QRP in a Contest +Do Contesters tell a fib?-video

[Burt]

AMers are a fabulous bunch but I left the inefficent but relaxing mode to me, K1OIK, enter a contest!!!

In the WAE contest on September 11 I did a poll as to whether contesters could hear me among the ruckus (QRM or QRMary for those into lingo) and whether they would give honest signal reports.
I was running an FT-817 at 5 watts into a dummy load (Hy-Tower vertical)(exaggeration I know)
So watch and hear were are those into "RadioSport", honest?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93BRFwOowSo

[KX5JT]

I don't believe you Burt!  You got together with your radio friends to make this video didn't you! You and your cronies are conspiring against the good people involved in the upstanding and impeccable sportsmanship of RadioSportsMen!!  Shame on you!  I bet you had a lenyar amplifier hiding under that table too!!!

[Burt]

I don't believe you Burt!  You got together with your radio friends to make this video didn't you! You and your cronies are conspiring against the good people involved in the upstanding and impeccable sportsmanship of RadioSportsMen!!  Shame on you!  I bet you had a lenyar amplifier hiding under that table too!!!

What is amazing you saw all the contacts I made. I did not edit any out that would have not served to prove a point. My hope was to prove contesters are not honest but thought I would have to make quite a few contacts to get enough material
Burt

[KX5JT]

I don't believe you Burt!  You got together with your radio friends to make this video didn't you! You and your cronies are conspiring against the good people involved in the upstanding and impeccable sportsmanship of RadioSportsMen!!  Shame on you!  I bet you had a lenyar amplifier hiding under that table too!!!

What is amazing you saw all the contacts I made. I did not edit any out that would have not served to prove a point. My hope was to prove contesters are not honest but thought I would have to make quite a few contacts to get enough material
Burt

I LOVE to make a few contacts during contests and give them actual honest signal reports..... that's the best part of contests for me!

[k4kyv]

I actually had someone tell me once that it was poor contest etiquette to give out any signal report other than 5-9, no matter  how crappy the signal was.

I do that too sometimes, John.  Just for fun, make a few contacts and give out honest signal reports. Sometimes it seems to temporarily addle them for a few seconds and they don't know how to react until they regain their composure.  And I run AM to boot (even though it is listed as a SSB QuaRMtest). Most of the time they don't catch that.

Once upon a time, as I remember, people did tend to give out honest signal reports in QuaRMtests. That made them serve at least one useful purpose.  You could get on the air and make a lot of contacts with a lot of different places over a short period of time before propagation took a major shift, and get enough signal reports to get some idea where you had an effective signal and where it was marginal.  Maybe they weren't all honest even back then, but if you tended to get an unusual number of weak signal reports from South Carolina and Georgia, while getting mostly strong reports out of Chicago and Minneapolis, you could assume your antenna was effective to the northwest but something was lacking to the southeast.

[KB2WIG]

I once made the mistake of  "you ar S5 to S6"  and got back " make up your mind ...is it a 5 or 6!!!???

' Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it.                                                                                                                                       "


klc

[KX5JT]

I once made the mistake of  "you ar S5 to S6"  and got back " make up your mind ...is it a 5 or 6!!!???

' Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it.                                                                                                                                       "


klc

If someone told me that think I would have had to respond with "Could you repeat please?" over and over until he went away.

[WD8BIL]

Burt, in this case you were supurb in proving the obvious!!
Oh BTW, ur 59 in Ohio...... W2OAK de WD8BIL!!!

[K5WLF]

Well done, Burt. You proved what I've suspected for a very long time. Great video. You're definitely 59 in North Central Texas...

I'm with Don. I appreciate an honest signal report because it lets me know how my system is performing. The only New Zealand contact I've ever made was with Mat, ZL2MAT on 20 meter slopbucket. I was running 100 watts into a 5-BTV on my metal roof. Don't remember what he was running. We had to work for it, lots of "say again" and "repeat, please". Ended up with me giving him a 47 and me getting a 44. Honest reports and I liked it. It let me know that I'm going to have to make some station improvements if I want armchair copy into and out of NZ/Australia area.

