The AM Forum
December 10, 2024, 03:55:21 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Links Staff List Gallery Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Link Antenna Coupler - Ladder Line Shunt Inductor  (Read 27446 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
aa5wg
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 450


« on: November 24, 2011, 06:23:46 PM »

Hello to all: (Updated)

Where the ladder line connects to the link antenna coupler I am connecting a variable shunt inductor between the line.  One end of this inductor connects to the left side of the line and the other end connects to the right side of the line.  This inductor will be used to cancel capacitive reactance on the line.  

Please see below two attachments of possible inductor setup.  

Questions:  

(I) Which coil configuration is preferred, figure A or figure B?  

(II) If figure "B" is used do you think there is going to be a coupling/interaction problem between the two coils?

(III)  By using the coil setup in figure "B" do you think the current/voltage balance of the total antenna system (coupler, line and balanced antenna) could be upset?

Chuck


* Photo_2011_11_24_22_59_31.jpg (175.33 KB, 1753x1275 - viewed 882 times.)

* Photo_2011_11_24_23_2_36.jpg (196.71 KB, 1753x1275 - viewed 850 times.)
Logged
Opcom
Patrick J. / KD5OEI
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8301



WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2011, 09:18:33 PM »

Figure A ought to be better because it may have less magnetic coupling between the coils and the line.

====

If the coils are would opposite direction and are near each other, the inductances may partly cancel. (push-push)
If the coils are would same direction and are near each other, the inductances may partly add (push-pull -might be advantageous).

====

In the Northern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a counter clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound counter clockwise.
In the Southern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound clockwise.
This assumes the coils are mounted vertically, with turns 'stacked'.

If you mount the coils horizontally, this can be ignored.
Logged

Radio Candelstein
aa5wg
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 450


« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 07:43:15 AM »

Opcom:
Thanks.
Chuck
Logged
M1ECY
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 11:01:27 AM »


In the Northern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a counter clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound counter clockwise.
In the Southern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound clockwise.


Eh?

It's not April 1st for a while.....

Please enlighten me!
Logged
W2VW
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3483


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 01:40:51 PM »

Any of those will work but floating ends invite unnecessary voltages.

In practice the necessary inductance may seem quite small depending on your situation.
Logged
W2PFY
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13291



« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2011, 02:53:12 PM »

Quote
This inductor will be used to cancel capacitive reactance on the line. 

When you tune out the above, how do you know it's tuned out? Is another meter used and would your recommend this for any OWL?   I've heard the term and I guess I should know this being a ham but a person can't know everything.

Logged

The secrecy of my job prevents me from knowing what I am doing.
W2VW
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3483


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2011, 05:13:09 PM »

It isn't necessary to tune all reactance out. Depends on the situation. When the load is outside the capability of the coupler a parallel inductor can be one way to facilitate power transfer.

If one wanted to verify they had tuned all reactance out at H.F. they could substitute an adjustable resistive load at the "coupler" output and check SWR'sss'sssssses. 
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2011, 07:36:14 PM »

Or dip the final with the load and parallel inductor disconnected.  When the load and parallel inductor are re-connected, the PA tuning resonant dip will not appreciably shift if no reactance is introduced. If the dip does shift, try adjusting the inductor so that resonance (plate current dip) returns to the original setting.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
Opcom
Patrick J. / KD5OEI
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8301



WWW
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 01:57:16 AM »


In the Northern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a counter clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound counter clockwise.
In the Southern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound clockwise.


Eh?

It's not April 1st for a while.....

Please enlighten me!

I apologize, that part was a joke based on the fallacy of the direction water swirls in the bowl or drain, said joke  may not have been as obvious as I thought. I should not have made it. The rest I meant seriously.
Logged

Radio Candelstein
M1ECY
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 03:00:32 AM »

No Worries - Hence April 1st reference - April Fools Day (not sure if the US shares this tradition though)
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 08:48:24 AM »

In the Northern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a counter clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound counter clockwise.
In the Southern hemisphere, electricity flows more easily in a clockwise direction due to the Coriolis effect, so the coils ought to be wound clockwise...

