Flat top w/ 50ft. Vert and about 90ft Horiz. to work with.

[Superhet66]

OK,  
If all goes well I should have my ticket in the near future and I need to start thinking about transmit again and not just receive...

A search for "DIPOLE" here in technical lead to a heap of info and opinions.
To spare the gang I did a lot of reading and I have an open mind. I'll describe what my QTH has to offer space wise, what equipment & material I have on hand and what my goals are freq. & power wise at the moment. I just don't think the G5RV is the way to go based on what I've read here and what i've been told.

I Have:
*A well constructed 102', G5RV in the air w/ 32' of 450ohm ladder feed that I will convert / cannibalize, add to, as needed.

*A virgin, Johnson 275w matchbox ( no PL259 provisions )

*An MFJ super tuner deluxe w/ open line option that has seen better days.

*An FT101E in decent shape w/ tube finals 

*A shack located at the center of a the present dipole & about 50ft directly below it.  

* Two healthy trees that now support the G5RV at about 50' high. The future flat top will have to be 90' or less in length to clear the canopy of leaves in summer.


* A 6 pack of suds when the climbing is done.


SO,
I would like a reasonably resonant dipole that gets along well with the Johnson tuna and Yaesu, on 80m thru 20m with 450ohm "cheap brown stuff" into the shack/tuner.
I don't want to take a bath in RF if I can help it and a true heavy guage, open ladder feed will be in the future as $ allows.

I guess the real question is what length will get me in the ball park as far as resonance / SWR and what multiple of 450 feed should I cut so I don't hit a node.
I need at least 65 ft or so to keep the feed vertical, then curve it to the out side wall and a heavy knife switch.
 

Pictures save a lot of time and are more interesting. I'll post some when I get a chance later in the week.
                                                                           Thanks,

                                                                                     Dylan

[N3DRB The Derb]

you'll need a am filter for the EE - already got one? if not I will give you my spare - it's a must have. buddly gave it to me so just passing it on if you need it

[Superhet66]

OK Derb.
I'll have to lift the lid. I'm pretty sure I have one in there but it's been 20 years and I'm 150mi away from my rig at the moment. The SK who owned it before me was a SSB person.                Thanks again, DJ                 

[ke7trp]

FT101s can sound full BC quality.  If not more.  Timtrons mods on one of those rigs was putting out 40 to 18K audio.  I was shocked.  I have heard several on the air with studio mics along side of guys running BC rigs. The FT101 had higher FI audio. The trouble is that if you dont limit the bandwidth, you will come on 20 KC wide and piss everyone off.  An FT 101 should have a carrier of about 20 to 30 watts max.

A good FT101 is a fine AM rig though. You need the am filter.  You wil want some kind of amplifier so start looking if you dont have one.  GOod AM starts to happen on the low bands about 200 watts of carrier in my opinon.

As for the antennas.  If you are going to run a dipole you have a few options:

1.  A resonant coax fed dipole for one band.
2. A 450 or 600 ohm fed antenna into a balanced tuner like the Johnson matchbox.  This will let you run 10 to 80 with one antenna and have little loss.  This is called a Zep by most people.

The G5RV works. Dont knock it.  Lots of guys run it.  If thats what you have, Run it. The key is to get on the air and start talking. 

Most of these antennas is going to be good for 500 to 800 miles on most days. When the band is in, anywhere...

I started out with a matchbox, a zep(van gorden all bander) and a ranger at 55 watts.  It worked very well and I had the option of using different bands.

My advice is to get online, Order 100 ft of the heavy 450 ohm ladder line. Run it to the matchbox, Put up as much wire as you can from 20 ft or higher horizontal.  You can get on 80, 40 and even 20 with that simple setup.

I am exploring the world of verticals now as I want to start talking farther out.

Clark

[The Slab Bacon]

Try this................been using it for years with no complaints. Workz good if you're a little stuck for space. With the right tuna, it'll get ya 160-10. It dont strap on 160, but it does work. It straps pretty good on 80, and 40. Especially if you got a little horsepower to push it. Although I have used it with piss-weakers and still been heard without any problems.

[WA2ROC]

If you have 1 or 2 more "healthy trees", you may want to try a large loop. 

For 80 meters you will need about 280 feet of wire arranged in any shape other than a straight linel

Mine is close to a triangle, 40 feet up and I have had very good luck with it

The Matchbox will adjust the impedance for you quite well.

