FUEL $$$ WTF

[Steve - K4HX]

Just a few problems.

• Solar: Still too inefficient. And there's the environmental impacts and the transmission problems.
• Hydro: No new dams are being built and none are likely to be. We aren't even keeping up on the maintenance of most dams. Many go away each year (most are generators anyway). On the plus side, some smaller existing dams are being outfitted for generation.
• Wind: same problems as solar. And then there's the NIMBY problem
• Nuclear: GFL after Japan.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Just a few problems.

• Solar: Still too inefficient. And there's the environmental impacts and the transmission problems.
• Hydro: No new dams are being built and none are likely to be. We aren't even keeping up on the maintenance of most dams. Many go away each year (most are generators anyway). On the plus side, some smaller existing dams are being outfitted for generation.
• Wind: same problems as solar. And then there's the NIMBY problem
• Nuclear: GFL after Japan.

You got it man.   Good luck building a new dam. either the property cost would be out of site or some species of speckled bifurcated butterfly would live there, and of course every new project has the NIMBY folks to deal with. Hell we can't even build power lines in NH because it will 'ruin the scenic view".   Well I hope those folks can enjoy that view when they have to pay triple the electric costs.

Wood for heating fuel is getting legislated out in some states too.

Nuclear has only one real chance, and that fusion, but that is decades away from being reality. No one is investing in anything Nuclear now anyway, so with out the cash it's done, regardless of how good it is.  Even if you had a working Fusion plant, the tree huggers/NIMBY groups would make construction so crazy expensive that it wouldn't get built.

Meanwhile we sit on 200 years worth of the best anthracite coal buried in the Appalachians Enough to power our cities and provide secondary fuels for cargo transport. unable to use it cause coal is evil incarnate.

We will to freeze to death in the dark, unable to afford the gasoline to flee somewhere warm, while our Fearless Leaders zip around in private jets burning thousands of pounds of Taxpayer funded Jet fuel per hour...

[Steve - K4HX]

At least one train a day (maybe 2-3 miles  long) with nothing but full coal cars goes through this area each day. It guess it's coming western Virginia and West Virginia and winds up at the port in Newport News.

[N0WVA]

Is cold fusion research worthy of funding?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2009DIA-08-0911-003.pdf

[K1DEU]

As several have mentioned Methane which is found naturally way above crude oil deposits is #1. Its rarely deep.

We need crude for tires and many things but not for torque or AC power.

Not at sea or near the sea and not near known seismic activity.

BTW the Horizon attempt was not for crude but for methane. Using a emergency back-up cap that was well known NOT to fit the pipe, our Government confirmed this.

Many drill a small well using Water Drillers modified equipment. For just one person or a small community and distribute it safely using flexible acrylic pipe. I will be tapping methane here late this fall or next year dowsed 80 feet down.  I would expect most people know we can purchase refrigerators, freezers anywhere that run on Methane / Natural Gas.

Dr. John K1DEU   Water fusion will be allowed to work early 2013.

[Opcom]

At least one train a day (maybe 2-3 miles  long) with nothing but full coal cars goes through this area each day. It guess it's coming western Virginia and West Virginia and winds up at the port in Newport News.

A coal train about 1/2 mile long passes here each day. 1 train=1 day supply of coal for the southern power plant. It's kind of scary to know that if the train were interrupted, there is only so much reserve fuel onsite.

[k4kyv]

Hydro: No new dams are being built and none are likely to be. We aren't even keeping up on the maintenance of most dams. Many go away each year (most are generators anyway). On the plus side, some smaller existing dams are being outfitted for generation.

Not only are we not building more dams, the ones we have are falling apart, just like the highways, bridges, sewer lines, water lines and the rest of the infrastructure.  Most of this was built in the period between the late 1800s and the mid 1970s, designed for a life expectancy of about 50-60 years. Some of it is now over a century old.  Since governments at all level are teetering on bankruptcy, no funding is being outlayed for repairs. In the decades to come we'll be seeing more bridges collapse, open sewage running into the rivers and in the streets, water mains rupture, dams collapse and who knows what other catastrophes.  There is already a dam up in Ky in danger of collapse; the Corps of Engineers is supposedly working on it, but we are not out of the woods on that one yet.  If it does collapse, water will gush down the Cumberland River and the flood that hits Nashville will make May 2010 look like a heavy dew.