I apologize, that part was a joke based on the fallacy of the direction water swirls in the bowl or drain, said joke  may not have been as obvious as I thought. I should not have made it. The rest I meant seriously.

Makes about equal sense (or should I say nonsense) to speaker cable break-in, £27,000 power cords, $250 ea. wooden knobs, etc.  Hard to tell these days what is intended to be taken seriously; one may be surprised.


Any of those will work but floating ends invite unnecessary voltages.

In practice the necessary inductance may seem quite small depending on your situation.

I doubt it would make a lot of difference in the case of relatively low-Z feedline impedances. In the prototype tuners I have been working with lately, I could see zero difference in zorch tendency or rf efficiency whether the unused turns were shorted or left floating. With something like a high-Z tank coil, the Tesla coil effect of floating turns might contribute to losses or arc-over.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
aa5wg
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 450


« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 10:13:29 AM »

I am back from visiting my sister for Thanks Giving and got a chuckle from the North and South Hemisphere tip. 
Can anyone get a little specific regarding questions #1, #2 and #3?

Chuck
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 11:24:41 AM »

If everything is laid out reasonably symmetrically, I can't see how one layout would have a greater tendency than would the other to unbalance the line. If you are using two identical inductors, they should be wound in the same direction, so placing them close together end-to-end would increase the amount of inductance for the total number of turns, due to mutual coupling.  Laying them out parallel to each other might be easier, space-wise, and unless they are spaced far apart there still would be some mutual coupling - nothing I would worry too much about. Unless the required inductance and the inductances of the coils have already been closely calculated, I would try one inductor first, and if it is sufficient, there would be no reason to use two in series. Since this is to be a mid-impedance line, stray capacitance would have much less effect on balance than would be the case with something high-Z, like a push-pull final tank circuit or a parallel-tuned antenna coupler feeding a voltage loop of a tuned feeder.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
aa5wg
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 450


« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 09:48:25 PM »

Don:

Very good.  I'll see what I can do about the shunt coil(s). 

Thank you,
Chuck
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 12:27:24 PM »

We may have already discussed this, but have you ever thought of going the balanced L-network route for the highly reactive load?  You might be able to tune out the reactance AND match impedances all  in one throw.  I tried both the link coupled tuner and balanced L-network to work my homebrew link coupled transmitters to the 450-ohm resistive dummy load, and found the L-network to be almost 25% more efficient and broader tuning.

Using trial-and-error with components on hand, I successfully built an efficient link-coupled tuner that works with the unbalanced output of the Gates (looking for an alternative to the input balun).  It turned out to work efficiently only with a ridiculously high L-C ratio (only about 35 pf total capacitance across an 80+ turn coil for 160m) and the feeders tapped down on the coil, but the capacitance needs to be rated for well over 20 kv. A 100/100 pf split stator capacitor with 0.375" plate spacing and the two sections in series across the coil, arcs over on modulation peaks at full power.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
aa5wg
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 450


« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 09:12:19 PM »

Don:

When trying the balanced-L approach I tested many baluns.  I duplicated the baluns manufactures were using and what authers recommended.  Some of these baluns became so hot that you could not touch them.  These test were conducted at the 100 watt level, 160 - 10 meters.  At times current balance was poor.  

I read an article regarding the balun approach and the author concluded a balun placed in a highly reactive environment was not the best approach for feeding balanced line.  

I believe it may have been QST, they ran test on "Balanced" antenna couplers and experienced over heating problems with baluns.

I have found if one leaves all ceramic out of the antenna coupler (door knob capacitors and baluns) you then have eliminated a source of potential heating or failure.  I think TenTec ran in to this problem with one of their couplers that used a door knob capacitor.

The same goes for roller inductors, antenna switches and antenna relays.  Having just a tangent point (one degree contact point) between roller and wire or RF contact to RF contact promotes the environment for arcing in some antenna systems.  

