Recording: K3YA, KC2IFR, W3EMD, W2BVM 3875 kHz

[WB4AIO]

There was a lot of Summertime static as you'll hear in the recording below, so reception is not perfect, but it was certainly good to hear this QSO -- especially Charlie, K3YA, who used to talk to me and Chuck, WA4GGL, on AM almost every day back in the 1980s... I sure wish I still had my recordings of those QSOs.

All the stations except BVM had very pleasant good fidelity audio as heard in the 7.5 kHz bandwidth of my Racal (the receiver was off-tuned for the first couple of minutes, by the way, to avoid a heterodyne); Charlie's BC-610 (brought back memories of my BC-610, even down to the relay buzz) and Buzz's KW-1 were fun to hear, and KC2IFR had a really dense, well-processed sound with his Johnson 500.

http://liberty.3950.net/K3YA_W3EMD_KC2IFR_W2BVM_20120622_1030pm_3875kHz.mp3

All the best,


Kevin, WB4AIO.

[K3YA]

Good to hear from you, Kevin.  Thanks for the recording.  I was both pleased and surprised to have some nice QSO's on such a noisy band last night.  Even better to get to re-live them the next day.

I had been off the air for a few years and occupied with chasing DX on 75 and 80M for several years before that.  But now I seem to hove a renewed interest in AM.   

Those were some good old days back in the 1980's.  I have often wondered what ever become of Chuck GGL?

 

[WB4AIO]

Good to hear from you, Kevin.  Thanks for the recording.  I was both pleased and surprised to have some nice QSO's on such a noisy band last night.  Even better to get to re-live them the next day.

I had been off the air for a few years and occupied with chasing DX on 75 and 80M for several years before that.  But now I seem to hove a renewed interest in AM.   

Those were some good old days back in the 1980's.  I have often wondered what ever become of Chuck GGL?

 

Great to hear from you too, Charlie. I remember when you were "the Big QRM Worm"...!

Chuck, WA4GGL, is as sharp as ever and very much still around, but certain challenges are keeping him off the air. I'll PM you with more details.

Has your pretty wife finally realized after all these years that antennas are pretty, too?

73,

Kevin.

[Jim/WA2MER]

All the stations except BVM had very pleasant good fidelity

Nice.  I have been publicly humiliated, and recorded for posterity to boot .  My freebie, bone-stock Apache will suffer the consequences for having brought me to shame.  I will perform surgery on it Civil War battlefield style (without anesthetic) in an attempt to reduce its ability to further embarrass me.

I've found a few mods here and there that I plan to try, the first being a simple changeout of the interstage coupling caps. How far I go with this rig will depend on whether or not I intend to keep it for the long haul.  It's pretty decent  looking, the price was right, and so far it seems to perform as it should for what it is.

Kevin, thanx for the recording. I had planned to leave the Apache stock, but you have motivated me to do a few tweaks.

Jim
W2BVM

[WB4AIO]

All the stations except BVM had very pleasant good fidelity

Nice.  I have been publicly humiliated, and recorded for posterity to boot >:(.  My freebie, bone-stock Apache will suffer the consequences for having brought me to shame.  I will perform surgery on it Civil War battlefield style (without anesthetic) in an attempt to reduce its ability to further embarrass me.

I've found a few mods here and there that I plan to try, the first being a simple changeout of the interstage coupling caps. How far I go with this rig will depend on whether or not I intend to keep it for the long haul.  It's pretty decent  looking, the price was right, and so far it seems to perform as it should for what it is.

Kevin, thanx for the recording. I had planned to leave the Apache stock, but you have motivated me to do a few tweaks.

Jim
W2BVM

Thanks for being such a good sport, Jim! Almost all of us used to run stock audio. Don't blame yourself, blame the old regime (now gone) at the ARRL that pushed narrow audio on all the manufacturers back in the 50s on pain of being banned from advertising in QST.

It's a lot of fun to take a stock, restricted, transmitter like the Apache (I started with a Collins TCS and a Viking Valiant) and make it sound like WGY. And this is the place for tons of free ideas and advice on getting there.

Have a great time,


Kevin, WB4AIO.