[WD8BIL]

Since you didn't list 160 meters I'd replace the G5RV with a 1/2 wave on 80, middle band 3750Khz (468/3.75=124.8 ft), call it 125 feet center fed with balanced line. That'll tune you up on 40 and 20 FB OM!

But I'm just a buddly!!

[Superhet66]

Good stuff, thanks.
I was hesitant to even ask the dipole question with so much info out there and on here. It's funny that you guys brought up the folded dipole and loop. Both of those shook out of the mix as I read.
So there is no length of 450ohm feed line to avoid or seek ?

I found the folded dipole a good compromise tree wise and it would be interesting to fabricate. I collect old ant. insulators and I like to put them to work.

The "Zep" all bander puts me back out at 100+ ft and into the trees. I have a primary wire that bisects my QTH by "right of way" and it really screws things up. I could have 200+ft run at 60' with out the F'ing KV utility stuff here. I'm going to have to pay out of pocket to get it run up the driveway. It's keeping me from building a garage where I want it also. I'll have it moved one way or another.

I will use the G5RV for now but the leaves have grown in and I'm pretty sure they are touching the far ends of the wire. I'm going to try and cook them off there with H.V. from a Brutal neon sign transformer I have here. ( tree fire anyone?   )

Now I'm curious about what shape the audio section is in my Yaesu. If I remember correctly it was "gone thru" by a reputable ham in the 80's. I do remember a CW filter. I was frustrated with my code copy skills. It's still some thing I would like to overcome. I really want to work solar QRP CW up in the park here.

A loop for 160m has been in the back of my head for a while. I'll bring that up after I do some more homework. I have some ideas for pex or the sched. 40 PVC as a loop material with the conductor in the center. I'll save that for a seperate post.

Truth be told, fabrication is what really keeps my interest. I can't drive by a some  "High Tension" towers up here with out thinking how nice it would be to convert them to RF service. I've been obsessed with towers and antennas since I was 9 or 10 yrs old.


Thanks again, this weekend should be interesting!
                                                                       DJ in NY

[K1JJ]

DJ,

Forget the G5RV....gimmick ant.  You have a tuner, so make good use of it.

For the best pattern, take-off angle and efficiency, put up a simple, flat dipole fed with quality openwire. Make the openwire (and dipole) from #12 or bigger wire with good spacers made of Delron? Teflon or similar material. It's easy to make and you don't need a lot of feedline from your description. The dipole wire is just as important as the openwire for losses - use #12 or larger. The shorter the antenna below 1/2 wavelength long, the bigger the wire needs to be.

Important:  Put the dipole up as high, FLAT and straight as possible.

BEST CHOICE: With 80M as your lowest band, if pressed for space and high supports, make it 90' long, open wire fed and you will be better able to fit it into a flat, high space and also have a great pattern on 40 and 20M.  Make it 130' long and the 20M pattern breaks into a 4-way cloverleaf.

But, a high, flat dipole that is 125' long for 80M and 40M is ideal.  Be sure the dipole is broadside to your favorite directions on 40M cuz the pattern is sharp with 2.5db gain.

It is more important to get the dipole high, flat and straight rather than long. For 80M I'd rather have up a 90' long dipole fed with openwire that is erected textbook high and straight rather than a 125' or 260' that zigzags and gets lost in the trees near the ground.   A flat dipole is always better than an inverted vee. You want to shoot for a minimum 90' for 80M or 180' for 160M dipole length  - or consider a Slab Bacon arrangement.

Another approach is to use simple, separate coax-fed dipoles for each band. Or a fan dipole coax fed for several bands, though with your 90' limitation, this will not work for 80M.

If you follow these simple guidelines, you will save yourself months of experimenting and being PW on the bands.

T

[Superhet66]

Well,
High, Flat and Straight I can do.... and 90' gets me out of the foliage.
So by default, It looks like open ladder to 90' with the J. Matchbox for now.  

If the neighbors thought I was kooky before, wait till they see the circus monkey ladder to the high wire act in the trees.   

Once I kick Central Hudson G&E out of my back yard I'll have space for dedicated, tuned ants. and all kinds of short wave shenanigans.