The recent "stimulus package" was supposed to include repair and rebuilding of infrastructure, but only a token amount was actually set aside to do that. Infrastructure collapse may be a greater threat to the nation than energy and pollution problems combined. Things are falling apart and we don't have the money to fix them. Kind of like a lot of our historic homes and buildings that are being allowed to crumble and fall down.

Nuclear has only one real chance, and that fusion, but that is decades away from being reality. No one is investing in anything Nuclear now anyway, so with out the cash it's done, regardless of how good it is.

I wonder if that would still be true if an all-out effort were put into the R&D, as they did in the Manhattan Project during WW2? The research to make it practical could be done at existing facilities, and a working prototype could built on an existing site or somewhere in the middle of the desert.  Once it could be made to actually work, then the fight would be on to build plants. Scientists have predicted that a working fusion plant would be much safer than the present-day fission plants (no hazardous waste piling up, no reactor core to melt down and little or no likelihood that it an uncontrolled reaction could accidentally occur to turn the plant into an H-bomb).

This would be a far better place to toss money than spending it to police the world.

As for cold fusion, I'm afraid that may be in the same realm as the fake Apollo landings, wooden audio control knobs, oxygen-free copper and breaking-in $600 power cords.

[K1JJ]

I've often wondered what it would be like if a human engineer from 1000 years in the future were to appear on the scene today.  What innovations and energy solutions would he give us to solve our problems?  Would we have the infrastructure and tools to even begin to support the methods he would advise?

Compare this to a professional engineer going back to the year 1011. How much could he do with the tools they had at the time? It would take a long time.  The obvious medical innovations would be staggering, like antibiotics and other easy to implement techniques. But to usher in a new world of technology would not be that easy.

It would be like sending a cellular phone back to year 1911.  What could they possibly do with that technology then?

As our technology gets more complex, it seems the infrastructure to support it becomes way out there. Imagine how difficult it is to refine uranium for a bomb. I'll bet the next energy innovation will not be a simple thing that we missed, but rather a method that approaches the complexity of a collider. The "easy" days of Marconi, Edison and Tesla are probably gone forever.

T

[K1DEU]

Not a pretty picture where we are headed Don.  I used to also use the term policing the world now a days I say Colonizing.

from my website  Of course we colonized the Native Indians

When it comes to America in 1760, America was a British Colony. By 1776 we Americans, who the British knew as the most treacherous, unfair cunning murdering Terrorists’ finally kicked the British out and established our own sovereign Republic Country.

 

When we study history 300 to 500+ years ago we find that the French, British, Spanish, Portuguese and many other powerful countries with their Warships traveled to many foreign countries with the intent to eventually return home with many stolen natural resources for the rich and famous. These resources included such a long list of thousands of items from Snuff/Cocaine to Poppies/Opium to Oil for Light, heat, and lubrication, Tobacco Gold & Silver.

 

Serving in northern Thailand in the 60’s we had a dirt runway and lived in tents. From bases like this, we sprayed and dumped into rivers and lakes Agent Orange defoliating much of Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. I and many friends often wondered why we Americans were there.

 

Some may remember when the French Colonized Vietnam and were kicked out by the sovereign Vietnamese citizen/terrorists’ around 1957. Next let us study why the French before 1957 allowed many of their colonies to nationalize with out a French puppet government. Now our curiosity is why did the French hold on to their Vietnam Colony longer than their other colonies?  Very simply the Crude Oil from the French Oil wells on the coast pumped Oil that was so clean with low sulphur content that it would run some diesel engines and Oil heaters directly with out any expensive refining. The same quality Oil is found in Iran, Iraq and the Sudan area but not in America.

