Need some help with RFI guys.

[WV Hoopie]

Past issues in my neighborhood: All I had to do is call Comcast and use the words "leak in their cable plant & FCC" in the same sentence. In a couple of hours Comcast techs were there in a van, with the correct lab equipment. It is their system and will repair it at their cost. Just gotta use the correct language.

Craig,

[ke7trp]

Fred, If the booster is removed then the signal is poor.  Its not an option to remove it with the old coax.

All connectors are tight. I took a wrench them last time I laid in the ant hill and shrubs against the side of the house

In AZ, There is a DMZ point.  That point is the box on the side of the house. The cable co will not help past that box period without paying a service charge, parts and labor.  They will let you cancel the service before they do anything to the house for free.

C

[WA1GFZ]

Why would anyone go into a house and do free service?
Not the power co, telephone or water

[KA2DZT]

Fred, If the booster is removed then the signal is poor.  Its not an option to remove it with the old coax.

All connectors are tight. I took a wrench them last time I laid in the ant hill and shrubs against the side of the house

In AZ, There is a DMZ point.  That point is the box on the side of the house. The cable co will not help past that box period without paying a service charge, parts and labor.  They will let you cancel the service before they do anything to the house for free.

C

Just like the phone company.

For testing purposes, try to connect one TV directly to the incoming cable line without the amplifier and see if that clears up all the problems (even with snowy pictures.)

Is the problem on every TV in the house or only some??
Is the RFI on every channel or only some??
Is this analog TV or digital TV (snowy pictures?? must be analog??)

I find it to be strange that connecting a single coax (directly to one TV) to the incoming cable feed will give you snowy pictures on the one TV (no splitters).

If this is the case, you need to run a good piece of RG-6 from the cable feed directly to a TV.  For testing, just run it on the ground, in the front door, thru a window or whatever.

If after running a good cable to a single TV, you still have snowy pictures,  there is something wrong with the incoming cable signal.  Bad underground or overhead cable (or connectors) to the side of the house.

The cable tapoff from the main line should give you plenty of signal to run one or two TV's without amps.

To repeat what I've said earlier, the signal amp is most likely the cause of the RFI problems.  You need to confirm this by doing the single-TV test I outlined above.

If there is anything wrong with the incoming cable feed, it could be leaking signal (big no no).  Most cable systems have a beacon signal around 118Mhz.  If you have a receiver of sorts you may be able to hear the beacon if it's leaking.  The cable service trucks usually have beacon receivers on at all times to detect signal leakage.

the real Fred

[The Slab Bacon]

the amp might just be there to overcome the loss from a 5-port splitter. If all of the ports are no longer needed, it may pay to go to a 2-port splitter and try eliminating the booster / amplifier.

You may also have a common mode problem with the incoming 120vac line to the TV, try winding the power cord around a toroid. Or the cord to the amp as well.

Options:
4. Have the home owner call KB3AHE for spiritial advice

Yes, Frank's custom cussing service is always at your service!!
 We have whatever kind of good cussing you need in stock    

[W1AEX]

Clark,

I subscribe to Cox here in CT for television/phone/internet and also have a Scientific Atlanta SV-A15-2PRS amplifier that was installed at the entry point of the house to overcome signal level drops from where they split the line for the phone, and again where they split the line for the HD run, data run to the Docsis 3.0 modem, and distribution to 3 standard definition televisions throughout the house. The amp is bulletproof for RFI here and I have no phone/internet/television interference from 160 - 10 meters while running full legal limit power. No problems with 100 watts on 6 meters or 50 watts on the 2 meter band and 440 band. I did have to do some de-coupling where my old CAT-3 telephone wiring connected to the NID they installed. But that consisted of a couple of .01uf caps and a common mode choke made with about 10 feet of CAT-3 cable through a split ferrite core. I have to believe your neighbor has some unterminated runs of coax in the residence, or bad connections somewhere behind the walls.

