Power grid change may disrupt clocks

[KF1Z]

Well, just great.
Now I'll have to buy batteries for my clock...   


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5giHrMC9wYlOzOkUg9wNC2jVKugkw?docId=371623ab59694aef9f0a02fe83faca8a

[n1ps]

Geez Bruce I always thought that 60Hz was one of those standards that was never to be messed with. I wonder what is going to be allowed to drift to save $$$?  I know little about how they create 60 cycle as I think about it. I can see it with a hydro plant...is the rotation of a turbine proportional to 60 cycles?

TVs used to lock onto the 60Hz freq IIRC, but perhaps no more.

~ps

[W2PFY]

I can't understand why this frequency variation would not cause problems with the rest of the grid. It one system is running fast it would be out of synchronization with the rest of the system possibly  causing heating in the generator itself. In order to change the frequencies to any extent with standard mechanical systems, they would all have to run faster. With windmills and solar cells I guess they could set the frequency with the movement of a mouse on a computer?  I was told once that for these large generating systems to pick up any part of the load that they must run faster than 60 cps by some very small fraction. Is this the way it works or do they just adjust the amplitude of the field    

[kb3wbb]

If they're concerned with saving money, as they claim, maybe they should be more interested in bringing the voltage down to 110/115. Right now the incoming voltage at my house is 126!

Larry

[Ralph W3GL]

   Check out the clocks in the pix that runs with that article...
     

[The Slab Bacon]

If they're concerned with saving money, as they claim, maybe they should be more interested in bringing the voltage down to 110/115. Right now the incoming voltage at my house is 126!
Larry

You should consider yourself lucky!! Around here it usually runs somewhere around 120-125 in the colder months, and 110-115 in the hotter months. The lower line voltage causes anything that is an inductive load to draw more current. (AC motors, air conditioners, etc)
This is their way of getting over on us, kinda like the butcher with his thumb on the scale.

Nothing around here (modern appliances) perform as well during the summer months.

[W1AEX]

"Officials say they want to try this to make the power supply more reliable..."

Well now, that statement jumped right out at me. How does NOT paying attention to the line frequency make our grid more reliable??? Yah, that makes sense... I'll just start ignoring that warning light on the dashboard and that will make my car more reliable!

[K6JEK]

This is curious.  Utilities have special power generators just for frequency regulation. It's one of the uses of spinning storage like this one that just came on line in New York, the worlds largest flywheel energy storage. I wonder how they can get away without frequency regulation.

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/06/13/largest-flywheel-energy-storage-system-fess-almost-up-in-stephentown-new-york/

[KB3DKS]

What will be affected by a small line frequency change??
Your trusty Hammond B3 organ ! It uses a synchronous motor to drive the tone wheel assembly.
 I was doing the sound/concert production at a PA university some years ago and due to the lack of proper AC service in the building the school had to bring in a large generator.
 While not a problem to any of the sound or lighting gear, the varying load changes due to the dynamic lighting system loading caused enough, +/- a cycle or two variance, enough to knock the organ off key with the rest of the instruments. The performing band had a fit since the B3 was featured in all of their songs and drove the electricians in charge of the generator nuts with threats of canceling the show, etc if the problem was not fixed.
 It came down to just leaving the lighting unchanged and quite a bit of fine tuning the generators governor. You would think that the band could of at least had a modern  synthesizer keyboard instrument as a backup for such a problem.
  There are probably still quite a few old sound or pitch producing AC sync'd pieces of gear being used out there somewhere. Tape and record players. Anything that uses a synchronous motor.

Bill 

[W0BTU]

This is curious.  ...  I wonder how they can get away without frequency regulation.

You're darned right this is curious! This almost seems like another far-out April Fool article published too late.

[n2bc]

As I understand it, the interconnect between sections of the grid is via DC.  Big, BIG rectifiers / inverters make the actual AC frequency between the two sections a non-problem.

Anybody seen my Mickey Mouse wind-up clock?

73, Bill  N2BC

[David, K3TUE]

I am confused by this article.  The claim that all digital clock appliances will move off over time makes little sense to me.  In my experience, digital electronics in consumer electronics use rectify AC to DC and filter it as best is needed and divide a crystal generated clock signal to drive the TOD clock.  How wrong am I about this?