Just can't understand the guys that want to be lied to all the time.

[W2VW]

One cannot even get a consensus of exactly what 5 and 9 is and when to give that report.

Some want to use the all mighty S meter and others consider SNR.

Still others have a sliding S unit scale. I've often wondered if said scale can hold an alignment while possibly sliding into things around the shack.

They should just change the exchange to "I can hear you".

Please copy I hear ya. Good luck in the contest.

Maybe catchier would even be better. How about one from an old well known SK?

Excelsior you fatheads. Good luck in the contest.

[K1JJ]

Back in the 90's ( yes, a long time ago, sonny) I found that giving out big reports to European DX stations in the 75M DX window made them feel good and the pileups got bigger. I'm talking about casual, DX ragchewing activity.  I made it a point to give out EXACT meter readings off my FT-1000D meter. This would create competition amongst the callers trying to out-do one another.  

The "secret" was I had recalibrated my S-meter so that it read about 15db higher than a "calibrated" meter. (The S-meter BS factor) The DX loved it!

One day, about 5 years ago, a German station told me my S-meter was VELY generous after I gave him an S9 +40 on 75M.  Most Germans are very exacting in their ways, so he couldn't hold back.  I decided right then to calibrate my S-meter to a true S9 with a 50 uv signal. It tracks true now, being off only 2db at S9 +60 over. (that's 50 mv, IIRC)

So now I give out reports the same exact way, but it is rare to see guys over S9 +20. I say every so often that it is a CALIBRATED, stingy, S-meter. Most DXers seem to appreciate that.

The thing is that MOST hams want to know how their signals are coming in. Giving out an exact signal report on our meter gives them a chance to compare it to reports we give to other stations, if they listen for a while to our activity.

The problem with the corntesting is that I believe the logging programs automatically input "59" without operator intervention. I also enjoy giving a corntest station a "57" once in a while. But it throws them off and I'll bet they just log it as a "59" anyway.

There is a log cross-check procedure in some corntests that looks at the two stations data to see if they match. I wonder if they even bother to compare all the "59's"..

T

[The Slab Bacon]

that was actually pretty good. It reminds me of when we used to do field day with a local club that I used to belong to. We were always pressured by the "club elders" to make the maximim number of contacts that we could.

We were also supposed to be running QRP @5 watts. What a pain in the a$$! ! ! !
the Field day coordinator would walk by all of the stations periodically to make sure we were only running 5 watts. He would look at the power meters and adjust our power down to 5w and walk away leaving us screaming our guts out into the mic.

As soon as he turned his back and took a couple of steps we would immediatly crank them back up to 100w.    

Getting "squashed like a bug" was absloutely no fun, especially in a corntest!!

Life is absolutely to short for QRP ! !  

[WA1GFZ]

even IRB ran 100 watts

[The Slab Bacon]

Oh, Yea, everyone was always 59! ! !  But......................

I would always compliment someone on a very good STRAPPING signal.

[k4kyv]

The thing is that MOST hams want to know how their signals are coming in. Giving out an exact signal report on your meter gives them a chance to compare it to other reports, if they listen for a while to your activity.

The problem with the corntesting is that I believe the logging programs automatically input "59" without operator intervention. I also enjoy giving a corntest station a "57" once in a while. But it throws them off and I'll bet they just log it as a "59" anyway.

Even if you give the exact reading in microvolts, the report is meaningful only if there is some kind of reference.  When listening to a European on 75 or 40, I often get as much as a 40 dB stronger s-meter reading with the transmitting dipole than with the beverage, but the signal/noise ratio is still much better with the beverage. There are many factors that could cause the same signal to display widely different meter readings at two nearby stations.