When I had signal level issues here, Cox priced out how much it would cost for their techs to re-do the residential side of the wiring. It was enough that I figured I would do it myself. Then the service tech pulled me aside and told me to call Cox and order the residential wiring plan. It cost less than 3 bucks a month! With that plan, they will take care of of everything, period. He told me to order the plan, and then drop it after the work was done if I wanted to. I ended up doing a bundle with them and the residential wiring plan is part of the bundle. Your neighbor might want to inquire about that.

I know he is a good neighbor, but I would definitely not get involved with providing materials and labor to fix a service he is paying someone else to provide. It puts you right in his sights anytime a problem comes up. It really is between him and Cox to stop his television receiving system from acting like a shortwave receiver. As someone else mentioned in the thread, the problem could even be a plant issue out on the street.

I hope he gets the problem resolved successfully and quickly. Cox does have the resources to correct this problem. If the local techs are unable to resolve it, you or your neighbor might want to subscribe to this forum:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/coxhsi

You can post a description of the issue to the forum. The Cox techs that lurk there and help out appear to have all kinds of leverage to get things done. They know exactly who to contact at your local level to push things along. They have resolved several problems for me when Cox contractors who were sent out messed things up.

73,

Rob W1AEX

 

[WA1GFZ]

I also have COX. It works fine but their price sucks almost as much as their programming.
Comcast down south is even worse.

[KA2DZT]

Rob,

The SA amplifier might be bulletproof for RFI.  The problem I have is the snowy pictures he has without using the amp.  The case of the amp is probably shielded for 100+dB.  But, if signal leaks into the incoming cable feed, that signal gets right into the amp.  No amplifier, regardless of how bulletproof it is, can withstand not being overloaded by a very strong signal.  A strong nearby signal will just block the amplifier.

Clark just needs to determine if he can get a good picture with only one TV connected directly to the cable feed (using a known good piece of coax from the cable feed to the TV).  If he still has snowy pictures, then there is something defective with the cable from the main line to the house.  A bad cable feed will act like an antenna and allow Clark's signal to enter the amp.


the real Fred

[W1AEX]

Fred,

I agree with you regarding the signal level at the tap. If it's low, inserting a line amp in the residence is not a winning solution, and it may make issues caused by ingress on the street even worse. Plant problems on the street need to be fixed on the pole, not compensated for somewhere else. Personally, I would never troubleshoot a neighbor's cable installation. However, before Cox did their 1 GHz expansion and Docsis 3.0 upgrade to my area, I had piss poor signal levels from the street. I did exactly what you are suggesting to establish that, by running a straight shot of RG6 from the tap directly to my cable modem and taking a screenshot of the downstream signal level, which turned out to be 18 dB below the target Cox aims for. I then switched the RG6 run directly into my cable STD and ran the STD diagnostics to display the crappy signal levels, crappy SNR, and thousands of uncorrectable errors. When the tech arrived, and he understood that I knew it was a street issue, he got the trucks to roll to fix the problem. I also received a month's credit for my patience as I was not receiving the services I was paying for.

In Clark's case, it really is up to Cox and his neighbor to correct this. The Cox tech can plug his little meter into the residential tap and see exactly what's going on in less than 5 minutes. If the signal level is poor, he needs to roll the trucks. If the signal level is good, then the neighbor needs to take care of it, or pay Cox to fix it. If they can't or won't fix it, the neighbor will have to decide if it's time to switch to satellite. Clark is operating legally in a licensed service and has no responsibility what-so-ever for troubleshooting someone's cable installation. I love the statement that appears in the FCC correspondence to consumers who complain about interference to their coffee maker, toaster, phone, television, and whatever:

"The general rule is that consumer electronics are protected only by manufacturer design from receiving any unwanted radio signals and home electronics have no priority over any radio or broadcast service."

That pretty much says it all...

73,

Rob W1AEX

[KA2DZT]

Rob,

Thanks for all your input on this problem.

I spent the last 48 years working on TV antenna systems (fully retired as of Dec.) and have seen hundreds of RFI problems of every type you can think of and then some.

I agree with your comment about adding an amp to overcome a deficiency somewhere else in the system.