[flintstone mop]

"Officials say they want to try this to make the power supply more reliable..."

Well now, that statement jumped right out at me. How does NOT paying attention to the line frequency make our grid more reliable??? Yah, that makes sense... I'll just start ignoring that warning light on the dashboard and that will make my car more reliable!

It's the same old problem........when human interferes with a computer controlled machine, the human usually crashes the system. We all have atomic clocks now.......RIGHT?? The speed of the hard drive or CD player will not change the pitch of the music like the good ole turntable...............RIGHT?? who needs 60 hz +/- whatever???

[flintstone mop]

What will be affected by a small line frequency change??
Your trusty Hammond B3 organ ! It uses a synchronous motor to drive the tone wheel assembly.
 I was doing the sound/concert production at a PA university some years ago and due to the lack of proper AC service in the building the school had to bring in a large generator.
 While not a problem to any of the sound or lighting gear, the varying load changes due to the dynamic lighting system loading caused enough, +/- a cycle or two variance, enough to knock the organ off key with the rest of the instruments. The performing band had a fit since the B3 was featured in all of their songs and drove the electricians in charge of the generator nuts with threats of canceling the show, etc if the problem was not fixed.
 It came down to just leaving the lighting unchanged and quite a bit of fine tuning the generators governor. You would think that the band could of at least had a modern  synthesizer keyboard instrument as a backup for such a problem.
  There are probably still quite a few old sound or pitch producing AC sync'd pieces of gear being used out there somewhere. Tape and record players. Anything that uses a synchronous motor.

Bill 

The illustrious electricians shudda put the B3 on it's own circuit from the grid.
I do not blame the band for their disgust. Musicians are pretty picky people when it comes to a performance. Nothing surpasses the sound of a B3 and the Leslie speaker cabinet............I'm one of those oldies that love the original sound.

[W1RKW]

The illustrious electricians shudda put the B3 on it's own circuit from the grid.
I do not blame the band for their disgust. Musicians are pretty picky people when it comes to a performance. Nothing surpasses the sound of a B3 and the Leslie speaker cabinet............I'm one of those oldies that love the original sound.

Saw Deep Purple in Hartford 2 weeks ago. I was surprised to see them use a couple of Leslie's and Jon Lord still uses a Hammond too. Awesome sound.

[kb3wbb]

If they're concerned with saving money, as they claim, maybe they should be more interested in bringing the voltage down to 110/115. Right now the incoming voltage at my house is 126!
Larry

You should consider yourself lucky!! Around here it usually runs somewhere around 120-125 in the colder months, and 110-115 in the hotter months. The lower line voltage causes anything that is an inductive load to draw more current. (AC motors, air conditioners, etc)
This is their way of getting over on us, kinda like the butcher with his thumb on the scale.

Nothing around here (modern appliances) perform as well during the summer months.

I must have the wrong understanding of how it works. P = V*I, so a decrease in voltage is met by an increase in current which equals the same amount of power (watts) which is what the electric company meter determines and charges you for, not current. What you say about motors is somewhat true but the inverse is true for anything with a transformer; TV's, computers, DVR's, STB's, VCR's, radios, etc., far more devices than run on motors. They will run cooler, use less power, and their service life will be extended considerably.

Larry

[WD8BIL]

I must have the wrong understanding of how it works. P = V*I, so a decrease in voltage is met by an increase in current which equals the same amount of power.....

Yes Larry, you're right. But what the math doesn't account for is the added heat the added current causes. When motors run hot they become LESS efficient. Less efficiency means more money.

[WA3VJB]

Hammond tone-wheel generators have no built-in means to change pitch, so imagine our puzzlement when, as players, we heard a pitch change in the Boston song "Smokin'" illustrated about 3:20 into the recording below.  The riff sets up, and when the bridge is finished it pitches UPWARD like magic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83Be3wjAsi8

We always thought someone put a thumb on an open reel sub-master recording machine, slowing the tape speed down, so that when it was re-played in production the apparent speed increased.

