to DX. (low angle radiation) The 43 foot vertical ONLY shines on 20M ( 5/8 wave). QST did a nice study on that and gave results a year ago. It is not the magic bullet.

[KM1H]

At a prior home I had a 100' tower with a stack of 4el 10-20M monobanders shunt fed on 160. With 120 radials varying from 60-130' over soil that is best described as beach sand 30 miles inland performance wasnt good and I stood in line in pileups for hours at times.
Then I did some reading and realized that maximum current was at the base and going out from there and the radials left a lot of open space between them.

Reading the local weekly sell and swap rag (pre Internet) I came across 5 rolls of rabbit fencing that was only a few months old and priced low. This was 2x4" mesh of heavy steel wire that was welded, hot dip galvanized, and then plastic dipped. The rolls were 4' wide and 50' long, rolled out as wheel spokes and after a lot of stripping bits of plastic and wiring mesh overlaps, inside ends to the #6 copper grounding ring and other ends to the radials I was ready for some testing.

Overnight it was a fantastic performer and the gang on the local 220 MHz DX repeater were accusing me of using an afterburner amp. In no time I had DXCC confirmed, won a 160M CW contest and 2 all band DX contests, both modes, plus passed 200 DXCC before moving. Cost was very low since I refuse to waste money on overpriced stuff from DXE and others that cater to credit card hams....no offense but I got into his hobby the old way in the 50's.

The soldering spots on the mesh were coated with spray automotive undercoating and the grass grew fast enough to mow by the following spring.

When I moved the mesh and radials came with me but here I went with elevated radials with a pair of 1/4 wave wires hanging off the top guys of the 160' tower at an angle. Now 180' after a direct hit lightning strike and a massive wind storm broke a leg of 45G right below the top plate with a 4el 40M KLM leaning out at a 30 degree angle; that repair job is a seperate story

The mesh is still rolled up out in the woods and looking fine 24 years later.

Carl

[K5UJ]

There are some important bits of information not being given.  A description of the site for the antenna would be nice to have.  what are its dimensions?  how much room is available.  What are nearby objects if any?

[K1JJ]

The pictures Dave posted above tell a lot.   A vertical performs best with a flat, cleared area for at least 1 mile around it, depending on freq.    The majority of us live in areas that have houses, power lines and other obstructions within a wavelength to attenuate and distort a vertcal's pattern.  

Then, we must contend with ground conductivity. Few have excellent soil and give back more dB there too.

I have tried every vertical combo know to man here. I have poor ground, due to rock ledge - and also towers in the near field that will kill the pattern. Thus I stay with horizontals that don't care about Earth ground and do well with houses and towers in the field.

There may be many uses for a receiving vertical and worth a shot with a simple stick - but a transmitting vertical system is very difficult to get to approach the performance of a simple dipole at 1/4 to 1/2 wave high, considering the many obstacles.

That said, Big G   - Probably the best and most expensive - DX Engineering has an 8-vertical receiving array that a friend uses on 75M for DX receiving only. It is eight in a circle and similar to once used by the FCC for DFing. He claims it works about as well as his 3el 75M rotary Yagi for RX. His call is WW1WW... Woody. You might send him an email and get more info to see if it might work in some form for your own requirements.

Other than that, I think the obstacles (ground and obstructions)  will have the biggest effect, no matter what vertical system you choose.  Even a simple Gotham vertical will perform stellar on the ocean or in a rich-soil flat cow pasture.    In contrast, an AM broadcash tower with 1000 radials will be a dummy load when set up in downtown New York City...  


T

[KM1H]

And there is also this
http://www.hizantennas.com/8_element_arrays.htm

There are then various sites on how to build your own at a fraction the cost

[WD8BIL]

G,

Checkout Dave W9AD's setup.

Buddly

http://www.w9ad.com/antenna.htm

[WBear2GCR]

Gary,

Do you not have a tower up there now, or have you moved ur QTH?

I would think that a Wire going up the side(s) of the tower with a remote tunah at the base would salve your problems??

The other thing that I have heard of that works well is the Quad of verticals with a phase shifter (feedlines) for steering it...

                        _-_-

[W3RSW]

The HI tower is probably the most buzzardly multi-band vert. But requires many ground running radials on top the grass or not very deeply imbedded.