Solid brass clamping taps, on link antenna couplers, provide over 300 degrees of RF contact from tap to coil(s).  

I know what you mean when it comes to tapping down to much to obtain the low impedance point on the tank coil.  I know you know this, but this is when I switch to series tune for a better LC ratio for low impedance matching.

Chuck





  
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 12:47:44 PM »

I believe you misunderstood what I meant regarding a "balanced L-network". I am NOT talking about force-feeding a balun between an unbalanced L-network and the OWL, the bogus configuration used by the majority of the appliance manufacturers in what they advertise as "balanced" OWL tuners. As you said, a balun placed in a highly reactive environment is not the best approach for feeding balanced line.

What I am  referring to is an authentic balanced L-network directly feeding the OWL. It is formed by splitting the inductance into two sections.  It may consist of two coils, one in each side of the line, or a single coil split at the mid-point with the low-Z input fed to the gap where the coil is split.  For even better balance, the variable capacitance would be formed using a split stator capacitor with the two stator sections in series, each connected across the coil(s) and in parallel with the OWL, leaving the rotor/frame floating.

The balun, if used, would go between the transmitter and the input to the L-network, where it would see a purely resistive, low impedance load when the L-network is properly adjusted.  In my case, since the link-coupled output in both my homebrew transmitters is already balanced, I don't need the balun.  The balun would be necessary for a transmitter with unbalanced output, such as a conventional pi-network or pi-L network.  One type of balun for this purpose would be what is  described as an "ugly balun", formed by neatly coiling up a length of coax in a single layer with uniform close spacing between turns much as you would wind a coil out of copper tubing.

You may recall this post I recently submitted on the subject in another thread:
A genuine balanced tuner is either link coupled or has the balun between the transmitter and tuner, and uses a symmetrical tuned circuit, either with two separate identical tuning capacitors or a single split-stator one.

Many of the commercially manufactured "balanced" tuners on the market to-day are totally bogus.  They use an unbalanced L- or T- network to feed the open wire line through a balun. That might work OK when the OWL is working as a flat, untuned feed line, but is a bad idea for working into a tuned feed line, if the load has any substantial reactive component, or is a high impedance (something that would normally require parallel tuning with a balanced link-coupled tuner).  One of those tuners MIGHT work OK if the OWL resonant feeder is being fed right at a current loop where the impedance is low with little or no reactive component. But it probably wouldn't be satisfactory on any other band with that antenna.

Transformer-type baluns like the ones used in those tuners are  designed to handle a purely resistive load at a narrow impedance range.  Force-feeding a reactive load of random impedance through a balun may result in excessive losses and cause the ferrous core to heat up (sometimes to the point of self-destruction), and even worse, may drive the core to saturation, causing it to become non-linear, resulting in spurious radiation products, exactly like what happens when antenna-to-feedline connections become corroded or certain dissimilar metals come into contact.


An excellent article on the subject appeared in the February 1990 issue of QST.  Here is the pre copy-edited version, updated in May, 2003, in a web page put up by the author. Click on the embedded links for the referred circuit diagrams.

This might specifically apply to your case: (quoted from the article) The reactance formulas give exact values only for non-reactive, purely-resistive loads. If the reactances of the L-network are adjustable, a wide range of load reactances can be cancelled by adjusting the L-network to create an equal and opposite reactance. This is accomplished by tuning the L-network for zero reflected power while using a minimum power level.

http://www.somis.org/bbat.html
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
KB2WIG
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4468



« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 01:09:25 PM »

"  April Fools Day (not sure if the US shares this tradition though) "

Well, we have one over on the UK;  we've expanded the tradition, we're fools most of the time.


klc
Logged

What? Me worry?
Steve - K4HX
Guest
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 07:38:21 PM »

Nothing bogus about it. It's balanced under most conditions. You are confusing symmetrical with balanced.
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 08:31:30 PM »

Maybe balanced, but highly inefficient, and sometimes source of spurs.  Otherwise, why would the balun heat up?  A transformer type balun is designed to work into non-reactive load within a certain impedance range.  The balun should be on the input side of the tuner, not on the output side.

