The AM Forum
May 05, 2024, 06:30:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Links Staff List Gallery Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Modulated oscillators??  (Read 4968 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
wb4iuy
PW in NC
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 98


My Contest Station


WWW
« on: March 14, 2010, 10:03:09 AM »

I've been hearing different folks talk about this on the air recently, and had not heard one (that I know of) until last night. I was out in the workshop, tinkering on my old RAX-1, and thought my Heathkit receiver had blown a gasket. I walked over to it, tuned back and forth, and couldn't tune in what sounded like an am signal. Switched to lsb, and it then seemed to be Fm. The signal stopped, I switched back to AM, and someone else sounded OK. They commented on the 'Side Band Elminator', hehehehahahahahahaha... it was Timtron on some sort of modulated osc.

Are they typically that wide? I only have a 6khz am filter in the heath, so I couldn't spread my rx out any more on that rig.

How are these typically modulated?

Wet behind the ears,
Dave WB4IUY
Logged

kb3ouk
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1636

The Voice of Fulton County


« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 10:08:14 AM »

I think that Timtron uses plain old plate modulation with his SBE, which also causes it to FM to a degree, giving it what sounds woopwoopwoop (like Curly of the three stooges).
Shelby
Logged

Clarke's Second Law: The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is by venturing a little past them into the impossible
wb4iuy
PW in NC
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 98


My Contest Station


WWW
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 10:12:38 AM »

I heard someone mention in recent nights, that they had seen a carbon mic placed in series with the plate supply, to modulate an osc? WOW, a slap of plate voltage across the lips could get yer attention!

Dave WB4IUY
Logged

kb3ouk
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1636

The Voice of Fulton County


« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 10:21:15 AM »

I wonder if anyone has every tried to build a solid state SBE. I don't know how well it wold work but i think it could be possible.
shelby
Logged

Clarke's Second Law: The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is by venturing a little past them into the impossible
Knightt150
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 286


« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 03:17:05 PM »

I had my receiver on last night about about 9:30 pm central standard time and heard it. It sounded terrable. No way to influnce new comers to AM.

John W9BFO
Logged
kb3ouk
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1636

The Voice of Fulton County


« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 04:31:07 PM »

From what i've heard of it it doesnt sound too bad, but it wouldnt be as bad listening to it when the band is quite and there are no other carriers on the frequency for it to beat against. You probably wouldnt even be able to tell that it was drifting around, if it didnt have anything to beat against.
Logged

Clarke's Second Law: The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is by venturing a little past them into the impossible
wb4iuy
PW in NC
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 98


My Contest Station


WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 05:25:02 PM »

From what i've heard of it it doesnt sound too bad, but it wouldnt be as bad listening to it when the band is quite and there are no other carriers on the frequency for it to beat against. You probably wouldnt even be able to tell that it was drifting around, if it didnt have anything to beat against.

Yeah, some of the guys said they set their receivers out pretty wide and it sounded OK, so I figured my Heathkit SB-301 with the 6khz filter was just too narrow for it.

BTW, I was on wbcq.com shortwave's website today while listening to them from the workshop, and saw a link and info about Timtron on there. They've had a bunch of ham-related stuff on there (7.415) this afternoon. Pretty cool...

Dave Wb4IUY
Logged

kb3ouk
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1636

The Voice of Fulton County


« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 05:37:07 PM »

I think it was monday i heard Timtron talking on 75 while mobile and he said he was on his way up there, friday allan weiner said on his show that they were having some work done on the am broadcast transmitter up there so that must have been where tim was going
Logged

Clarke's Second Law: The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is by venturing a little past them into the impossible
steve_qix
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2592


Bap!


WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 10:22:32 AM »

Running a modulated oscillator on HF is a menace.  They sound really bad as compared to a normal AM signal on any receiver - even a broad one (like mine).

It *used* to be illegal to run a modulated oscillator, and this was in the FCC rules.  The section was eliminated, I suppose, because the FCC thought no one would ever run such a thing in this day and age, and considered the rule superfluous.

When you have incidental FM on and AM signal, the sidebands generated by the FM signal add to, or cancel the AM sidebands resulting in a signal with more energy in one sideband than the other.  Furthermore, depending on the IF slope, the FM will be demodulated improperly adding more distortion.  The carrier and power input of modulated oscillators can be unsteady, resulting in dropout and overmodulation.

Such a thing is only effective as an 'SBE' if the interfering sideband signals are more or less zero beat with the AM signal, -and- if the AM signal is very strong.

If you really want to make an 'SBE', don't use a modulated oscillator - use something that PULLS the oscillator to a greater or lesser degree depending on the peak modulation.  The pulling should take place at a low frequency (a few cycles per second max) and could pull the oscillator several hundred cycles one way and the other.

In this way, you get the wobulation effect without the incidental FM of the actual audio. 

I confess to having built a VFO to do this back in the 1970's, tying the FM input of the VFO to a quasi-peak detector detecting the AM, with about a 200ms decay time.  Effective to its purpose, but not distorted.  I used this VFO system with a KW input rig (a pair of 304TLs modulated by 833As).  The oscillator would pull a few hundred cycles in either direction, depending on the modulation level.  Most of the time the FM input was not active.

I AM NOT ADVOCATING SUCH A THING, but simply saying if one insists on trying to create an 'SBE', there are far better ways to go about it than using a modulated oscillator   Wink
Logged

High Power, Broadcast Audio and Low Cost?  Check out the class E web site at: http://www.classeradio.org
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10037



« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 12:01:15 PM »

I think the FeeCee deleted the rule about simultaneous AM and FM at the same time they deleted the rule about exceeding 100% modulation.  It was in some proceeding where they decided to "clean up" the rules.  I seem to recall it was included in new purity standards they enacted as part of the R&O for bandwidth Docket 20777, but it may have been during one of the numerous "restructuring" proceedings during the late 70's and early 80's. I always figured it was an inadvertent omission as they re-worded the rules more or less without AM in mind.

In the new power limit rule they also deleted the requirement to have means of accurately measuring transmitting power.  It used to be that you were required to have accurate instruments whenever the nominal power input exceeded 900 watts.  They stated a reason for deleting the measurement requirement: they admitted that accurate rf power measurement was difficult enough technically that in many cases the average ham could not be expected to be able to do it. Approximately quoting, R&O stated that "modern day amateurs may use methods other than accurate measurement to determine power output". (WTF Huh)

In the early days of SSB there was some experimentation with simultaneously phase modulating the carrier that was amplitude modulated the usual way, to produce SSB.  As I recall, along with the phase modulation (very close to the same thing as FM) some sort of pre-distortion of the audio was required for the amplitude modulation.

As might be expected, SBE makes the signal impossible to receive with the sync detector. 
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
WU2D
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1797


CW is just a narrower version of AM


« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 01:37:36 PM »

Here is a pretty cool modulated oscillator that may just stay close to frequency - simple and it would work great with a 6SA7 followed by a 6AG7 into an 807 linear. Use a 6J5 as the speech amplifier and Don's D-104. I like the RF feedback.

http://dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf%20/amtx-2.htm

Mike WU2D
Logged

These are the good old days of AM
WA1HZK
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1104


WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2010, 03:30:31 PM »

Or you could just set your DX-100 exciter to VFO.
 Wink
Logged

AM is Not A Hobby - It's a "Way of Life"!
Timmy, Sometime in 2007 on a Mountain Far Away..
www.criticalradio.com
www.criticalbattery.com
www.criticaltowers.com
www.criticalresponder.com
Official Registered "Old Buzzard"
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
 AMfone © 2001-2015
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.058 seconds with 18 queries.