Dodging A Bullet!

[w3jn]

Mr Mike, glad you beat the grim reaper! 

Not so sure the issue might be saturated fat, per se; rather, the processed foods laden with salt, MSG, and artifical hydrogenated fats that seem to be the worst.

Here in Greece pork, lamb, 20% fat yogurt, whole milk, and any variety of natural (as opposed to Kraft crap) cheese are staples.  But the bread is ALWAYS fresh (and doesn't last but a day before mold starts growing on it), the 'maters taste like 'maters instead of oranges, and olive oil is the ubiquitous cooking oil.   You can't even buy margarine - but they don't generally put butter on their bread either.  And every meal is enjoyed with wine or beer.  Heart attack rates here are very low, despite widespread smoking, incredible consumption of coffee laden with cream and sugar, and plenty of overweight people.

People do walk a lot more here.  Any evening the neighborhood is full of couples walking, kids playing and running in the park, etc.  And they generally buy only a day or two's food at a time instead of stocking up on frozen/manufactured stuff.  Finally each neighborhood has a weekly farmers market where you stock up on your fruits 'n' veggies.

I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV but the quality of food, in moderation, combined with light but regular exercise, seems to do the trick here.

 

[W1RC]

Mr Mike, glad you beat the grim reaper!  

Not so sure the issue might be saturated fat, per se; rather, the processed foods laden with salt, MSG, and artifical hydrogenated fats that seem to be the worst.

You are absolutely right, John.  The "Mediterranean Diet" is known to be healthy yet tasty to the palate.

Cynthia and I spent several hours in the supermarket yesterday looking for some healthy alternatives to the products we have been buying.  It was a disappointing experience.  Here in North America we are pretty much hostages to processed foods which are loaded with sodium, saturated fats, trans-fats, sugars, MSG, food coloring and other artificial additives.  Next time you are in a food store try to find foods with little or no sodium.  It's pervasive - and it doesn't need to be there at all.  It's job is to make low quality foods taste better.

We love pizza, especially made with linguica which is a very unique-tasting Portuguese sausage.   I figure that I am allowed so many "units" of the bad stuff each day in order to achieve a more healthy diet and I can treat it as money, saving and spending it as such.  I could reduce the amount of linguica by 75% retaining it for the taste, boiling it first to remove some of the fat.   Then make our own dough in the bread machine and  home-made tomato sauce with low-fat part-skim Mozzerella chiz.  But the amount of time and work required  to produce this pizza is incredible and I don't see us doing it very often.

John is right - the processed foods and fast food outlets, especially here in North America, we have become seduced by and dependent upon are the real culprit.

73,

MrMike, W1RC

[W1RKW]

Last thing I want to do is lecture but hope someone drove you to the hospital.  If not, you took a serious risk. 

My youngest brother was in the same situation a few years ago at age 42. Decided to drive himself to the ER which was 3 or so miles away from his residence and ambulance only a mile away. At the start of his drive he was able to move freely. Things got worse quickly as he approached the ER. He decide to drive through red lights as the pain and numbness were getting worse.  Upon arrival, he couldn't get out of the car so he laid on his horn until someone came out.  He was carried into the ER on a stretcher.  My brother should've called the EMTs.  They'd have means to control an arrest. He may not have made it or could've injured someone else on the way.

Aside from that I'm glad you're OK and wish you good health from this day forward.

[k4kyv]

Here in Greece pork, lamb, 20% fat yogurt, whole milk, and any variety of natural (as opposed to Kraft crap) cheese are staples.  But the bread is ALWAYS fresh (and doesn't last but a day before mold starts growing on it), the 'maters taste like 'maters instead of oranges, and olive oil is the ubiquitous cooking oil.   You can't even buy margarine - but they don't generally put butter on their bread either.  And every meal is enjoyed with wine or beer.  Heart attack rates here are very low, despite widespread smoking, incredible consumption of coffee laden with cream and sugar, and plenty of overweight people.

