AL-82 amp off line. Transformer bad. Test setup

[w1vtp]

Man!  Am I bummed out. 

I was rag chewing this week and ZORCH! The AL-82 blew the fuses, took out a breaker - excitement central.  Called Ameritron up and Rob told me to remove the 3-500zs and try it -  The test went as follows: 1) took case off, removed 3-500zs out, replaced cover, ZORCH 15 amp fuse blown.  Called Rob up and he told me to remove the power xfmr out and send in the amplifier in.  2) Second test: Well, I wasn't satisfied because the transformer hadn't been removed during the test.  Sooo, I put the transformer on a phenolic board, dangled the HV wires into the 3-500z chimneys on the board.  I then wired the primarys up for 120 VAC but inserted a 60 watt 120 bulb on one side of the line.  I then carefully turned up the Variac and observed the bulb start out dim and as I was advancing the Variac up the bulb would flash bright and I could hear a faint zorch.  I didn't get it much further than 70 VAC and gave up 'cause I was convinced it was zorching internally.

Monday I will call Rob up and try to get him to agree for me to ship the transformer instead of the amp.  Here's a photo of the hookup.  The amp's under warranty so I should be OK.  So for now, good old reliable EFJ Courier

Al

[KA2DZT]

Al,

Sorry to hear about the xfmr.  It's a nice looking iron.  Are you sure it's bad??  If the xfmr was shorted the light bulb should light up bright.  OTOH if it's shorted to the frame then the bulb wouldn't light brightly.

Well in any event, I guess I'll be back to barely being able to hear you.  Hopefully you'll get the amp back up and running.

Fred

[N8ETQ]

Hey Al,

    Its prolly bad, if it's arcing internally and the fuses caught it it may take
several more attempts to make it arc right away as you add layers of carbon.
I've seen them sit there for 2 or 3 mins at full voltage before they "Zap", next
test only 30 seconds.  Save the fuses and get the replacement, if for no other
reason than to keep you from wincing when you hit the big sw.  If they can
get it working they will bill you for shipping. No sweat.  Nice looking Iron indeed.
Just my 2 cent's.

GL es 73

/Dan

[KM1H]

Al, thats a Dahl design and likely made by Magcap just south of Boston if that would speed things up. Then they can rewind it and ship to MS with the next batch

Id also check the PS filters in case they are the real culprit.

Carl

[w1vtp]

Carl, Dan

It's a warranty replacement so I just have to wait it out through the holidays (bummer). 

Fred, the whole idea of the setup is so I could catch this kind of problem without a major problem.  I'm confident that it's the transformer.  The light would flash bright to dull and I could hear the zorch coming from inside the transformer

Thanks for the good wishes guys.  We'll see how Ameritron is responsive to this customer's needs.  As they say, "stay tuned  . . . "

Al

[Opcom]

Maybe you can jack in another transformer temporarily? Maybe not if its warranty.. Sorry to hear of something that new frying out!

[w1vtp]

<snip>

Id also check the PS filters in case they are the real culprit.

Carl

First thing I checked was the top of the plate choke to ground.  It showed a charge up to the bleeder resistors.  I did not hipot things tho'. Don't have the capability yet.

Thanks, Al

[KF7JAF]

Al,

How much AM power out can you get from the Johnson Courier? I'm curious because I used to have one, years ago.

Dave

[w1vtp]

Al,

How much AM power out can you get from the Johnson Courier? I'm curious because I used to have one, years ago.

Dave

Realistically?  About 50 watts.  Not all that impressive is it, but I gives me roughly 1/2 a S unit.  I lost approximately 7 dB when I switched from the AL82 to the Courier.  What it does do for me is save on the Flex 5000.  My resting carrier from the 5000 when using the Courier is about 2 watts to get the 50 watts.

On another note:  just got a response to my email about just sending in the transformer and they still want the amplifier.  Sooo, I'll beef up the packing pieces (the support pieces got buggered up during the rough treatment by UPS) and get some of that large bubble stuff (what Rob @ Ameritron wants) and put it between the front panel and the box and the same for the back and send it in fully insured.  Please don't advise me against using the large bubble pack.  It's what Ameritron wants -- gotta be fully cooperative.  Maybe I'll take a pic of the amp once it's packed just for grins & a CMA.