In case you guys think I'm messin' round, a trim job on a 50' Maple in the path of my dipole project turned into a 2 day, knock down, drag out tree felling.
Did it by my self, with a 30yr old chainsaw and 120" of marine nylon rope. (Sat & Sun )
I have a half cord of firewood drying for next year for my efforts also 

                                          Thanks guys,
                                                   I'll have pics as i go.
                                                                  DJ

[Superhet66]

Whoops.....double posted 

[K1JJ]

DJ said:
"High, Flat and Straight I can do.... and 90' gets me out of the foliage.
So by default, It looks like open ladder to 90' with the J. Matchbox for now. "

Good decision!   On 40M it will be up about 3/8 wavelength  with 2db gain - this will be your best antenna for both DX and moderate work of the three bands.  On 80M it will be a good local antenna that will be par with anything else.

Since it's in the clear, it will have a great pattern, less interaction with surrounding ground objects -and have low losses with the openwire feedline.

You will be very pleased with that set up. Just be sure to use quality feedline spacers, quality end insulators and #12 or #10 wire throughout.

If you have trouble getting a match on the Matchbox for all bands, try a slightly different feedline length or add some more range to the input link of the tuner. Be sure to mount the Matchbox at the point where the openwire enters the shack. (On the wall, etc.}  Run the feedline away from the dipole at a strict right angle for at least 60' if possible. A drop straight down to the ground (7' above ground) and a right angle to the shack wud be perfect.

An antenna like you propose is a work of art and is about the least neighbor-offensive... but still VERY effective.

Let us know how it works out.

T

[W2DU]

DJ, please take K1JJ's comments seriously and forget the G5RV--it works, but nothing to be gained from using it over a simple dipole of at least 90'. Follow his other suggestions and you'll come out very pleased with the results.

Walt,W2DU

[K1JJ]

Just to show I have nothing against using open wire and antenna tuners,    here's a 1988 shot of four of five "K1JJ Super Tuners"  I used in the shack.  They were pretuned to various directional wire arrays that all used complex openwire phasing - for instant switching.

The openwire you see is #5, copper covered aluminum. It came from an 18,000' scrap spool that was hardline inner conductor. I went thru all 18,000' in 2 years of experimenting. I had a single 150' tower at the time. Using an early 386 computer and MiniNec as a modeling guide, I tried every wire antenna array known to man...  The biggest was a 36 element Sterba curtain array (with reflectors) for 20M. It was about 180' wide and 90' high.

These days I use all hardline and coax to feed 50 ohm or lower antennas using low impedance matching. No more openwire.  I find hardline/coax easier to run underground and more environmentally stable. No other reasons, really.

T

[Superhet66]

OK,
Woof, 18,000 ft, I feel lazy now...
( Geeze, is thata solid state amp for the portable fone too? juss kiddin. )

I really need to get things together here workshop wise. I have MUCHO raw materials and tools but it's all been on hold for a garage/shop that I haven't built yet.
BEAR may stop by my QTH this weekend, he will verify all this  

Any info on type and source for #10 or #12  ant./feed wire?
( that resists stretching once drawn, solid or strand )



* I'm the neighbor that people come to for tools, material, help lifting things, plow outs, toaster and tractor repairs, dog advice, reloading, welding, beer and firewood to name a few.
I provide entertainment in the form of impulsive hobby projects. They can kiss my cubical quad if there's an issue   but there won't be.
RFI wise, every one has cable or Sat.

                                               Tanks for the pics/ info guys        
                                                                                     D.

The Backhoe is my best pal here.

[K1JJ]

DJ,

Sounds like you will eventually have a big station there, no doubt.

For wire, pick up a 500' reel of HomeDepot black PVC insulated, stranded #10.  Use that for both the flattop, openwire and future projects. It will be heavy, so also pick up some 3/16" "aircraft" steel cable to run thru the tree crotch/limbs or whatever you use for support. Friction will break most ropes - you need steel cable.  Use pulleys with strong rope to hoist up the dipole itself.  Support it in the middle, otherwise you will need to keep it slack or find a way to cushion the wind induced pulling.

T

[WBear2GCR]

Ahmagonna eye ball DJ's QTH in poyson this weekend... we'll see what we'll see.

I may have him capacity coupled to the entire HV power line before I am done! (only kidding)

we'll see what there is to see... no telling right now. I've scoped his QTH via the satellite imagery available, but that doesn't
tell the story.

I'll report back to the mother ship.