Contemporary antenna tuner circuits claim to be able to operate into an unbalanced load or a balanced load such as ladderline. In actual use, most of the contemporary "matches everything, balanced or unbalanced" antenna tuner circuits produce a semi-balanced output when used with a balanced load. Although the antenna will radiate in this situation, a semi-balanced output is like having a semi-balanced checking account. It is less than wonderful.

A look at the diagram for the contemporary "matches everything" antenna tuner circuits reveals that they are usually unbalanced, high-pass filter characteristic, T-Network circuits with an add-on balancing device hooked to the output of the unbalanced tuner circuit. This is a compromise design which, not surprisingly, also has compromise performance when used with a balanced load.

The imbalance in these "balanced" tuners can be easily confirmed with a RF voltmeter or RF amperemeter(s). When the actual current or voltage is measured at each output terminal, the observed imbalance gets progressively worse above about 7MHz. At 28MHz, it is not uncommon to have 50 (percent) more current or voltage in one of the legs than in the other leg.


http://www.somis.org/bbat.html


bogus

adjective
1. not genuine; counterfeit; spurious; sham.

Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
Steve - K4HX
Guest
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 09:08:27 PM »

Have you ever used such a set up? How much temperature rise did you see?

Having used such a set up for about five years, I never saw any heating or had any spurs. That's not to say such could not occur, but I've seen heating in link tuners too. Any properly designed/rated system will be OK. Any one that is not, will be more likely not to be OK.

KB3AHE has much more experience with such a set up. Once he rated things properly, the tuner has worked flawlessly for years. His signal speaks for itself.

Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 10:13:33 PM »

I never used one here, but my friend across town (Vic, K4SSD) had problems with his.  Don't recall what company made it, but it was a T-network and the balun would get hot to the touch if he tried to run AM. He showed me the burnt yellow tape used to insulate under the winding, that had turned brown.  Worked OK with slopbucket, but crapped out when he tried to run AM through his pair/3-500Z leen-yar.  He finally took the balun apart, acquired a second toroidal core, stacked it on top of the original one (or maybe he used two new ones), rewound the turns with new wire and tape, and after that it ran only warm, not hot. He still had TVI until everyone round him had finally changed over to satellite or cable.

He had rf in the shack until he followed my suggestion to disconnect the external ground from the tuner case and let it float.  That reduced the rf, but he still had the TVI and the balun still ran warm (but no longer burnt up) on AM. I suggested that he relocate the balun from the output side to the input side, and mount the whole case of the tuner on a well-insulated support well away from anything else in the shack.  Don't know if he ever tried that.

If you are working into OWL tuned feeders on the lower bands, and feeding it at or near a current loop, it probably will work flawlessly. It will probably work OK to a flat untuned balanced line, 300-600Ω.  But I dare say if you try running high power, using such a JS configuration to feed a voltage loop, or worse still, to what Chuck is trying to load, fed at an odd 1/8 wavelength (midway between a voltage and current  loop), it won't work quite so flawlessly.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
Opcom
Patrick J. / KD5OEI
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8301



WWW
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 12:11:43 AM »

I'm not saying that oversizing will fix anything technical (loss, efficiency, etc) but it may avoid a 'tuner meltdown' so you have time to get things right according to your needs.

Go bigger? - parts from a 5KW BC rig may make good tuner parts.

Logged

Radio Candelstein
W2VW
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3483


WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 03:58:09 PM »

Most high pass T network hamateur tooners use a 4:1 balun. Not a good way to transfer QRO am to a high current load.

Logged
aa5wg
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 450


« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 07:59:32 PM »

Don:
I did make the mistake in thinking you were trying the forced feed an unbalanced L-Network and expecting it to pass as a balanced L.  I should have known better. 

Chuck

Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
 AMfone © 2001-2015
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.127 seconds with 18 queries.