People do walk a lot more here.  Any evening the neighborhood is full of couples walking, kids playing and running in the park, etc.  And they generally buy only a day or two's food at a time instead of stocking up on frozen/manufactured stuff.  Finally each neighborhood has a weekly farmers market where you stock up on your fruits 'n' veggies.

The diet may be more healthy, but in order to survive in the city you have to watch out for the crazy drivers, if they are anything like they were once when I was in Athens in the mid 60s, and missed being run down by a truck by a fraction of an inch.  I was crossing a street, and thought I had plenty of time to make it, but he was coming much faster than I thought.  I know he saw me, but instead of slowing down, he just sat on his horn and kept on coming full speed ahead.

Back then, the Acropolis was freely open to the public. I spent a whole day crawling all over it (climb at your own risk!). The next time I was there, they had it almost entirely fenced off, and visitors could enter only a few selected spots. I was told that the tourists constantly climbing all over it were eroding away the stones, so they decided to limit access.

Have you cultivated a taste for Retsina?

[K1JJ]

Here in North America we are pretty much hostages to processed foods which are loaded with sodium, saturated fats, trans-fats, sugars, MSG, food coloring and other artificial additives.  Next time you are in a food store try to find foods with little or no sodium.  It's pervasive - and it doesn't need to be there at all.  It's job is to make low quality foods taste better.

Amen.

Glad you spotted your problem before it did any serious damage, Mike.  With these new changes, you may have extended your life many years.

About MSG and the other additives you mentioned above - I wud love to kick in the GD BA's  the execs who decide to put (poison) MSG and these other useless "taste good" ingredients into our foods. I avoid MSG like the plague. It is in MANY foods - just check the labels. When I eat it by error, I get a killer headache that can last 8-10 hours.  It's in Campbell's soups, Nacochips, CheeseNips, pork and beans, most bacons, TacoBell food, Macdonalds chicken and other products... on and on. Read the labels and see.  Chinese resturants....  I once axed the owner if he used MSG. He said EVERYONE does whether they admit it or not - else they could not compete with flavor. It a challenge to find food without it.

Many people have bad reactions to MSG. There was a time when I thought about a national class action suit against the major food companies who use MSG. They are criminals in my mind.  Why doesn't the FDA respond to this? How will this practice look 50 years from now, like smoking?

Then there's "meat extenders" used in most store meats as a preservative and "hydrolyzed"  soybean additives. Watch out for these too. Carragean? is used in many foods and produces gas. Watch for it in dog food. Poor Yaz had problems until I stopped buying food with that additive.

Over the years I've watched what I eat and rarely get a headache or reaction these days - until I get careless when eating out. You cannot tell what the chef has used, really.  

Heck, what's wrong with eating "blander" food with no added junk in it?  We get used to it quickly.  As Johnny said, the bread in Greece grows mold after a day. The USA quest to preserve longer and make food taste "good" is shortening the average American's life. Most don't realize this until they have problems...  sigh.

T

[Steve - K4HX]

Glad to hear you are doing well. The changes you are making will be for the better, even if you didn't have your recent scare. Stick with it.

Blood cholesterol levels are but one factor to consider for your arterial and heart health. Have blood tests done to look at others.

C-reactive protein (bad if it's high)
Insulin (bad if it's high)
Estrogen (bad if it's high)
Triglycerides (bad if it's high)
Fibrinogen (bad if it's high)
Homocysteine (bad if it's high)
Glucose (bad if it's high)
LDL (bad if it's high)
Oxidized LDL (bad if it's high)
Blood pressure (bad if it's high)

HDL (bad if it's low)
EPA/DHA (bad if it's low)
Nitric Oxide (bad if it's low)
Vitamin D (bad if it's low)
Free Testosterone (bad if it's low)
Vitamin K (bad if it's low)

[Bill, KD0HG]

Have you cultivated a taste for Retsina?

Yecchh.

But my dad liked it.

It's the Ouzo over there that makes them crazy Greeks.

Steve, my doc checks all of those items annually. His specialty is Endocrinology and you got to be one sharp cookie to interpret and treat any imbalances. He put me on a Statin to fix my LDL and he recommends everyone over 60 to get a "48-slice" virtual coronary examination.