I usually just give signal reports by ear, essentially one of three levels: strapping, reasonably good, and marginal, and don't pay much attention to the meter.  Sometimes, a station will ask for an exact s-meter report, so I tell him what the meter reads while he is transmitting, but also include what the meter falls back to when he is not transmitting.  To me, a report of S9+10, and the meter drops back to S2, is a much better report than a report of S9+30 but the meter stays up past S9 when he quits transmitting, due  to the background noise.

IMO, five steps as in readability is all that is necessary, and anything more than five steps for signal strength is too many. 5-5 should be the equivalent to what we call 5-9. In fact, in French, there is a slang expression cinq sur cinq (five by five), that originated from military communication, which means "I understand perfectly" (I read you loud and clear). Now, can there really be even a vague agreement over what exactly would make the difference between an S6 signal and an S7? Interestingly, the early 1930s HRO receiver originally used an s-meter with S1-S5 scale, changing it to S1-S9 in later runs.

I once read an interesting story suggesting that in the mid 1930s, when the League was first promoting the new RST system to replace the old Q5/R9 method of giving reports, that the original proposal was to use nines for all three numbers, but that ARRL wanted to keep five for the first number to discontinue the possibility of "R-9" in a signal report , purportedly because it too closely resembled the name of a competing amateur radio magazine, R/9. They should have instead changed it to 5 levels for all three dimensions of the report.

There is a log cross-check procedure in some corntests that looks at the two stations data to see if they match. I wonder if they even bother to compare all the "59's"..

That's what the person told me who said a non-5/9 report is a QuaRMtest etiquette violation. He said that some contest cross-checks do compare the entire exchange, and penalise far any errors, including the signal report. Therefore just to be sure, the QuaRMtest operator must stop and manually enter the 4/7 or whatever it was, and that confounds them because of the extra time it takes.

[K5UJ]

by coincidence I talked a bit about s meters on BA receivers with Mike CVY and Steve TOW last night.  The R388 really has it right imho with a dB meter and none of that S number b.s.   S meter readings are a joke at my shack because since I started operating AM I have had to resort to various rx antennas and the phasing network with leveling pots to null out noise.  That completely alters the s meter reading.  I like to give a reading with the RF gain all the way up and the antenna right into the rx.  pretty much can't do that anymore. Another issue is that the 75A-3 meter is pretty accurate for a 60 year old rx on signals that are ~ 30 uV and lower but then it becomes wildly inaccurate with stronger signals going by modern agreed  upon S meter standards.  Signals that should be 5 or 10 dB over S9 are shown as 40 and 50 dB over nine.   With all that going on the S meter is meaningless. 

[K1JJ]

Even if you give the exact reading in microvolts, the report is meaningful only if there is some kind of reference.

That's the point. There IS a way to provide some kind of reference.  The reference is using an accurate (linear response)  S-meter to give reports to many different stations in a short period of time - to minimize changing condition effects. The stations  must then compare reports against each other within a brief session. Working DX, I have times when there are 3 or 4 DX stations in a group and they want comparison reports. If each socks a few Yallos, one after the other over and over, then the readings can be quite revealing. I am talking now of Europeans who are 4,000 miles away where propagation and distance anomalies even out.  

There have been nights when I've compared my transmit signal against other transmitting USA  stations and we were consistently within 5db of each other night after night into DX-land.  However, for close-in stations on 75M, comparisons become meaningless cuz heavy local fading and QTH distances become a large percentage of the equation.

Yet another service to provide is when hams are looking for the difference between antenna A and antenna B. I use a step antenuator to equalize the two signals and then read off the difference.  

We must look for the PEAKS in signal strength when taking readings to even out the fading. This is an art of sorts.

The bottom line is, yes, getting signal reports from two separate receiving stations will be meaningless because of vast differences in receiving equipment, location, antennas, etc.  If one station gives you an S9 and the other gives you an S9+20, it means little. But if ONE receiving station with a linearly calibrated S-meter gives out reports for your antenna A/B tests or looks for comparison differences between two stations at a great distance away (and the two TX stations are relatively close to each other) then "relative" reports can really show something of value.