From all that I've read recently. An elevated vertical with elevated ground plane of as few as four radials will surpass a ground mounted one with many radials, for sure on one band. (Think 11 meters )

If I were going commercial, I agree with others specifying the Hi Tower. I like the idea of the extended "L" off the top for 160 But tough to use this on other bands. Coupling at the top is the problem.  A good HV, strapping relay is a bit heavy for the top of the whip.  . ..not to mention coupling to the control lines if run down the same tower.

So  I think if several of the radials are cut for optimum, (not necessararily 1/4 tau) on 160, then a base loading coil will give acceptable results.  After all, most of the time 160 is a gnash of power liner noise, atmospherics and absorption. But when it's hot, clear and perfect ,then just about any good signal gets through FB.

[KM1H]

The other thing that I have heard of that works well is the Quad of verticals with a phase shifter (feedlines) for steering it...

Quad is an audiophool term

For verticals it is commonly called a 4 Square and is very popular on 160 and 80 when space is available; a pair can be phased to provide 2 cardiod and a figure 8 pattern.
Elevated radials have also reached into the mainstream as more discover that they usually blow away the ground mounted versions with 16-24 radials being optimum over poor to horrible ground. Ground mounted at salt water still rules the bands.

Carl

[ke7trp]

I have owned the GAP Voyager and the Cushraft R6000.    The GAP was put up so I could get on 160 and 80 after a storm took the tower down.  It worked ok.  But it is just really a vertical dipole with a capacity hat. The other half of the antenna is the feedline.

THe R6000 cushcraft has its own ground radials and requires none.  I installed it on a home made 10 ft tower in the back yard. It worked very well.  I worked ALOT of DX on that antenna. This is what got me on 17 meters in the first place. 

They make one called an R9 now that has 80 and 160.  Its not cheap at $650.  But they really do work. 

Another option would be an "S9" style non resonant 43 ft vertical.  No 160 though.. You can feed these in various ways including an auto tuner at the base.  The price on the auto tuners has come way down and they have full legal limit versions now.  I have worked many with the S9 43 footer.   


Thats all I can offer Gary.. Good luck!

C

[W2INR]

Wow,

There is a lot of info to digest here. Thank you all for the input.

Having been off the air the last few years I am in the process of setting the station back up. I have kept it simple inside with an FT 1000d and amplifier capable of operation from 160 - 10m. So my focus is where the station meets the airwaves.

I have not had an all band station in over 15 years. I was pretty much parked on the 75/80 meter band. So my goal is to have an all band station. I have the 80 meters directional array, so I have 75/80 meters covered and I thought I could put up a dipole balanced fed for the other bands and then have an vertical as another option for 40 on up. The other application for the vertical would be as the receive antenna for the 2nd receiver on the FT 1000D. This of course would allow me to run diversity tuning which I have become accustomed too.

So now I have more info to sift through and then I must commit to the layout and build it.

Thanks again for the information and I hope to have the station and antennas up in the next few weeks before the leaves come back for the summer.

On The Waves

G

[Steve - K4HX]

If you want to spend money, look at the SteppIR verticals. The BigIR covers 40-6 meters (add 80 and 60 meters with the optional loading coil). The SmallIR covers 20-6 meters (with the optional loading coil add 80m, 60m, 40m, 30m but derated to 500w on 80, 60 meters and full power on 40 and 30 meters). The vertical length is changed with stepper motors, so you'll always have a quarter-wavelength radiator (except for the bands where a coil is needed). Although more expensive, this approach is superior to the 43 foot vertical with a tuner because on the higher bands, the 43 vertical produces more high angle radiation and low angle. With the SteppIR you''ll always get low angle radiation.

[K5UJ]

After all, most of the time 160 is a gnash of power liner noise, atmospherics and absorption. But when it's hot, clear and perfect ,then just about any good signal gets through FB.

I don't think that's entirely true and anyway, I don't think 160 as any worse than 75 m. in that regard.  It's not like 10 m. where it is either hot and open or give up and do something else.  Where most hams go wrong with 160 is they think it is just another HF ham band and they can treat it antenna wise, like they do with 40 meters or 80 meters.  So they put up a dipole or inverted V at about 50 feet, are piss weak and go away saying 160 m. is a lousy band; it stinks blah blah.   You have to take a page from medium wave broadcasters since it is a medium wave band, and go with some sort of vertical fed against a ground system.   Few can get a horizontal wire high enough to play the way they do on 40 and up and a beam is out of the question, except for that idiotic yagi in Norway  

Since a vertical stinks on receive (the aforementioned power line noise) some sort of receive loop is needed, and you can benefit from employing one of those 180 degree phase shift null networks if you live in town like I do, for nulling out local noise.  With all of that it can be just as enjoyable as 75 meters.  