Tom, a Mediterranean-Style diet doesn't have to be bland.  I'll bet JN comes back with a new set of food likes. I'll make you a killer Eggplant Moussaka some time, all I need is some fresh Moose.

[w3jn]

The diet may be more healthy, but in order to survive in the city you have to watch out for the crazy drivers, if they are anything like they were once when I was in Athens in the mid 60s, and missed being run down by a truck by a fraction of an inch.  I was crossing a street, and thought I had plenty of time to make it, but he was coming much faster than I thought.  I know he saw me, but instead of slowing down, he just sat on his horn and kept on coming full speed ahead.

Back then, the Acropolis was freely open to the public. I spent a whole day crawling all over it (climb at your own risk!). The next time I was there, they had it almost entirely fenced off, and visitors could enter only a few selected spots. I was told that the tourists constantly climbing all over it were eroding away the stones, so they decided to limit access.

Have you cultivated a taste for Retsina?

Here pedestrians do not legally have the right of way.  However, Athens traffic is extremely sane compared with any number of places I've been.  Manila and Taipei rank among the worst; Manila was literally like a video game.  Nairobi was bad because of the crummy French cars that always died in the middle of the road as well as the extraordinarily poor roads (it was often smoother to drive in the ditch than on the road).  And then there's the wildlife hazards - giraffes, zebras, etc.  You think deer are bad?  See what hitting a giraffe does to a big bus.

Moscow is bad because of the congestion and number of relatively new and inexperienced drivers... I honestly think Moscow is the most dangerous place I've been, driving wise.

No, I don't think I'll ever develop a taste for retsina.  Nor kamakia ice cream (tree sap flavored)...  everything else is FBOM!

[WD5JKO]

Science is bucking the Drug Companies. Guess who your Cardiologist listens to?

Stephanie Senneff
Senior Research Scientist at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology)
 
"low serum cholesterol is associated with increased frailty, accelerated mental decline, and early death. (Ref 1.)
Statins are not the answer for anyone seeking to avoid cardiovascular disease. The answer, instead, is to modify the diet to include foods that are rich in cholesterol and saturated fat, to avoid empty carbohydrates, especially high fructose corn syrup, to eat foods that are good sources of sulfur, and, most especially, to spend plenty of time outdoors in the sun."

http://www.spacedoc.com/why_statins_do_more_harm_than_good

So what if she is right?

Jim
WD5JKO

[Steve - K4HX]

The statement is incomplete or over-simplified. You want your LDL to be low and the HDL to be high (relatively speaking). The most prevalent risk factor is low HDL, along with small LDL particles, which commonly occur together. In fact, of every 100 people with coronary heart disease, 60-70 will have low HDL and small LDL particles, but fewer than 30 will have high LDL.

The problems with long-term use of statins have been known for a long time. Dr. Langsjoen produced a study in 1990 showing that statins inhibit the natural biosynthesis of coenzyme Q10 in the liver. Low CoQ 10 eventually weakens the heart. So, if you are going to take statins, you really should consider taking CoQ 10. If your doc doesn't know about any of this, it might be time to find another doc.

[K5UJ]

Another thing that's in everything that you have to watch is sugar.

[WD5JKO]

Another thing that's in everything that you have to watch is sugar.

Yes, absolutely! Also realize that most foods labeled "Fat Free", or "Low Fat" are full of sugar!!

Back to Cholesterol, Be careful when the docs say your LDL is too high. Why? Because it is almost always calculated based upon the other values. Here is the formula:

LDL = Total - HDL - Triglycerides/5


If you don't believe this, pull out your own lipid numbers from the labtest, and plug them in. So what is the big deal with this? Well LDL is expensive to measure, and is easy to calculate SO LONG as you have a Trigliceride value around 200. If you go on a low carb diet, the Triglericides drop in half usually within 3 months, and the CALCULATED LDL value shoots up. So the Dr. ignorant of this fact says you need to be on a statin, and that low carb does not work. The Docs stick stubbornly to the restricted calorie and low fat diet.