The first steps are to accurately calibrate your S-meter for linear accuracy across its range and also use a step attenuator for comparison measurements.  Take peak readings on the meter and ignore the lower fades.

T

[WA1GFZ]

If you run a smug radio you have an accurate meter..R390A also very good

[W1RKW]

Obscene power.

even IRB ran 100 watts

[Pete, WA2CWA]

One cannot even get a consensus of exactly what 5 and 9 is and when to give that report.

Some want to use the all mighty S meter and others consider SNR.

Still others have a sliding S unit scale. I've often wondered if said scale can hold an alignment while possibly sliding into things around the shack.

They should just change the exchange to "I can hear you".

Please copy I hear ya. Good luck in the contest.

Maybe catchier would even be better. How about one from an old well known SK?

Excelsior you fatheads. Good luck in the contest.

Actually Dave's response is probably the most accurate in today's contest world. Back in the "good old days" of contesting, the RS and RST reports really meant "signal report". Over the last 20 to 30 years, the carry-over RS/RST report is merely meant as an acknowledgement of "OK", "finally got your call", "I finally heard you enough to identify you as a contact", etc. There have been discussions for years to drop the RS/RST report in HF contests, but many feel it's part of the tradition in contesting report exchanges, even though its real meaning disappeared years ago. The VHF/UHF contests dropped the RS/RST reports years ago, but even during the last VHF/UHF contest, more then 50% of the stations I worked gave the exchange 59 in grid square XXyy. Some traditions are hard to drop.

Burt's video highlights the lack of operator contesting savvy as is typically found in a non-contester or a novice-type contester. Or maybe, it's just to make another video about anything to get the YouTube $$. How about a video on hams ending their final transmission on phone with "73" or "73's"? That should spark interest. Most contesters have some of the best operating skills you can find in the amateur radio world.

[VA3AEX]

What?  The 59 report I got from a Moscow station while running 100w SSB into a trapped dipole folded into a Z shape in an attic wasn't accurate?!  No wonder I can't bust into the 3885 ghetto with my DX100 -- stealth and AM are mutually exclusive.

Alex

[Burt]

 
[/quote]

Burt's video highlights the lack of operator contesting savvy as is typically found in a non-contester or a novice-type contester. Or maybe, it's just to make another video about anything to get the YouTube $$. How about a video on hams ending their final transmission on phone with "73" or "73's"? That should spark interest. Most contesters have some of the best operating skills you can find in the amateur radio world.
[/quote]

I was wondering when someone would comment on my lack of contest savvy. That was my weak point. In 6 years I have gotten some money from You Tube, enough so that I make about 5 cents an hour for the time and effort put in. The pay both on You Tube and teaching is the appreciation of the viewers/students. I recently told a Principal I would pay the school to teach there the children are so delightful.
Burt

[K5WLF]

How about a video on hams ending their final transmission on phone with "73" or "73's"? That should spark interest.

That would be a fun video, Pete. "73's" always bugs me because "Best Regardses" just doesn't make any sense.

[k4kyv]

If you run a smug radio you have an accurate meter..R390A also very good

But the S-meter reading still depends on what kind of antenna you are using, orientation and height of the antenna, obstructions, ground conductivity at your QTH, propagation conditions at that moment, etc.  Even with a precision laboratory instrument for measuring field strength, the absolute reading is meaningless unless you have some kind of reference point to use as a standard for comparison.

[flintstone mop]

Burt
The video or Youtube had some echo in the audio...were they bad edit points or was the internet hiccuping in my computer last night........

I agree 59 is just a thing of the past.......it would be nice to talk to some of these folks, instead of only 2 minutes of making a contact miles away half way around the whirl.
Fred