The End of Loran (Finally)

[W2XR]

I just saw the following bulletin on QRZ.com this evening. I was under the false impression that Loran had been put to sleep years ago:

"Good Night, Loran

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a series of small ceremonies, the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday shut down Loran-C, a navigation and timing system that has guided mariners and aviators since World War II.

The death blow came last May when President Obama called the system obsolete, saying it is no longer needed in an age in which Global Positioning System devices are nearly ubiquitous in cars, planes and boats.

Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said. But supporters of Loran -- including the man known as "the father of GPS" -- say the nation's increasing reliance on GPS paradoxically has increased the importance of maintaining Loran as a backup.

At 3 p.m. Monday, the U.S. Coast Guard turned off Loran signals at 19 of the 24 Loran stations. Signals remain at five stations because of agreements with Russia and Canada, but the Coast Guard expects those stations to be decommissioned by June after the United States receives verification that those countries have been notified of the change.

The five stations that temporarily remain on line are at Attu, in Alaska's Aleutian Islands, and Caribou, Maine; Nantucket, Massachusetts; Shoal Cove, Alaska; and George, Washington."

- from CNN/Reuters

73,

Bruce

[K5WLF]

I have some serious reservations about shutting down the Loran-C system in favor of going solely to the GPS system. The convenience and accuracy of GPS, under ideal conditions, is unmatched. However, a solar event can take GPS down, leaving ships and aircraft without vital positioning information. The old Loran-C system, although a bit clumsy and requiring special charts and a bit of thought, was reliable and not as subject to solar anomalies. I fear that we may have done ourselves a disservice in shutting Loran-C down. And, you know, considering all the recent government expenditures, $190M over 5 years isn't really that much money to ensure a good backup navigational system.

ldb

[n4wc]

I thought it was loran-A that required all those charts etc.  Loran-C receivers in acft were kind of automagic ;-).

73

[K5WLF]

I thought "C" needed the special charts too. I could very well be wrong. I've been wrong many times in the past (no really, I have). Either way, I think we may have dumped Loran way too soon.

ldb

[KB1IAW]

LORAN C receivers get the information as TD's  (time difference) from the transmitting stations. Later model receivers would convert that info to Lat/Lon but the pure data is in TD. Lots of fishermen still set their fixed gear along TD lines.

[n1exi]

working in the marine industry for a few years GPS has become one of the tools of the trade - setting waypoints - locating a vessel set by lat/long - but if what i'm gathering from doomsayers comes to be true with the telling of a geo magnetic disturbance taking out the system - then keeping plan B seems to make sense.
greg - n1exi

[KL7OF]

3 years ago I flew an aircraft equipped with Loran C receivers from 29 Palms, Calif to King Salmon, AK and the Loran coverage was very spotty at best.....This was taking a mostly coastal route...Plan A navigation was using handheld GPS....Plan B nav was the sectional and WAC charts with whiskey compass assist.......Plan C is to go low level and follow the hiway...Loran was plan D

[K3ZS]

Isn't this Loran on 100 KHz?   The one on 160M went out years ago.

[W3SLK]

I think someone here said "....this is disturbing news...". I tend to agree with them. Wasn't it just a few months ago that the big news was GPS stood the risk of failure due to the lack of satellites to replace those in the current constellation? I don't know how many 'billions of $$' will be saved by replacing these sites but I certainly hope that the US isn't placing all its eggs in one basket by relying on GPS.

[W3RSW]

Doesn't take any imagination to think that the first war objective of the three to five major nations is to take out satellites or command and control systems of the enemy(s).  C^3'd and all that.

 That capability will, of course, extend in time to 'emerging' powers just as has nuclear technology over the years.

But does 'taking out' mean your own GPS navigation dependency?
Only if you have a plan B, or the situation is so dire that you've deployed everthing on inertial guidance, local electronic sun/star sensing or other means in a one shot salvo.

As usual, interesting possibliities for the war gamers and obviously ratchets up risk and reward.

So does eliminating Loran and older technologies present more or less risk?

So here's to the Lt. JG's on the poop deck taking those noon shots.   Study up on your sine's and cosines, boys...

[Ed/KB1HYS]

It does seem like putting all your eggs in one basket, especialy considering the cost and effort to replace a GPS satellite.  We've been spoiled by a period of relative solar calm.  What will they do when the sun spots return (they will, won't they??) and ol' sol begins spewing again. 

From a strategic stand point, antisat can be done for a fraction of the cost of GPS or comsats, especially if your forces are not satellite dependant (HF Coms etc).