When I turned 50, my doc says you better see a cardiologist to get your ticker checked out. So I do the stress test, radioactive die, ultrasound in the legs, and the optional MRI to look for any built up plaque. I pass everything, doc says I'm in the top 10 percentile for a 50 year old male. No evidence whatsoever of any CVD, zero plaque, etc. Pretty good hugh? Then he says my cholesterol is high, and I need to take statin pills. Wait a minute, no evidence of CVD after 50 years, and now I need to take pills? So I did take the pills, and I was one of about 10-15% that get rhabdomyolysis (acute muscle pain, usually in hip/thigh). After 5 months I can hardly walk. Four years after getting off the drug, I still have muscle problems in my leg/hip. I proved repeatedly since that a low carb diet high in Omega 3, and ALA along with vitamins C, E, D, B-Complex, Mag/Cal, Coenzyme Q10 can give me doctor pleasing blood lipid levels (total 180, HDL 76, LDL 99 Trig 55). Doctor says I'm full of it, and I should be on a statin. I suspect my LDL is a lot lower than 99 due to the math error since my Trig value is only 55.

Jim
JKO

[K6JEK]

Genes trump life style.

I know a guy who having watched his dad die young led a very careful life,  exercised a great deal, was never overweight, never smoked, ate a very careful diet, had great blood numbers, normal blood pressure, regular check-ups, aspirin a day, preventative cholesterol meds, was in peak fitness having recently cycled the coast of Oregon with his ham buddy Jeff, K6JCA.

This guy had a heart attack just about a year ago when out doing what was for him an easy easy bicycle ride.

He'd just had a physical & EKG too.

He got the whole thing, ambulance ride, ER, and a stent to open the 100% blocked LAD (left anterior descending) and a drug regimen.

Moral:  If you're at risk, don't settle for an EKG, get a scan of some sort, at least an echo cardiogram.  If your insurance won't pay for it, save up and pay for it yourself.

Moral 2: If you're determined to have a heart attack, be an endurance athlete.  Your heart doesn't grow any arteries but if you exercise like a lunatic it grows capillaries like crazy so the other arteries plus these capillaries pitch in if something important like the LAD stops up.  This will greatly reduce damage to the heart.

I haven't decided how to celebrate one year since the event.

[KA3ZLR]

Yup ya just never know..

I eat 2 eggs once a week on a thing my wife calls a Shanty Special she takes a muffin
split in a half toasts them puts sum margarine on both then covers each with a slice of
cheese then lays four pieces of Bacon across the two applies two poached eggs and in
the oven for a quick Bake and Whalaa Breakfast once a week.

I don't run but I walk a 1/2 mile twice a day I eat Bananas Onions Garlic Tomatoes Little
Bread No milk I Like Unsweetened Tea I like Sardines once in awhile in mustard sauce
things like this....and a good vino for dinner on Friday nights.

No Complaints from here.


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

[Opcom]

Well MrMike, I am glad you got off with a warning. Long life to you!

[WA1GFZ]

Jim,
That was very interesting reading. I know a number of people harmed by statin drugs. My Dad took them for about three days and couldn't walk. He threw them in the trash. I guess I will continue to sit in the sun on the beach and enjoy the view.
Friggen pill pushers. I bet they don't do much business in John's present QTH.

[WD5JKO]

Jim,
That was very interesting reading. I know a number of people harmed by statin drugs. My Dad took them for about three days and couldn't walk. He threw them in the trash. I guess I will continue to sit in the sun on the beach and enjoy the view.
Friggen pill pushers. I bet they don't do much business in John's present QTH.

Frank,

   That lady at MIT Stephanie Seneff has a PHD in EE and a BS in Physics/Biology. Interesting combination. This lady writes about how cholesterol works, how CVD starts, and then how statins change things. She does put it in words that most of us can comprehend. This is on topic with this thread.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/why_statins_dont_really_work.html

Here website:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/

Jim
JKO

[K3ZS]

Statin drugs are not an all or nothing prescription.    They do work and some have been shown to lower risk of death.   I have had the muscle reactions when my doc increased me a couple of times to the highest dose.    It takes a while sometimes for this to show up.  After going off of them completely for a while I resumed at half the previous dose.    The cholesterol was still low, but maybe not quite as low as with the maximum, but no side effects after a couple of years of the lower dose.