[WB2CAU]

Don't blame yourself, blame the old regime (now gone) at the ARRL that pushed narrow audio on all the manufacturers back in the 50s on pain of being banned from advertising in QST.

Kevin, WB4AIO.

Hi Kevin, nice to see you're at least actively listening (and recording) again.  I hope to hear you back on the air someday too. It's been many years since we last QSOed.

I've long heard rumors that the ARRL was responsible for the narrow band restricted AM audio typical of ham equipment of the 50s and early 60s, but have never seen concrete proof that the ARRL was actually "forcing" manufacturers to design that into their products, not that I would expect anything different from the ARRL. 

Were there any articles published in any ham publication or first-hand statements from manufacturers to that effect?  I'd like to see the smoking gun.

Eric

[WB4AIO]

Hi Kevin, nice to see you're at least actively listening (and recording) again.  I hope to hear you back on the air someday too. It's been many years since we last QSOed.

I've long heard rumors that the ARRL was responsible for the narrow band restricted AM audio typical of ham equipment of the 50s and early 60s, but have never seen concrete proof that the ARRL was actually "forcing" manufacturers to design that into their products, not that I would expect anything different from the ARRL. 

Were there any articles published in any ham publication or first-hand statements from manufacturers to that effect?  I'd like to see the smoking gun.

Eric

Great to hear from you, Eric! Glad you can still afford the electricity bill for that 50 kW transmitter of yours... I suppose the new digitally modulated solid state transmitters are pretty efficient. Someday soon, if I can overcome certain obstacles that have been put in my way, I do hope to be back on the air. I've been accumulating some bargain gear to that end.

I don't have a "smoking gun" quote, document, or link on the ARRL/QST forced promotion of narrow, pinched audio via an advertising ban (if anyone does, please pass it along!), but I've seen it discussed here and over the air more than once. I believe Carl, KM1H, is the guy I first heard it from.

The ARRL frustrates me. On the one hand (due in large part, I think, to the goodwill ambassadorship of WA3VJB), there is now -- finally -- some recognition of AM as a valid mode from them, but they still are stuck on the absurd ideas that "narrow = good" and that good engineering practice requires that the "narrowest possible" bandwidth be used to effect communication. (If that idea were fully instituted, no voice modes would be permitted at all.) That's totally contrary to the idea of experimentation, and it's led them to totally ignore (and at times even to oppose) the growing number of ESSB operators who have emerged over the last decade as a real revitalizing force in amateur radio.


73,


Kevin, WB4AIO.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I don't have a "smoking gun" quote, document, or link on the ARRL/QST forced promotion of narrow, pinched audio via an advertising ban (if anyone does, please pass it along!), but I've seen it discussed here and over the air more than once. I believe Carl, KM1H, is the guy I first heard it from.

Back in the "good old days" of the 50's and 60's when we had less phone space, most amateurs were more interested in just plain old communication and not sounding like a hi-fi broadcast station. With belly to belly AM stations on the popular bands during those times and the emergence of the SSB mode on the bands, being wide was not a generally sought out option.

The ARRL frustrates me. On the one hand (due in large part, I think, to the goodwill ambassadorship of WA3VJB), there is now -- finally -- some recognition of AM as a valid mode from them, but they still are stuck on the absurd ideas that "narrow = good" and that good engineering practice requires that the "narrowest possible" bandwidth be used to effect communication. (If that idea were fully instituted, no voice modes would be permitted at all.) That's totally contrary to the idea of experimentation, and it's led them to totally ignore (and at times even to oppose) the growing number of ESSB operators who have emerged over the last decade as a real revitalizing force in amateur radio.

73,

Kevin, WB4AIO.

Without the help of ARRL's Ed Hare, there would be no AM page, no AM Operating and Techniques forum, and no Vintage Gear forum on the ARRL's web site. The ARRL's WAS award over the last several years (implemented around 2002 or 3) has a special endorsement for the AM mode. For several years, monthly QST had a "vintage radio' edition. And, each month there is the "Vintage Radio" column in QST.

You said, "...the absurd ideas that "narrow = good" and that good engineering practice requires that the "narrowest possible" bandwidth be used to effect communication."

For phone (AM/SSB) operation, it makes no sense why would you need more bandwidth for effective communication if you can do it with less bandwidth.