[N4LTA]

I do quite a bit of offshore fishing off the SC coast out to 80 NM or so. I use GPS  - I have two GPS receivers - But about 75% of the sport fishing fleet still used Loran C. They are not happy at all - They always talk about running a certain loran line - I guess they won't anymore.

Loran C was still very heavily used and Loran receivers were still available new a year or so ago.

If the GPS system failed on a given summer day - there would probably be 50 boats heading out to sea trying to get home. There are many hobby mariners who don't know what a compass is or how to use one - they are number punchers and haven't a clue as the what lat /long   is other than numbers to punch into a GPS.


When I run out - I always make a mental note of my bearing from home so I can run a reverse route if I lose nav. It would get me close enought to ID shore landmarks to get me back to port.

Pat
N4LTA

[WU2D]

Not quite Yet...Obama says to hams put up or shut up.

Thursday, February 11, 2010
Radio Amateur Volunteers to Save LORAN

Earlier this week President Obama announced that the aging LORAN navigation system would be deactivated, saving the U.S. $190 million over the next five years. Radio amateurs were vocal in their opposition to the deactivation, claiming that the antiquated system was a good backup if GPS failed.

This morning President Obama reversed the decision, calling upon amateur radio volunteers to assist in the situation. "Today we ask radio amateurs, also known as 'hams' to help save the LORAN system. Hams came to the aid of their country in World War II, providing over 30,000 radio operators. Today we are asking for 500 amateur radio volunteers to run the system over the next five years."

Details were sketchy at the press conference, however a press release later in the day stated that volunteers would receive only room and board in LORAN station facilities, and the program would save a half billion dollars over the next 20 years. FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski applauded the decision noting that radio hams are known for their technical astuteness with antiquated systems and World War II technology, and were likely the best qualified to keep the obsolete system running for decades to come.

Senate Republicans who several days ago were critical of the administration for making a "foolish decision" to deactivate LORAN which would "compromise national security" released a statement in response to today's reversal calling the decision to keep LORAN running "another example of reckless spending that will increase the deficit and threaten freedom", vowing to block all attempts to keep the system running.

ARRL officials were excited over the decision, announcing that all hams who volunteered at the LORAN stations could append a /L to their callsigns, in celebration of the saving of the LORAN network.

Reaction to the program to save LORAN on amateur radio forums and on the air was mixed with many questioning whether CW proficiency would be required of volunteers in order to insure that only technically qualified individuals would be operating the LORAN transmitters.

[W3RSW]

You scooped me.  I was going to reveal all on 4/1/10.

I've got my "/LBag" all packed with connectors, spare LorC receiptors, everything.

..and I was the first to sign up for the privatized  heavy launcher/ moon exploration thingy too.  Started making up a "/BSbag" for that duty.  We're supposed to get free surplus equipment if we can ship it.  Anyone have a float and tractor for some Nike booster transport?

[Opcom]

it is foolish to shut down LORAN, I hope there will be volunteers to operate it.

[WA1GFZ]

My buddy worked on the Bermuda CG station in the '70s and we visited in in the '80. Girls were not impressed but they had a beautiful HF antenna. I could spend a little time there and remember how a tube flip flop works.

[N2DTS]

I don't want big government running stuff like loran.
A big tax waste.
Same with GPS, why does the government have to do it, why not let XM run it and charge the people who need to use it?
I don't have it in my car, or the shack, and don't see why I must get taxed to run it.

How is it the government ever got into this business in the first place?

It seems to me that non government companies used to run all the ship to shore traffic, why not location finding systems.

I heard a lot of space stuff got cut, good for them, the Russians or Chinese can launch that stuff much cheaper than nasa can.

Brett
 

[WB2EMS]

I heard a lot of space stuff got cut, good for them, the Russians or Chinese can launch that stuff much cheaper than nasa can.

And using our dollars, will get lots of practice and technological development to learn how to launch 'other' stuff too...

Is that a good thing?

[k4kyv]

I don't want big government running stuff like loran.
A big tax waste.
Same with GPS, why does the government have to do it, why not let XM run it and charge the people who need to use it?
I don't have it in my car, or the shack, and don't see why I must get taxed to run it.

How is it the government ever got into this business in the first place?

It seems to me that non government companies used to run all the ship to shore traffic, why not location finding systems.

I heard a lot of space stuff got cut, good for them, the Russians or Chinese can launch that stuff much cheaper than nasa can.

GPS was originally built for military purposes.  When civilians first gained access to it, it was deliberately scrambled to reduce resolution to a few hundred yards, supposedly for national security reasons.  You wouldn't want an enemy to use GPS to precisely pinpoint military or civilian targets.  Then sometime in the 1990's they discontinued scrambling the signal, so that civilian users were at last able to use it at its full resolution just like the military and government agencies.  We are incidental users of the system, and the gov't said at the time they reserved the right to resume scrambling at any moment without notice.