[K6JEK]

Broccoli in the morning
Broccoli in the evening
Broccoli at super time

I've computed the intersection of the various heart healthy diets and that's all that's left, broccoli.  I'm going to sign off now to write my future best seller, "101 Ways to Serve  Broccoli"

[WD5JKO]

Broccoli in the morning
Broccoli in the evening
Broccoli at super time

I've computed the intersection of the various heart healthy diets and that's all that's left, broccoli.  I'm going to sign off now to write my future best seller, "101 Ways to Serve  Broccoli"

  Yes, but the broccoli is likely grown in fields depleted of sulfer (the whole reason for eating the stuff), and now the GMO broccoli is here. 

http://www.pdazzler.net/2010/03/23/biotech-broccoli/

Jim
JKO

[K6JEK]

Broccoli in the morning
Broccoli in the evening
Broccoli at super time

I've computed the intersection of the various heart healthy diets and that's all that's left, broccoli.  I'm going to sign off now to write my future best seller, "101 Ways to Serve  Broccoli"

  Yes, but the broccoli is likely grown in fields depleted of sulfer (the whole reason for eating the stuff), and now the GMO broccoli is here.  

http://www.pdazzler.net/2010/03/23/biotech-broccoli/

Jim
JKO

Well in that case, I'm switching food groups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH9HlmVfdyg&feature=related

[Bill, KD0HG]

Well, then, start your own gardens. Kale, broccoli and peppers do well here, with lots of irrigation water.

Statins: My doc originally put me on generic 40 mg Lovastatin, which nauseated me and made me feel like crap. So he switched me to a 10 mg dose of Crestor. No problems with the smaller dose of Crestor, and it has had a remarkable effect on my HDL-LDL ratio.

I will say this- A retired doctor, my uncle, in a large Eastern city 4 years ago told me that there hasn't ever been a single heart attack incident with anyone on Crestor plus an aspirin a day.

Nothing about being hit by a truck, though.



Steve, you seem up on this..I think the newer Statins have far fewer bad side effects than the first one like Lovastatin. 10 mg vs. 40 mg for the same beneficial effect on me. Unfortunately, a lot more $$.

[W3SLK]

KZ3S said:

I have had the muscle reactions when my doc increased me a couple of times to the highest dose.

That's what happened to me. I asked my doctor to take me off of the statins because I lost about 50 yards off of my tee shots on the golf course. I felt extremely stiff after sitting in a chair for just a short period of time. My issue is that my HDL is low. One unique thing: when I was on the Atkins diet, my cholesterol and triglycerides were at there best level.

[WD5JKO]

I asked my doctor to take me off of the statins because I lost about 50 yards off of my tee shots on the golf course. I felt extremely stiff after sitting in a chair for just a short period of time. My issue is that my HDL is low. One unique thing: when I was on the Atkins diet, my cholesterol and triglycerides were at there best level.

The link I provided earlier actually described in understandable terms why statin drugs damage muscle tissue. So does lowering the dose eliminate the problem, or just the symptoms?

Here is that link again:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/why_statins_dont_really_work.html

So while studying this stuff, I ran into another web site where doctors, and other scientists debate the issue. These are not quacks, just folks with good credentials looking for unbiased explanations. Here is this site:

http://www.thincs.org/index.htm

I really enjoyed all the articles submitted to, but rejected by popular medical journals. Very informative. Here is that link:

http://www.thincs.org/unpublic.htm

Do your homework fellas; nobody cares for us more than we do.

Jim
JKO

[Steve - K4HX]

There is a fairly recent study¹ at Johns Hopkins showing supplementation with creatine my reduce the muscle damaging effects of statins.


1 - Annals of Internal Medicine, 2010, November 16; 153(10):690-2