                       _-_-bear

[k4kyv]

My dipole is 119' high at the apex and droops down to 100' at each end.  The apex angle is about 135°.  I consider it more of a horizontal dipole than an inverted vee.  I could use the same rigging and erect a true flat top horizontal dipole at 90'. That would give less of a null at near vertical angles and better results at closer-in distances. I have often wondered if it would make any significant difference at greater distances.

But then, using the tower as a vertical for 160, that would change it from a 119' vertical tee to a 90' vertical tee.  I figure the tower  length above the dipole is pretty much wasted as far as the vertical radiator is concerned.

When I first designed and built it years go, I hadn't predicted that the dipole would have that much effect on the performance of the vertical, but the close proximity of the tower to the feed line going up through the middle of it causes the dipole to have a profound effect.  The legs of the dipole could just as well be bonded directly to the tower.

I was very careful to balance the lengths of the legs of the dipole and the angle of slope on each leg.  There is practically zero coupling between the dipole and the vertical tower. The tower is insulated at the base, so with it floating free from ground, it is a half wave on 80m, so it should be resonant.  I can run a full kw to the dipole, and not a trace of rf shows up at the base with vertical feed wire disconnected.  I can adjust the 80m tuner feeding the dipole to exactly 1:1 SWR and ground and unground the tower and it makes only the tiniest microscopic flicker of the meter pointer in the reflected power position.

The dipole works well on 160 as a 1/4-wave dipole, even though the tuner setting is very critical and I can QSY maybe +/- 5 kc/s without having to readjust the tuner. I used it on 160 before I installed the ground system, and worked all over N. America.  I didn't bother to try feeding the vertical tower without any radials.

Given that experience, in your situation I would put up a 90' long dipole and feed it with open wire feeders tuned with the Matchbox and you should be in business.  I would aim for 80' to 90' of open wire feeder if possible.  That would keep the dipole leg + feedline length at 125'-135', and the reactive component of the load as seen by the tuner at a minimum on all bands. I have never had good results trying to feed an open wire resonant line near the midway point between maximum voltage and maximum current.

[K5UJ]

It's almost easier (and more fun) to list antennas to avoid.  I'll take a stab based on my experience and working others with bad signals and what I've been told over the years and observing what professionals do (broadcasters usually):

For simple vertical and wire antennas anything manufactured is suspect.  This is because usually they use marginal materials that may not hold up to AM or legal limit AM.  What are the problem points?  Traps, stubs, baluns, or mechanically cheap flimsy material to name a few.  Possible exception, the Hygain HyTower but look at what one costs new.  Then ask yourself if you will use a ground mounted vertical on the high bands where a high dipole, quad or beam are much more feasible.  Now you start thinking you can do better for less, making a vertical for 80 and 40.

Anything that covers all bands with low vswr at feedpoint all across every band.

Anything physically small:  B&W folded dipole, anything made by GAP, any 43 foot vertical, Isotrons, EH Antenna.
Any modern manufactured transmatches (tuners) made for hams.  Ditto for coax switches.

Carolina Windom
Off center fed dipoles
G5RV
Anything with Miracle, Mystery, or Junior in its name.
Anything that uses a balun or unun at or in the antenna or in the feedline to it.
Loaded antennas with the exception of capacitance hats.
Inverted Vee if the ends are under 30 or 40 feet off the ground.
Most "stealth" antennas:  They often are made with super skinny wire, or are in attics, or are concealed too close to the ground.

There are simply physical laws that can't be circumvented.  The basic key to success is found in getting what you want but playing by nature's laws instead of trying to get around them.  The most clever of these something for nothing antennas work well enough to lull users into a feeling of complacency.  "It's good enough," or, "I work everyone I want to."  (But they don't hear me very well.)  They also have an appeal because some of them are easy.   Genuinely good antennas are usually not quite as easy to construct but are worth it after the work is done.  Some things above may work electrically but fall apart mechanically.  Others may start out working (depending on how you define working) but wind up being unreliable after being outside for a year.

I've probably forgotten some but maybe you all can add to the list.  Some may object to some of these I've included.  If you put up a 1/2 wave center fed flat dipole at 50 feet or more, feed it with ladder line and a link coupled tuner and your carolina windom blows it away and handles a 30 minute 350 w. carrier I will gladly eat crow and thank you for the information.


rob

[The Slab Bacon]

I have never quite understood the advantage of a "windom". 