Al

[W1AEX]

That's definitely a bummer Al. A very uncharacteristic failure too. Hopefully, Ameritron will simply allow you to swap out the transformer, especially since you have pretty clearly been able to demonstrate that it's the culprit. The fast-blow fuses in the primary do a very good job of protecting that transformer from other failures in the amplifier itself so I'm not sure why they would object to doing a quick swap.

Hope you get a quick and satisfactory resolution.

Rob W1AEX

[W3GMS]

Al,

My experience has been excellent in dealing with Ameritron's customer support.

I purchased an AL-82 from them about 12 years or so ago.  When the amp was just out of warranty, they replaced both 3-500Z which developed a grid to filament short.  The amp has been flawless ever since.  It has the Peter Dahl iron in it and do to its age I am assuming it came right from the Peter Dahl company. 

Joe, W3GMS

[w1vtp]

That's definitely a bummer Al. A very uncharacteristic failure too. Hopefully, Ameritron will simply allow you to swap out the transformer, especially since you have pretty clearly been able to demonstrate that it's the culprit. The fast-blow fuses in the primary do a very good job of protecting that transformer from other failures in the amplifier itself so I'm not sure why they would object to doing a quick swap.

Hope you get a quick and satisfactory resolution.

Rob W1AEX

A quick swap is not going to happen.  I think they are dumming me down as they do not know my experience level.  First thing that will happen is I will ship the amplifier back - just in case my ohm meter check didn't find a condition that occurs only with full voltage applied to it.  I cannot argue with that logic. 

I still have to deal with the inadequate packing for both the amplifier AND the transformer.  The amplifier packing can be repaired.  However, I think I will go with double thickness boxing for the transformer.  Anyone know a source of rugged boxing?  Single thickness is NOT adequate for a 32 lb transformer.  Any suggestions on who would be the best carrier?

Suggestions appreciate.  Finally, should I be starting a thread in the QSO section?  I think this would be of service to the general AMers to know how my experience goes with Ameritron.

Al

PS: Thanks for the reassurance, Joe

[KA2QFX]

So they ARE telling you to send back the transformer, but still want the amp too?  I guess they want to be sure they got it all covered if there is another fault.  Initially I thought they were asking for the amp and telling you to hold on to the xfmr.  Could you clarify this? 

And who pays all this shipping under a warranty repair? Each sender? Just you? 

[Mike/W8BAC]

Hi Al,

I have a suggestion for boxing. You'll need a razor knife and a hot glue gun. I find a suitable outer box which is a bit larger than needed. Than I find a second box to use as a donor. I measure and cut panels from the donor and hot glue them into the first box as reinforcement. The bottom and all four sides get a full flat panel and I cut one last panel for the inside top that doesn't get glued in place. I glue and tape the outer box flaps as well. Taking a trick from Peter Dahl and other transformer outlets, cut a 1/2" piece of wood to fit the bottom of the reinforced box and screw the transformer to that. I save, and keep on hand, a box or two that have that double thick cardboard whenever I find one.

As far as shipping I follow one rule. If it's delicate I ship it as fast as I can afford. Less handling and less time in the hands of the enemy. Good Luck!

Mike

[W7TFO]

Hi Al,

Here is a method I have used successfully many times to ship heavy transformers via the mail in a flat rate box.  Never had any damage.

The key is to use haavy density foam to keep the trans from moving.  No movement, no box rupture.

So far, my best is Dahl modulation transformers @ 58 pounds for $15 anywhere in the US.

73DG

[AB3FL]

UPS does beat everything to sh!t.  At least around here Fedex seems to be more careful.  I filed a complaint about UPS one time and the told me that a ground package must be able to survive an 8 foot drop.  Use that as a gauge...


Tom - AB3FL

[W7TFO]

UPS = United Parcel Smashers

USPS Flat Rate or FedEx for me, thanks.

All shippers use the "8 foot drop" criteria.  We have to get over it.

Pack accordingly, buy LOTS of insurance.  $1,000 is an amount that gets attention and your box might travel "first class".

I have shipped lots of things to many members on this forum and so far nothing has arrived in worse-than-shipped shape.

73DG

[W2PFY]

That insulation that Denis has in his pictures can be had at Home Depot around here for $8.00 a panel. I shipped about 50 pounds of stuff to China using that.It was the customers request so I had to comply. I never heard anything from them so it must have worked ok?

It's a little messy but very lightweight and easy to work with.

My 3 cents worth.