In this arena hall live performance -- same song --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_YUB8XKwb4

Around 3:34 you can see the B-3 and the Leslie (upper horn speaker a-revolvin' !!)
Sounds and looks like they substitute a guitar for the pitch change when performed live.

There's also a big theatre organ and at least one unidentified "keyboard," seldom played.

OH, and Bill, given the insistence of the band to fix the damn generator, it would have been sacreligious to substitute "a modern synthesizer keyboard instrument" as you suggest here.  Good thing you didn't say anything at the time. They sound pissed enough as it was.

What will be affected by a small line frequency change??
Your trusty Hammond B3 organ ! It uses a synchronous motor to drive the tone wheel assembly.
 I was doing the sound/concert production at a PA university some years ago and due to the lack of proper AC service in the building the school had to bring in a large generator.
 While not a problem to any of the sound or lighting gear, the varying load changes due to the dynamic lighting system loading caused enough, +/- a cycle or two variance, enough to knock the organ off key with the rest of the instruments. The performing band had a fit since the B3 was featured in all of their songs and drove the electricians in charge of the generator nuts with threats of canceling the show, etc if the problem was not fixed.
 It came down to just leaving the lighting unchanged and quite a bit of fine tuning the generators governor. You would think that the band could of at least had a modern  synthesizer keyboard instrument as a backup for such a problem.
  There are probably still quite a few old sound or pitch producing AC sync'd pieces of gear being used out there somewhere. Tape and record players. Anything that uses a synchronous motor.

Bill  

NOTHING electronic has been able to replicate the acoustic, physical Doppler effect of sound produced by the twin-revolving speakers of the Leslie.  That's why you may still see what looks like a piece of furniture on the stage. The Leslie helps the sound of a synthesizer, some of which come pretty close to creating the characteristics of notes from the mechanical, spinning tone-wheel/inductors of the Hammond.

The illustrious electricians shudda put the B3 on it's own circuit from the grid.
I do not blame the band for their disgust. Musicians are pretty picky people when it comes to a performance. Nothing surpasses the sound of a B3 and the Leslie speaker cabinet............I'm one of those oldies that love the original sound.

Saw Deep Purple in Hartford 2 weeks ago. I was surprised to see them use a couple of Leslie's and Jon Lord still uses a Hammond too. Awesome sound.

[kb3wbb]

I must have the wrong understanding of how it works. P = V*I, so a decrease in voltage is met by an increase in current which equals the same amount of power.....

Yes Larry, you're right. But what the math doesn't account for is the added heat the added current causes. When motors run hot they become LESS efficient. Less efficiency means more money.

You're right, that's true, but the inverse is true when the voltage goes up for anything (most devices) with a transformer. In addition motors, by the motion of the rotor, have a built-in cooling capability, albeit small, while transformers have none other than what dissipates into the air. When you add it all up we would be better off at 110/115 than we are at 126 or higher.

Larry

[W5COA]

The Telechron clock on your Hammarlund won't like the frequency change, and I doubt that ferroresonant or constant voltage transformers will like the frequency excursions either.

I imagine that there may be serious problems in large factories that have all operations synchronized for speedy production. Any glitch in one of the processes may cause problems downstream.

My Hammond organ won't care, unless I am trying to play with someone else.

I remember when Intelsat decided to let their geosynchronous satellites wander. It caused serios repercussions for dishes that were not designed to track constant movement, and also required tracking systems to be installed on many dishes that had not required them before.

Personally, I don't think that this decision was very thoroughly thought out.

JW

[k4kyv]

I haven't used my a.c. operated wall clock for years.  Got tired of resetting the damned thing every 2-3 days because our flaky electric service constantly drops with brief outages and  sometimes the outages are not so brief. I have a battery operated "quartz" clock that stays within a couple of seconds for months at a time.  So does my $30 Timex watch.

60~ a.c. clocks are going the way of CRTs, vinyl records, international short-wave broadcasting, carburettors, cassette tapes, over-the-air network TV, pay phones, mechanical analogue dials, etc.

A few cps of line frequency shift shouldn't affect most equipment that doesn't use a synchronous motor. Many of the transformer powered radios from the 30s were labelled "50-60" cps.  Some districts used to run 25~ power.  It hasn't been that many years since some districts in NYC still ran DC. Remember  the "a.c.-d.c." radios?