How does one properly feed a 1/2 wave antenner that is not symetrical to the feedline?? It would not be balanced or feed properlu if it was 1/2 wave. At least in my humble opinion. It looks like a nightmare to tame as far as radiating feedline and rf in the shack issues go.

Now, if you made one leg 1/4 wave and the other leg 3/4 wave it should (at least in theory) work out to somewhere in the 50 ohm range feeding it bacially at a current point. And possibly offa some gain? I dont think that configuration would be considered a "windom" ??

As far as the famous (or imfamous) G5RV abomination, IIRC it was originally designed to be a 80-10 "all band" antenna that gave a 50 ohm match WITHOUT a tuner. First of all If you need a tuna with yours, you've defeated any advantage of it. Secondly, to work properly it needs to ba installed EXACTLY per textbook as the parallel line feeder part is a radiating element on one of the bands. I have never seen anyone put one up properly. And 3rd and most important I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE THAT IS USING ONE HAVE A REAL SIGNAL they are all piss weakers.

The bottom line is: Put up as much wire as you can, find a good way to feed it, and put out a signal.

But, I guess some are happy to brag about their "carolina windom" and "beatin up on the biscuit burner"   

                                                          The Slab Bacon

[Superhet66]

All I can say is search " Dipole " on e-bay for some solid entertainment.  

There are some reputable / knowledgeable fellas hocking there wares on e-bay but also a lot of snake oil... eg: "miracle slinky and super slinky" antennas with a warning about RF exposure, so they are not just talking DX listening.

Don, That's got to be a sight at 119ft.  I guess with the guys and tower it's a testament that the two arrays don't couple. Did you secure a source of ladder line insulators and have you built the feed? ( I'm going to search the posts, I remember a long thread about ladr. insul. sources not long ago. )

With out getting too far out there, I have friends who sculpt / blow glass in New England.
I've been thinking it would be interesting to have them cast a series of retro looking ladder line insulators in glass. I've watched them cast all kinds of objects ( including dead mice and toy cars ) just goofing around.
Something about a clear glass ladder set sounds real nifty.
 
Here's an interesting Question: Would glass w/ a high lead content screw up the dielectric effect w/ RF ?
                                DJ

[WBear2GCR]

Glass is kinda brittle, and heavy for ladder line use.

If glass is used for insulators it is often "Pyrex" or tempered glass to make it less prone to breakage...
typically glass is used for end insulators on big ants, but again, it breaks.

the lead in glass does not effect its insulative qualities afaik.

                   _-_-bear

[k4kyv]

Maybe some  hams are actually limited by legal restrictions, but that mentality has spread to the point that many (I hear conversations over the air about it all the time) are afraid to put up a visible, high profile, effective antenna even when there are no anti-antenna laws or HOA rules on the books to keep them from it.

If hams continue to sneak around on their own property with their tails tucked firmly between their legs to put up "stealth" antennas that are not legally necessary, the situation is only going to get worse and new legal restrictions will come down.

It's almost getting to the point that fear of antennas has become institutionalised, and stealthy antennas are expected and assumed. The situation is worse to-day than it was back in the bad old days of harmonic TVI and fringe areas.

[Superhet66]

Well if I put my money where my mouth is I'll have a nice, visible set up Don.
There's just something hypnotic about wire antennas and towers. ( as if I have to say that here)
If I've been away from the house for any time the first thing I look for is the height of the coax to 450ohm junction. If it's at about 12 feet things are probably in one piece.

I'm a good neighbor.
I keep my lights on motion detectors or timers,
( light pollution is a pet peev of mine )
I keep my collection of materials neat and out of sight.
My dog only does her business in my woods & is quiet.
I just need to get over worring what people think of my hamminess.
A cutie pie that lives back up the dirt road behind me thought I figured out how to steal cable when I was rassling w/ RG8U on the roof. I laughed and explained what I was up to. She just tilted her head and smiled.  
When the leaves are up I can't really see any neighbors. I can wizz of the front porch if I like....( I guess anyone can, I just don't risk a summons    )

                                                            DJ

 

[ke7trp]

How about the maypole?  Lots of guys in AZ use them.  BIG signals. Simple to make and put up. 

Also.. Alot of AMers I know recently switched to the Cobra ultra lite.   This is shortened dipole that has three wires.  Some actualy gained signal here.  Everyone loves them

C