I'm surprised they didn't resume it after 11SE01, considering all the paranoia, both justified and exaggerated, that has existed ever since, related to "nine-eleven".

I was told that some of the radiolocation digital data beacons that populated the upper half of 160m throughout the late 1980's and 1990's were actually transmitting de-scrambling keys that allowed users to get full resolution with GPS.

One of the benefits of the present-day GPS system is that the 160m beacons are gone.  There are only one or two still transmitting down below, between the expanded broadcast band and ham band. Radiolocation is still listed as the "primary" user of 1900-2000 while amateurs are only allowed to share the band as "secondary" users, much as we were "secondary" to LORAN-A.  Before the advent of GPS, some of the radiolocation interests such as DECCA once envisioned populating the entire segment and pushing amateurs entirely off that part of the band.  In fact, DECCA's comments to the FCC right after LORAN was removed, opposed sharing 1900-2000 with amateurs in the first place, claiming that 1800-1900 was sufficient for our use.

Since the gov't will maintain the GPS system for their own military and civilian purposes regardless, I am glad the public is allowed to take advantage of it. At least, it gives us some small return on our tax investment.

Kind of like the interstate highway system.  One of its primary purposes when first conceived was to enable rapid civilian evacuation and military deployment.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/ndhs.htm

[N0WEK]

All the talk of Loran C being the backup for GPS may apply to quite a few boat operators with older equipment but it'd do nothing for the aircraft fleet which has pretty completely abandoned Loran. We haven't used it for at least 15 years and now, with WAAS equipped GPS, we've got near ILS approaches at more airports.

If the GPS system went down we'd have to revert to the VOR/ILS system, which still works fine. There is no way we could use Loran for a backup, since almost no one has the equipment in the aircraft anymore. It'd take months or years to retrofit Loran to our aircraft and we still wouldn't have all the instrument approaches, just enroute navigation. Some aircraft still have Loran installed, but they are almost all infrequently flown private aircraft, nobody in the commercial world still uses it or has the equipment installed in the limited panel space.

Unless people are willing to equip the entire fleet with equipment nobody will use, just in case, we are not going back. We still all have the VOR/ILS equipment installed and usable and we're still flight checked on it.

[Opcom]

I don't want big government running stuff like loran.
A big tax waste.
Same with GPS, why does the government have to do it, why not let XM run it and charge the people who need to use it?
I don't have it in my car, or the shack, and don't see why I must get taxed to run it.

How is it the government ever got into this business in the first place?

It seems to me that non government companies used to run all the ship to shore traffic, why not location finding systems.

I heard a lot of space stuff got cut, good for them, the Russians or Chinese can launch that stuff much cheaper than nasa can.

Brett
 

GPS is a matter of national security and shouldn't be trusted to a private contractor any more than the army should hire mercenaries and use convicts. Money well spent. You wouldn't want to weaken national security, right?

[Ed/KB1HYS]

I don't want big government running stuff like loran.
A big tax waste.
Same with GPS, why does the government have to do it, why not let XM run it and charge the people who need to use it?
I don't have it in my car, or the shack, and don't see why I must get taxed to run it.

How is it the government ever got into this business in the first place?

It seems to me that non government companies used to run all the ship to shore traffic, why not location finding systems.

I heard a lot of space stuff got cut, good for them, the Russians or Chinese can launch that stuff much cheaper than nasa can.

Brett

Exploration is one of the more Noble things the government does (did).  There are many many things developed for the space program that morph into products for the people.

I would rather they cut the billions in foreign aid that goes to buy the loyalty of worthless two-bit banana republics.  Odd how American programs get cut under the latest Pay as you go joke budget, but the foreign "aid" does not. 

[WU2D]

You scooped me.  I was going to reveal all on 4/1/10.

I've got my "/LBag" all packed with connectors, spare LorC receiptors, everything.

..and I was the first to sign up for the privatized  heavy launcher/ moon exploration thingy too.  Started making up a "/BSbag" for that duty.  We're supposed to get free surplus equipment if we can ship it.  Anyone have a float and tractor for some Nike booster transport?

Yeah Rick,

It sounds like a hoax to me as well.

Mike WU2D

[WA1GFZ]

Brett
Look up JDAM and you will know why the government needs to run a GPS system.

[N2DTS]

I am not going to respond to any of this, or the thread will be erased like the last few.
I think I will crawl back into my hole where i came from and leave you guys to it...

Brett