In Clark's case, I don't know if the amp is there to overcome the splitter loss or the amp is there to overcome a weak signal reaching the house from the cable system or both, or additionally to overcome high losses in old cable running to the TV sets in the house or all three.

Without measuring the incoming signal it's hard to tell exactly what the conditions are.

I still think the cause of Clark's RFI problem is the use of the amplifier.  Cable amps are usually wideband 5-1000Mhz.  Any of Clark's signal, even 75M and more so 40M, that gets into the amp will quickly overload it and block the cable signal.

Question is, how is the signal getting into the amp??  Something I just thought of, the amp is probably a two way amplifier.  So, it's possible the signal is leaking into the amp backwards from one of the drop lines.

Hard to troubleshoot a RFI problem in AZ from NJ.

I'm sure Clark will figure it out, hopefully.

Fred

[flintstone mop]

the amp might just be there to overcome the loss from a 5-port splitter. If all of the ports are no longer needed, it may pay to go to a 2-port splitter and try eliminating the booster / amplifier.

You may also have a common mode problem with the incoming 120vac line to the TV, try winding the power cord around a toroid. Or the cord to the amp as well.

Options:
4. Have the home owner call KB3AHE for spiritial advice

Yes, Frank's custom cussing service is always at your service!!
 We have whatever kind of good cussing you need in stock    

I'm thinking that the signal from the cable company is low and they are boosting to save their ass. Usually they can tap the signal up from their side. You might lose a couple of dB inside the house but not enough to make a snowy picture. Something is really wrong with this cable connection.
The OTHER FRED

[ke7trp]

This situation came ot a head yesterday.  We ran 17 meters SSB at 50 watts about 3 pm for about 10 minutes  No real contacts so we shut down and went back to BBq'ing for new years day.  The guy came to the fence and started screaming at me, my brother and my good friend.  He was very rude and I told him that we need to replace the coax and we would handle it next week.  He said " I am not doing anything, Its NOT MY PROBLEM, Its YOUR problem" and then yelled obcene comments at me.  Obviously, alcohol played a big roll here.

So,he made a stand saying that he would not do anything and that it was all me.  My Brother(extra) and my Friend both inspected my entire station, all grounds, Coax runs, Connectors, ect.. All grounds where Cleaned and tightened. We then transmited while watching on the motorola Station monitor. The icom is 60 DB down + No harmonics. Nothing. The station is 100%.

I printed off a copy of my license and Part 15.  I have made the choice to just operate as I normaly would and if he knocks on the door, I wont answer. If the cops come over, I will hand them the paperwork and explain to them that I am doing nothing wrong.

Its a shame that it came to this. We just purchased a 200ft roll of coax for him and where going to do all the work for free this week. Nothing is going to help with that RF booster shotgunning RF into his house.

Moral = Do not befriend your neighbors.

C

[WV Hoopie]

C,

Ya did the correct thing in trying. To bad the neighbor believes Rome was built in one day and couldn't wait. First step for these issues are for both parties to work in peace & get r done.

My point of view has already been said: Part 15 has turned out to be smoke n' mirrors. Manufacturers, their lobbiest, & the Fee Cee Cee created Part 15, unshielded, poorly designed crap, etc., and put the monkey on the cosumer's back.

More hams need to file official complaints with the Fee Cee Cee, flood them big time with complaints. Somehow get their attention focused on this issue. It ain't getting better folks.

Craig,

[flintstone mop]

From DEC 28, or so, to now JAN 2. You are now enemies with the nice neighbor with a TVI problem.
I'm surprised it went down hill that fast. They must watch TV all day. It's too late now. You might have asked what their viewing habits are and you would operate around their TV times until this went away permanently.
Coz it can be cleared up and you would have no worries.
I'm thinking the interference has been for a long time and he was hoping for a fast fix. Some people let something like this fester for weeks before going to the Ham op and complain.