The problem with 125 v.a.c. is that so many appliances and equipment are designed for 115v, and the higher voltage shortens life. I run most of my stuff off an isolation transformer, and use the 115 v tap.  Problem is, sometimes the voltage dips to 110 or below during periods of high demand,  like hot summer wx or extreme cold.

[Mike/W8BAC]

The AC power coming from any commercial electrical power source is in 3 phases.
Each phase is 120 degrees out from each other. They are called "A" "B"
and "C" Phases.

In order to parallel the 3 phases to the grid, each A-B-C phase for your power
source (whether it's 100 watts or 5,000 megawatts, it makes no
difference) has to be in synchronization with A-B-C phases of the
grid. Every plant on the grid has to work in harmony, from Hudson bay to northern Baja
California. If a plant is returning to service after an outage VERY special care is taken to synchronize.  If bonding to the grid is tried while out of phase (even a fraction of a degree) your day will end badly.

In large units, this is done manually (or automatically) by using
what's called a synch scope with a rotating arm representing the
phase angle of the 3 phases as one, in relationship to the phase
angles of the grid. When they are at "unity", that is the arrow on
the meter facing straight up, the  paralleling breaker is closed. When
this happens the system grabs ( quite literally) the new  generator and the
3 phase angles move in harmony/synchronization. The speed of the
turbine/generator, whether 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM is then force driven
by thegrid and not your primary energy source (steam). No matter
how much additional steam (or water as in hydro) you add, the speed will
always stay the same. Additional steam, or hydro power will not add speed, it will add torque. By increasing the DC field this will increases megawatts.

In the article posted at the beginning of this thread it says “Tweaking the power grid's frequency is expensive and takes a lot of effort”. That is an understatement at best with dangerous consequences. If the North East for instance was experiencing a heat wave and utilities in that region allowed the power plants to run slower slightly to maybe conserve fuel. Every turbine in every plant nation wide would slow the same amount. Remember they are bonded and force driven by frequency. If a plant was trying to bond during fluxuations in grid frequency it could cause system trips and possible major equipment damage not to mention possible grid failure. I seem to remember a Canadian utility causing a cascading chain of events responsible for the largest grid failure in history. If I remember correctly they lost a phase while bonding and the dominos started to fall.  So, it seems unlikely allowing the grid’s frequency to drift for any reason makes no sense. From the utilities point of view the savings would be very small.

The article also says “Some parts of the grid, like in the East, tend to run faster than others.” And “East Coast clocks may run as much as 20 minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only likely to be off by 8 minutes. In Texas, it's only an expected speedup of 2 minutes.”  I’m no expert but this sounds like complete hog wash. This could only happen if  plants powering the grid from East to West are not synchronized . That just seems too far fetched.

[K6JEK]

...

I run most of my stuff off an isolation transformer, and use the 115 v tap.  Problem is, sometimes the voltage dips to 110 or below during periods of high demand,  like hot summer wx or extreme cold

I run most of my stuff on an Elgar 6000B AC Line conditioner at 115 VAC because the line voltage variations were moving the oscillators around and making me crazy.  It's a mighty fine beast but may not have enough oomph for a B3.  

For your listening pleasure and amazement, Barbara Dennerlein on the Hammond B3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ut7yIuCEY

[W0BTU]

I haven't used my a.c. operated wall clock for years.  ... 60~ a.c. clocks are going the way of CRTs, vinyl records,

Hello Don,

I agree about the AC wall clocks. As I type this, straight ahead on the wall is an atomic clock.

But we have a number of appliances here (such as digital clocks) that use the precise 60 Hz line freq. to keep time. I don't think we're alone.

We just built some custom devices for a university, for a government-commissioned study. Those devices had common, off-the-shelf elapsed-time counters that depend on the accuracy of the 60 Hz line frequency.

Another poster suggested that equipment with internal quartz crystals is sufficient. But in my experience, the accuracy of those quartz crystals apparently varies with the competence of the manufacturer. Some are very accurate, and some might as well have balance wheels or pendulums. :-)

[KA0HCP]

I've got a new favorite musician: Barbara!!!  Yippee.   Thanks you made my day.