[w1vtp]

So they ARE telling you to send back the transformer, but still want the amp too?  I guess they want to be sure they got it all covered if there is another fault.  Initially I thought they were asking for the amp and telling you to hold on to the xfmr.  Could you clarify this? 

And who pays all this shipping under a warranty repair? Each sender? Just you? 

Yes, Mark - you did read it right.  I thought it was a bit presumptious of them not half-splitting to remove the power transformer from the fault.  Then, I think they probably do this to avoid some hambone from killing himself due to JSing a test.  I am going to bite the bullet and do as they say.  Meanwhile I'll search around for a proper shipping mode (got some good advise here - thanks guys) for the transformer.  I think we all agree that UPS (United Parcel Smashers) is NOT the carrier to use - this is verified by the guy at Ameritron, BTW.  So, USPS and FedEx will be the carriers of choice.  And, yes, I will insure the crap out of both packages.

So, send the amp in  and then wait for them to ask for the transformer (SIGH).

Al

[WQ9E]

Given the condition of USPS packages I have received in the last 6 weeks I wouldn't use USPS as my first choice for valuable items.  Fortunately everything has been well packed and the contents are OK but the packaging was beat to hell includinig ripped open outer boxes in two cases.  A set of Helms manuals I ordered for my 2006 GMC are still stuck at a USPS recovery center 5 weeks after I ordered them, fortunately Helms sent a replacement set via UPS which arrived quickly in pristine condition.  I have noticed a definite increased in damaged boxes from USPS in the last year.

I believe UPS has certain sorting hubs that don't do so well but I have never had a problem with UPS and I see a lot of our UPS guy.

FedEx probably does the best job but UPS is a very close second.  Two years ago I would have put USPS at the top but not anymore.  

[AB3FL]

I think UPS drop tests EVERY shipment.  I have NEVER received a package from UPS that didn't look like someone played football with it. 


Tom - AB3FL

[WQ9E]

Tom,

You must be near one of the "bad" centers  

Today I received two radio boxes (heavy) from the W. coast and two fairly light Christmas packages from Amazon today via UPS and even the lightweight Amazon packing boxes are still pristine.   A box of knobs (via ebay) was at the post office and both the inner and outer box were severely smashed but the knobs (all 16 individually wrapped) and cushioned in bubble wrap were fine.  I wish every ebay seller would package items so well.

I have heard bad things about the Dallas sort center but there must be a similar destruction center near you.

[flintstone mop]

Hey Al,
Don't tell Ameritron that you were using the AM mode. The P.S. might not like that steady draw for 100% duty cycle.
Fred

[KM1H]

Here is a method I have used successfully many times to ship heavy transformers via the mail in a flat rate box.  Never had any damage.

The key is to use haavy density foam to keep the trans from moving.  No movement, no box rupture.

I can see the mess it leaves on the floor   That is the cheap flaky stuff you can find at the town dump and in dumpsters. Whenever some doofus ships me something with that crap I have to take it outside to do the removal.....the neighbor hood is white after Im thru
If its valuable and heavy I go to HD and buy 4x 8 panels of construction foam, it comes in 1, 1 1/2, and 2" thickness. They also sell it in smaller pieces and will cut what you need.

As far as shippers Ive had the best luck with UPS both ways. I also know how to pack for survival but some of the scary packing on inbounds and no damage amazes me. A bubble wrapped Ranger on peanuts from the midwest last week and not a mark on the box.

USPS seems to be getting better and FedWrex is continuing down hill.

This is all based on fairly high volume, not the casual shipper.

Carl

[K5UJ]

Al, I would not even fool with Ameritron unless the amp is under warranty.  I'd instead get a higher current CCS rated transformer or get the stock one with what sounds like a high resistance short in the secondary, rewound. 
If you get bigger iron you'd have to build out the p.s. in a separate enclosure but you could put it right next to the AL-82 cabinet, get a higher volume blower and wind up with a continuous duty AM amp.


this probably has nothing to do with the tran. failure but I think the cooling in the AL-82 is through the tube chimneys only, with nothing forcing air or pulling it through the power supply.  I think the AL-82 transformer is rated at somewhere around 600 ma CCS so it is probably okay for around 300 w. AM but I'm not sure about any 20 minute geezermissions.  I keep a lot of air moving through the p.s. on my amp but I like overkill.  Mine's a Centurion with 2.8 KV and a 500 ma Dahl CCS transformer.