You said, "That's totally contrary to the idea of experimentation, and it's led them to totally ignore (and at times even to oppose) the growing number of ESSB operators who have emerged over the last decade as a real revitalizing force in amateur radio."

SSB was developed to provide reliable and effective communication and allowing more amateurs to occupy a defined frequency slice using a narrower bandwidth then was used for AM. It makes no sense to change this unless the intent is to gobble up additional frequency operating space.

And WOW, it's amazing and monumental that the ESSB operators have been the real revitalizing force in amateur radio.  That phrase had me "rolling on the floor".

[Steve - K4HX]

Pete points out several positive things the ARRL has done in recent years. These were largely the result of ARRL employees with open minds and/or who ran AM themselves (although maybe not die-hard AMers). In other words, insiders helped us out. Regardless of what the ARRL did or didn't do in the past, in general, they have an open mind towards AM and AM gets pretty good coverage in QST and the Handbooks. We would be wise to engage with and support some of these insiders to continue to improve the standing of AM within the ARRL (assuming you give a damn about the ARRL).

The audio quality of SSB I hear on the air has improved dramatically in the past 10 years. More tranceivers allow for audio tailoring and many SSBers are taking the time to tweak their audio. And here I'm talking about the "average" ham on SSB, not the ESSBers. Products like the W2IHY boxes exist because more SSBers have come to realize what AMers always  knew - it's more pleasant to talk to someone on the air when they sound like a human.    Even more than a few DX stations I work have above average to in some cases excellent sounding (for SSB) audio. So the trend is heading away from the communications at all cost sound to something more reasonable. Technology and less crowded bands make this trend possible.

[WB4AIO]

Pete points out several positive things the ARRL has done in recent years. These were largely the result of ARRL employees with open minds and/or who ran AM themselves (although maybe not die-hard AMers). In other words, insiders helped us out. Regardless of what the ARRL did or didn't do in the past, in general, they have an open mind towards AM and AM gets pretty good coverage in QST and the Handbooks. We would be wise to engage with and support some of these insiders to continue to improve the standing of AM within the ARRL (assuming you give a damn about the ARRL).

The audio quality of SSB I hear on the air has improved dramatically in the past 10 years. More tranceivers allow for audio tailoring and many SSBers are taking the time to tweak their audio. And here I'm talking about the "average" ham on SSB, not the ESSBers. Products like the W2IHY boxes exist because more SSBers have come to realize what AMers always  knew - it's more pleasant to talk to someone on the air when they sound like a human.  ;D  Even more than a few DX stations I work have above average to in some cases excellent sounding (for SSB) audio. So the trend is heading away from the communications at all cost sound to something more reasonable. Technology and less crowded bands make this trend possible.

Yes, an excellent trend!

The ideas that AM and wider bandwidth audio have value are gaining ground, and more than one insider must be helping with that. That should be encouraged.

The narrow-as-possible=virtue idea still has a lot of adherents, unfortunately, even though in the face of spread-spectrum, time domain multiplexing, FM (a form of multiple sideband, actually), and wideband multiple-carrier phase modulation schemes, it is becoming increasingly preposterous.

In numerous scientific tests, it has been shown again and again that, in the face of noise, voice transmission over fairly wide bandwidths (similar to those often used by AMers and high-quality SSB users) beats sub-3kc-audio every time.

Unless there is unnecessary distortion, more audio bandwidth equals more information being transmitted: More of the subtleties of expression, more of the real personality, more of the real presence of the other individual. That is better communication, even leaving intelligibility aside. And there is a quality of art and magic that appears when the transmission of sound approaches a certain quality. That may not be susceptible to exact definition, but, to those with non-tin ears, it definitely exists. No one should be able to take that away from us under any pretext, in my opinion.

Furthermore, even if you postulate (and I don't) that at very bad s/n ratios narrowband space shuttle audio has an advantage, you're still hurting most of your listeners (who have reasonably good s/n ratios) by transmitting that kind of signal, just to benefit the tiny number who can barely hear you.

All the best,


Kevin, WB4AIO.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Excellent recording, Kevin. You must have a sweet spot there for hearing folks regardless of their location. Charlie pounds in here like a local, too.