Gary it sounds like all you need is an inverted L for 160 and you are covered.  

[W3RSW]

You have a point, of course. 
Weak come back no. 62-43a, .heh, heh. "Most of the time"is based on a 24 hr. day.  And your right in that loop receiving antennae, verticals, understanding ground wave, treating 160 like a BC band, etc is the way to go.

But remember in the old BC phone question pool, " Explain the difference between propagation in lower end of BC band vs. higher," etc.  it was left to the applicant to come up with stark day/night differences related to frequency and ionospheric development, layer changes and more subtle transformations in reception range as the night progressed.

So, as much literature that's been out there since the recapture of 160 from Loran, most hams considering the band have heard all the horror stories about low antennae, horizontal  Vs. vert, etc many times and still the band is way underpopulated, for good reason. Fun locally most of the time but if you want your extended range buddies burps reliably, your on 80 and down.

[WBear2GCR]

Gary, do whatever you wish, but on 20-15-10 for most stuff a rotary beam is perty darn good.

I have heard that a vertical is good for certain DX, but you can't null out anything coming in the back side...

For 40m, take ur pick... depends on what you want to do, if it is local, as in non-DX, then imo a regular simple dipole works fine.

You didn't say if you have a tower or not?

                _-_-

[KM1H]

160 is a great local region daytime band with a low dipole or inverted L with a good part of it horizontal that can work NVIS and groundwave. 
A regular vertical limits you to groundwave or low angles only.

Carl

[Steve - K4HX]

I agree with the spirit of what Rob is saying and some of his technical points. Don't give up on 160 or think you can't put out a good signal or enjoy AM on that band.

A low dipole is usually limiting and an inverted-L is often a better choice. But if a low dipole is all that can be managed, give it a shot! In general, In general, the noise levels are often far worse on 160 meters than 75 meters. World wide average noise measurements shows this trend. The fact that Rob needs to use a loop would indicate the same (and maybe that's what he was saying - the noise IS higher but so what). He didn't let that stop him and built the loop, bravo! If it was easy, anyone could do! That said, my last two QTHs were very quiet on 160 meters (something like 10-15 dB quieter than the previous), so noise isn't always a problem.

Propagation is tougher (except for ground wave) on 160 meters. The amount of per hop absorption is about 2x what it is on 75 meters, so coverage area and often signal levels won't be a good as on 75 meters, usually. 

I say usually because I have noticed many stations within a 150-200 mile radius were usually as strong (and I mean actual S-meter readings) on 160 as they were on 75 meters. And these guys weren't PW on 75 meters! Most of these stations were running a dipole at 60-80 feet. Some were at even lower heights. And a few were using short dipoles (120-180 feet long). These seemingly enhanced signals were most noticeable from about one hour or so before sunset to 1-2 hours after sunset (and especially so in the winter months). Given that the antennas on both ends were far closer to the ground relative to the wavelength on 160 meters (I was using a dipole at 75 feet), it always amazed me that this could happen. I've rarely seen this on more distant stations, except for those with very good or exceptional antennas (e.g. K4KYV with his quarter-wave tower and 120 radials and K1JJ with a 150 foot high dipole).

Has anyone else noticed these sorts of "enhanced" signals. I'm guessing it's an NVIS characteristic (nearly straight up angles traverse less D-layer). Just a wild guess.

[W2INR]

No Towers here Bear,


I am figuring at this point all I need is the ability to get on other bands. If I get interested in a particular band then I could upgrade to a performance antenna system. Right now I want the ability for all bands.

So at this point I see the 75/80 directional array, a 75 - 10 balanced antenna for multi-band work with a remote tuner,  and a short beverage for the secondary receive antenna.  I can upgrade from that point once if I actually use those bands.

G

[WD8BIL]

Here's an idea G,

Put a 40M phased array inside your 80M setup. Simply scale the big one down to work on 40M.
Then put a coax fan dipole for 20-15-10 up. No tuner needed.

I've found trying to make a multiband with 160 included to be somewhat futile. 160M always suffers in the mix.

Buddly