 

A Merchant Marine friend of mine in the 1960’s was working on Oil Tankers loading in Vietnam and delivering pure Crude to Hawaii and eventually California. The U. S. Navy’s main job was to protect the costal oil wells and ocean going oil tankers. In case anyone forgot, the Vietnamese sovereign terrorists eventually kicked our American colonizing butts out of their sovereign land with God’s help. It is more than my wife and my sincere prayer/demand that no countries colonize foreign lands  to steal their resources or force a foreign/puppet type of government upon them for any excuse!

 

 

 

When one studies the Universe’s Fairness doctrine for all  Dimensions throughout the Universe. The pre-amble begins:

 

A sovereign geographic area/ country is allowed to defend its land area by any method necessary !   But not far outside of its air, land or water borders. Yes, foreigners’ may visit but only with the majority permission of the local nationals. Yes, many sovereign countries may trade their resources with those they respect without excessive financial advantage. Any countries colonizing other sovereign countries for any resource or political reason will soon meet their maker.

 

The Republic form of Government (documented by Aristotle) is used by the majority of all humankind in all dimensions !  Many of you know that America's founding Mothers and Fathers studied the previous failures of many Governments and properly wrote the original American Constitution and Bill of Rights with as many checks and balances so that the rich and famous could not have any advantage over the poor and middle class voters. It is more than sad that many of these precious documents original guidelines were altered or destroyed by individual powerful and rich people/lobbyists’.

John, K1DEU

[Bill, KD0HG]

Solar is becoming cheaper every year and it's projected to be comparable with the cost of a clean technology coal plant in a few years. The Chinese have taken a leadership role in developing photovoltaic technology. (Are we asleep at the switch again??)

Price for thin-film solar is now down to $1/watt (not including infrastructure). You can pay $300 retail for a 250-watt panel- Right now. A 500-megawatt coal fired power plant costs about 500 megabucks to build today..And you have to pay for the fuel forever...If I could afford it, you bet I'd install several KW worth of solar here...Just for grins. That atomic fusion generator in the sky blesses us with maybe a kilowatt of energy per square meter of earth's surface.

IMO.

[Steve - K4HX]

That atomic fusion generator in the sky blesses us with maybe a kilowatt of energy per square meter of earth's surface.

Therein lies the environmental problem. By putting up these solar panels we are blocking the sun and doing damage to the ecosystem. Besides that, they're just plain ugly. Putting them on every roof and skipping the big transmission lines may be a way around this problem. But now you are making each person responsible for their own electricity. GFL in our current coddled and helpless society.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

That atomic fusion generator in the sky blesses us with maybe a kilowatt of energy per square meter of earth's surface.

Therein lies the environmental problem. By putting up these solar panels we are blocking the sun and doing damage to the ecosystem. Besides that, they're just plain ugly. Putting them on every roof and skipping the big transmission lines may be a way around this problem. But now you are making each person responsible for their own electricity. GFL in our current coddled and helpless society.

it's 1kw/m^2 at the equator.  Slantwise through the Atmosphere in higher latitudes and it drops quiet a bit.  Not to mention Shorter solar days at those latitudes and foul weather.  If you're planning on running a pure solar power grid, and live anywhere real, you'd better have 2x capacity min and very efficient storage/inversion technology. It also helps to have converted your home over to a mostly DC with High efficiency lighting/appliances.

As a backup or secondary power source, it will work FB OM.  Just hit the grid when the output drops or load goes up etc. 

Solar Heating supplemented by renewable (like wood) is much much better idea. Save the Fossil fuels (what a misnomer!) and NG for other uses.

Methane is decent fuel and would work great as every home has a source of methane (toilet) built in.  But, it's also been labeled a "Greenhouse" gas, so good luck with that.

[WA1GFZ]

There is not a lot of motivation for young people to become engineers today. When we were kids engineers were treated much better than today. Now they are slaves to useless bean counters who want to outsource them.
hopefully things will change someday. where we put useless bean counters back in their place.
Maybe Kelly Johnson will come back and shake things up.