Was cool hearing Buzz acquired a KW-1, more surprising to discover it was Stu's. When speaking with Buzz a few months back on his 32V, he mentioned knowing a fellow who used to have one and would only put it on for New Year's eve each year. I figured he went back and found it!

I don't have a "smoking gun" quote, document, or link on the ARRL/QST forced promotion of narrow, pinched audio via an advertising ban (if anyone does, please pass it along!), but I've seen it discussed here and over the air more than once. I believe Carl, KM1H, is the guy I first heard it from.

Same here. He mentioned it in a thread over in the Tech section so I asked him to provide some documentation to back it up. First I heard of the ARRL being so powerful, and seems to go against numerous transmitters of the day. Not that it isn't true, I'd just like to see and know more if so. My guess would be that manufactures made a business choice to restrict audio in favor of having a transmitter than could be heard through the noise. Communication, not fidelity, was the issue then. No doubt why you still hear some OTs carping about AM using too much space. Much more an issue back then than now.

One case in point, the Collins KW-1 which was built in the early 50s, years before SSB was an issue on the bands. Skip/'YOO can probably shed more light on this than me, but somewhere around midway through the 150 production examples changes were put in place(bypass cap values etc) to restrict the audio. Early models sounded much fuller than the later production versions. But my understanding is that this had zero to do with any SSB issues or any ARRL mandate, and everything to do with Art Collins wanting a transmitter with more punch to get through the pileups and heterodynes. The 1952 timeline would support that. And as Charlie pointed out in the same thread, an out-of-the-box Ranger sounded pretty good!

The ARRL has plenty to dislike about it, but also does a lot of good as mentioned. Though not through vintage radio gear, they are doing more than any other group I know of to introduce a new generation of kids to amateur radio. Most will probably have little or no interest in AM, audio, or old tube radios, but that was the case when I got interested back in the 70s too. It's really up to us to make a difference, if it's truly important. Don't rely on the League or anyone else to do it.

Keep those recordings coming. 

[WB4AIO]

Excellent recording, Kevin. You must have a sweet spot there for hearing folks regardless of their location. Charlie pounds in here like a local, too.

[...]

It's really up to us to make a difference, if it's truly important. Don't rely on the League or anyone else to do it.

Keep those recordings coming. 

Thanks, Todd! I appreciate the background info.

I am slowly accumulating bargain-basement gear to match my bargain-basement life, so I hope that one day the recordings can be supplemented by actual transmissions. AIO Labs has probably learned a few things since I was last on. Or not.

I agree that it's up to us. Rob, W1AEX, is doing a great job on YouTube with his hi-fi Flex recordings, communicating that magical "something" about generating good-quality modulated RF and sending it via the Kennelly-Heaviside Layer to who knows where...


73,


Kevin.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Indeed - Rob's work in the world of Flex has many benefits. Enticing to those just getting interested, by nature of both the wonderful audio and use of new technologies; and extremely helpful to those of us who lack such amenities to witness how others hear/see us. It was certainly an eye-opener for me.

Good schtuff.

[WB4AIO]

I just returned to this topic and noticed that the old link to my recording was no longer good.

Not to fear -- archive.org 's Wayback Machine saved it so you can still hear this 13-year-old QSO. I guess it will live forever now!

Here's the link:

https://web.archive.org/web/20161207110707/http://liberty.3950.net/K3YA_W3EMD_KC2IFR_W2BVM_20120622_1030pm_3875kHz.mp3

Speaking of broken links, a lot of things seem to be broken on this site now, like the front page not being on the url you'd expect and all the icons for the compose functions are showing errors instead of actual icons. Maybe the admins should consider migrating to phpBB or Wordpress's forum software which I think might be called BuddyPress.

With all good wishes,

Kevin.

[Sam KS2AM]

Speaking of broken links, a lot of things seem to be broken on this site now, ..... all the icons for the compose functions are showing errors instead of actual icons.

The icon issue can be addressed by using "http" instead of "https" in the url if I'm understanding what you're reporting.

Maybe the admins should consider migrating to phpBB or Wordpress's forum software which I think might be called BuddyPress.

Do you have any recordings you could post of "Nearer, My God, to Thee" ?