Fred

[K6JEK]

...
The guy came to the fence and started screaming at me, my brother and my good friend.  He was very rude and I told him that we need to replace the coax and we would handle it next week.  He said " I am not doing anything, Its NOT MY PROBLEM, Its YOUR problem" and then yelled obcene comments at me.  Obviously, alcohol played a big roll here.
...

Lovely.  Excuse me if you've answered these questions already but a) is there TVI at your house or are you fine?  b) Is this with the vertical?

Sorry about the behavior of your neighbors.

[ke7trp]

Fred,  Alcohol is playing a roll.  We where all stone cold sober.

No TVI here.. Full legal limit. Phones, TV, stereo ect.. Is all perfect. No TVI at any other house around me.

Happens at 50 watts or higher on:

T368
GK500
Ranger 1
Icom 756 Pro
2x4 rig

Either one of my 2 verticals and the dipole wire.  Makes no difference.  Even 2 meter FM blasts through his TV.

The higher the band the worse it is. 17 meters SSB at 50 watts PEP is the worst.. 160 is not so bad.

The RF amp they put on the side of the house is rated at 15DB Gain.  Very close to this unit here:

http://www.amazon.com/Motorola-Signal-Booster-4-Port-Amplifier/dp/B000WPGRKK/ref=pd_cp_e_1_img



C

[Steve - K4HX]

We where all stone cold sober.

Well, there's your problem. 

[The Slab Bacon]

The guy came to the fence and started screaming at me, my brother and my good friend.  He was very rude and I told him that we need to replace the coax and we would handle it next week.  He said " I am not doing anything, Its NOT MY PROBLEM, Its YOUR problem" and then yelled obcene comments at me.  I printed off a copy of my license and Part 15.  I have made the choice to just operate as I normaly would and if he knocks on the door, I wont answer. If the cops come over, I will hand them the paperwork and explain to them that I am doing nothing wrong.
moral = Do not befriend your neighbors.

geeze, Clark!! that is so familiar, it is like I wrote it!! I went through the EXACT same thing and exact dialogue with one of my neighbors!! I offered to put common mode filters on his stuff to correct the problem. (For a rare change, I was being a nice guy) He told me the exact same thing: "It's not my problem, its your problem", put the filters on your stuff. He has even accused me of "burning up and destroying" 2 answering machines.

I proceded to tell him to "Go pound sand up your a$$!!" It all really came to a head about a year later when he cussed my wife out in the front street and reduced her to tears. (She was still crying and begging me not to do it when I stormed out the door.) That was enough for me I hit the ceiling!! I stormed out of the house and went up and knocked on his door. He wouldn't answer it (I guess not after what he did) I walked back home and fixed a cup of coffee and sat on my front porch waiting for him. (I knew he would be out later to walk his dog) I caught him and layed him out in front of all of the neighbors. I told him that I would put his nose through the back of his head and break every bone in his body the next time he did it. I wanted the rest of the neighbors to overhear it so they would know what an a$$ he was.

I have had obscene phone calls that hung up after cussing me out, even times when I wasn't even on the air!! I *69ed them and found out who it was and called them back, that stopped that cold!! One time I really pissed one neighbor off when she called me and cussed me out, bitching for me to "give it a break I havent been able to watch tv all day". I had worked all day that day and was in the kitchen cooking supper when she called. It really pissed her off when I invited her to come up and get a plate  

I used to run low power in the early evening hours, and the big rig late at night, just to be considerate of my neighbors. When I finally got enough of their szht I starting running the big rig ALL of the time. Then the advent of digital has now made just about all of it a moot point!!

I am sure that most of us here have had some kind of similar problems over the years. The bottom line is that it is THEIR problem and NOT ours!!

[ke7trp]

That reminds me of that new show on Spike TV about how to Firearm training. The guys from the old TV show "Simon and Simon" are on it.  He tells a story just like yours only the guy next door screamed at his wife after her dog crapped in his yard.  Jameson came home, saw his wife crying and knocked on the guys door. The guy answered the door and shot him instantly with a 357mag.  He lived.

You never know how these people really are. Best not to fool around with any of them.