[WA1GFZ]

BTW there is a clean coal plant on Rt91 just north of Springfield Ma.
It is rare to see a little puff of white smoke come out of the stack

[W2XR]

There is not a lot of motivation for young people to become engineers today. When we were kids engineers were treated much better than today. Now they are slaves to useless bean counters who want to outsource them.
hopefully things will change someday. where we put useless bean counters back in their place.
Maybe Kelly Johnson will come back and shake things up.

Frank,

A very good friend of mine who is an EE (he has his MSEE), has remarked to me that in his opinion, aside from most registered professional engineers and consulting engineers, here in the U.S., engineering is a white collar job where you are frequently treated as a blue collar worker.

In many countries of the world, engineering is considered an extremely prestigious and honorable profession, with similar prestige accorded to doctors and and other highly esteemed occupations.

I guess here in the U.S., many young folks consider sports heros, rock stars, and celebrities as being more prestigious occupations, and this is what they aspire to be. Fast and easy money; that's what they want in many cases. Generalizing here, of course.

73,

Bruce

[W1RKW]

That atomic fusion generator in the sky blesses us with maybe a kilowatt of energy per square meter of earth's surface.

Therein lies the environmental problem. By putting up these solar panels we are blocking the sun and doing damage to the ecosystem. Besides that, they're just plain ugly. Putting them on every roof and skipping the big transmission lines may be a way around this problem. But now you are making each person responsible for their own electricity. GFL in our current coddled and helpless society.

Just to power NYC 24/7 by photovoltaic would take the equivalent of roughly 80% of the state of CT in real estate.

[W3SLK]

Frank said:

BTW there is a clean coal plant on Rt91 just north of Springfield Ma.
It is rare to see a little puff of white smoke come out of the stack

There is no such thing as clean coal! Ask 'El Presidente'.'  Now around here the Marcellus Shale is suppposed to have a HUGE gas supply. I was talking with one of the water drivers and he said they have now hit oil and anticipate a larger oil supply than what the Saudi's could ever dream of.

[K1JJ]

The day will come when our decendants drill down into the Earth and mine the molten energy there. Just imagine a controlled flow of magma to the surface and back down again through a pipe 100' in diameter.


Second step: Mining plasma from the sun - directly.

And last: Mining energy from the galaxy's black hole.
Speed of light travel will require mastering stage three.

These are stages one, two and three of advanced civilizations according to the book, "Hyperspace".

Right now we still reside in stage zero...  (lucky us)


T

[Steve - K4HX]

Black holes do not exist. They are merely artifacts of our very primitive methods of observing the universe.

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
Remember when we were kids and they told us "someday computers will do all the work and we will have plenty of free time". It didn't make any sense to me at the time.
I just hope we find fuel here before those low life own us.

[Steve - K4HX]

When computers do all the work, THEY will own us.

[N0WVA]

The LHC has the capability to give us knowledge to unleash energy via beyond quantum mechanics. I think our limited view of the material world is confining us to this blue marble. We have to reach past 186,000 MPS or we wont be able to sustain ourselves. Realizing mastery of quantum physics will unlock endless energy and space travel at the same time.

[WA1GFZ]

Mike,
Ash is still an issue but at least it isn't coming out of the stack.

[K1DEU]

At least Gore and others finally admitted that Green house gasses was a mistake and the Ole North and South poles are supposed to melt naturally every 13,000 years. And not from Coal, wood, etc.

Well at least the Spiritually Weak had a excuse to spend our tax money on the largest grass party/junket in Copenhagen.


The Marcellus Shale isn't even the tip of the iceberg for our Crude. Many people know that here ON LAND in North America we have easily 41 Times what the middle east ever dreamed of for Oil and Methane. And it ain't shale !





 John, K1DEU

[W3SLK]

Frank said:

Ash is still an issue but at least it isn't coming out of the stack.

Frank, ash isn't even the issue anymore. The fly ash at the nearby plant is used in making dry wall at the local US Gy[sum plant. The rest is handed over to other townships to be used on the roads.