I have been blamed for radio interferance many times over the years and the radio was off.  The first sign of trouble and people think its me.  The other neighbor though I could some how listen to here phone calls since she could hear me... hahaha.  I gave her a Kcom filter and that fixed it instantly.

C

[The Slab Bacon]

the best one of all was this one whacked out old biddy who lived 4 doors down from me. She was blaming me for her tv turning itself on and off, and changing channels by itself. It would only do it during the day while I was at work  

Quite often she would be waiting in my driveway for me to come home from work so she could give me a hard time. She would stand there for hours tapping her toe on the ground like an old school teacher. After I finally had enough of her, I cussed her out pretty good and told her to call the FCC. After cussing her back down to her house, that pretty much put an end to that. I'm told that she now resides in the looney bin.


After being blamed for so much crap that I had nothing to do with, the cries started falling on deaf ears!! (kinda like the old "boy who cried wolf" story)

And furthermore, the guy who used to fix their cars, lawnmowers, and other things for free now refused to do it anymore, and they had to dig into their pockets to boot!   

[KB2WIG]

Go sit in the bushes by your front door in the morning. Wear your nicest camo. Maye sure your face is nicely painted. Say good morning to your neighbors as they go to work. Your problems will be solved, or greatly minimized.


klc

P.S.
Invite them to have a burger and a beer when you grill at 7AM.

[flintstone mop]

the best one of all was this one whacked out old biddy who lived 4 doors down from me. She was blaming me for her tv turning itself on and off, and changing channels by itself. It would only do it during the day while I was at work  

HA! There was an RCA TV that would do that very same thing. Turned itself on and full volume, changed channels.

Fred

[WA1GFZ]

Gee you guys have all the fun.
Never under estimate the resources of a nut

[KC4VWU]

Sorry to hear about the harassment you're getting, Clark. SADLY to say, the first mistake you made was being a nice guy about it. Usually, in their (neighbor's) eyes that means you're a doormat for them to wipe their feet on. The attitude you get of "It's you're problem to fix, not mine; I'm not doing anything wrong" is just purely pass the buck syndrome. You can't or scarcely ever will fix that problem. Now that he's thrown down the gauntlet, there will never be an amicable agreement or solution; it will probably get worse. Just keep you're cool!

After dealing with this problem only one time in my past, I can tell you how I solved my problem. There wasn't even a reasoning period extended to me; I was just told I had better stop enjoying my hobby -- period.

Funny thing about neighbors; they have hobbies and special activities they enjoy also. All you have to do is think about it, remember their past activities and such. They may just inconvenience you also. Watch inconspicuously for a few weeks.

My offended neighbor had a penchant for large, loud outdoor parties with his friends nearly every weekend. The next time he approached me, I told him I would gladly call the nearest FCC field office to get an agent to come out and help with the problem right after I called the city police the next time I was disturbed by one of his parties. SILENCE.

I hate to sound so clandestine about the situation and I'm generally a pretty easygoing guy, but if'n someone steps on my toes, I can grow a D_CK on my shoulders just as quick as they can.

As a last resort, maybe this could be of help to you.

73, Phil     

[The Slab Bacon]

<snip> "My offended neighbor had a penchant for large, loud outdoor parties with his friends nearly every weekend. The next time he approached me, I told him I would gladly call the nearest FCC field office to get an agent to come out and help with the problem right after I called the city police the next time I was disturbed by one of his parties. SILENCE." <snip>

Sometimes beong a 300lb gorilla beating your chest works well, but it's always nice to have an "ace in the hole"    

I had one neighbor that had moved in 2 doors down and brought a hot tub with him.
for about 2 years I was blasted with a 25 over S9 or better hash level from his heaters in the tub. We had a discussion about me getting into his stereo. I told him that I had as much right to enjoy my hobby as he did. A couple of raucus parties with naked people running around the yard gave me the ammo that I needed to totally shut him up. He since fell victim to the recession and no longer lives there.

the bottom line is that if you live in a suburban area and want to enjoy this hobby, be ready for some RFI complaints!! It's gonna happen!!