Competition for the Flex?

[w3bv]

New Swiss ADAT-200

[WA3VJB]

It's interesting but nothing jumps out at me compared to the field experience accumulated the past few years on AM with the Flex series radios. So I don't see any strong rival, yet.

Glad you posted the article Alan.

Looks like the author of the review considered how the rig might perform on AM, but I don't see any actual tests or impressions from operating the mode.  

Instead, the references may have simply been pulled from the Operator's manual and/or spec sheet.

Transmit audio:

If the equalizer is set up flat, the transmitter's AF response curves are smooth
over the entire range. The lower and upper cutoff frequencies of the transmit
baseband can also be adjusted as required. Fig. 12 shows the narrowest .(300
Hz - 2.4 kHz) and widest (200 Hz - 3 kHz) transmit bandwidth (TBW) with flat
equalizer settings.

AM Transmit info:


AM Receive info:

AM offers an impressive [selection of] ten bandwidth settings from 3 to 10 kHz, in
addition to a very effective 5 kHz lock when needed. In addition, an automatic
fine-tuning function is provided; this will be an important feature of the future
synchronous demodulator.

[K5UJ]

I bet that's the one I heard about last weekend.  Supposed to run rings around the Flex but costs $4K or maybe more.  I'll take tubes and black wrinkle.

[KF1Z]

Yeah.... looks like a neat $4999.00 radio....
Website says they've sold like 10 of them...

No thanks.... it's not ready to be a fixture in my shack! (the price would have to drop by $4000 first!)
 
 

[WA1GFZ]

Very over priced for a $50 watt rig. My HPSDR with my 300 watt MRI final would give it a good run. The cool thing is that it is self contained so you don't need a computer.

[K9ACT]

Be interesting to know if it can do this trick...

I added a cathode follower circuit to the last IF of my Hamerlund recently and hooked it up to a scope.  I can now make a real PITA of myself by playing audio cop and spoil everyone's fun.

I had it set up on the Noon Time Forum yesterday and had the video camera zoomed into the scope.  Anyone on line could look at the wave form of whoever was transmitting.

It was sort of boring and routine until Masa, AB9MQ showed up with his Flex into an amp.

I have never seen an audio wave form like his.  Taking QSB, IF anomalies and phase of the Moon into consideration,  I conservatively rate his modulation at greater than 150% with no baselining EVER.  There were occasions when I would make a small bet on 200% but with less confidence.

A wannabe competitor that can not do that might as well quit while it's ahead.

js

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Neither Flex or any of the other manufacturers are selling many radios based on the AM specs.

Yaesu and Icom are selling far more radios than Flex. The question should be, when is Flex going to start to compete?

[WA3VJB]

I spent time chatting with the Flex representative that year I went to Dayton with you and John. He thought it was a great idea to specifically market the Flex to the AM Community, after I had told him the enthusiastic response from folks like W9AD, W3DUQ, N3WWL, K3VR and others who own them.

Numerically, no, it won't mean high-volume sales.  But none of the manufacturers are in the best position to forgo any nuggets of sales that are available to them.

But your point taken, and I agree, I have not seen Flex try to tailor any of its advertising to the AM Community.

Neither Flex or any of the other manufacturers are selling many radios based on the AM specs.

[N2DTS]

Reading all the specs, it does not look as good as the flex 5000 except in phaze noise.
The TX and RX bandwidths are very limited, no spectrum display, no sync detector, twice the price of a flex 5000, etc.

A big part of the flex attraction is what you can do with the radio in software, drag and drop filters (not pre set ones), click tune with a mouse, the ability to control the AM modulation however you want, from zero modulation to dsb, the 10 to 20,000 hz audio response, balanced line mic or line level input, audio compander, 10 band EQ on RX and TX, etc...

The flex will get diversity receive, along with a noise null setup like the mfj and timewave gizmo's, and be able to eliminate a lot of noise from modern crap in the hood...

While the hardware could likely be improved some, the overall package is fantastic for AM operation.
The big downside is like any other radio of its type, 25 watts carrier output...

I use the receiver often, dont use the TX side much except as an exciter for the homebrew rigs.
If I had an amp that could run 500 watts of carrier with ease, I would likely use it more...

I figure an amp with a 2000 watt plate dis would do well.
But when 40 meters comes back to life, my wimpy 150 watts carrier from the 813 amp might do just fine.

Brett

[WA1GFZ]

Rice box makers have no interest in AMers because most AMers have no interest in buying over priced over hyped toys.

[N2DTS]

Not so.
Plenty of guys running ft102's, ts440's (worked 3 last saturday), icom 756 pro's.

The pro3 was a sensable radio that worked well on AM, TX and RX, fair fidelity, usefull knobs, auto notch worked very well on AM, nice bandscope, stable power output, good antenna tuner, all band, all mode, a nice all around ham radio for an upconverting design.
AM modulation was fine, no major agc problems like some radios have/had.


If you are trying to sell something, you have to hype it somewhat, you expect something different?

Its a trade off, 90% of hams want a good radio for cw and ssb, even the CW guys could say they have been ignored because they want good close in performance and don't get it with upconverting radios with FM wide filters in the 1st IF.
Contest and DX guys want other features, ssb rag chewers want others, AM guys something else.

Toys are toys, some would think putting a broadcast rig in the garage is a crazy toy, giant towers with beams are toys, sdr's are toys, and so is a dx100.

You wont make many friends dissing other peoples toys....

Brett

[WA1GFZ]

Most AMers buy over hyped toys second hand at a lower price.
because we are for the most part cheap asses

[W2PFY]

I'll take tubes and black wrinkle.

Very Anti Smug

[K5UJ]

I'll take tubes and black wrinkle.

Very Anti Smug

Ya Terry, and don't forget the yellow glowing dial and meter lights!   Jack you'll run everyone off that noon time forum if you get after them about audio.  Only way Flex can compete with the JA rigs is if they make one of those things with a front panel with all the controls as knobs and a frequency display. 

The Icoms are okay for AM as RBs go, but they need help.  Unfortunately everything is hard coded into chips and can't be modified.  This is why the older Yaesu's are more popular--200 w. s.s. PA or 3 6146, and analog circuits.  Some Kenmore's okay too.  The Icom fishfinder by itself isn't much of an attraction.

[N2DTS]

Meters?
Real radios have magic eye tubes, not meters.

Anything after spark gaps is just crap and hype...

Brett

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I spent time chatting with the Flex representative that year I went to Dayton with you and John. He thought it was a great idea to specifically market the Flex to the AM Community, after I had told him the enthusiastic response from folks like W9AD, W3DUQ, N3WWL, K3VR and others who own them.

Numerically, no, it won't mean high-volume sales.  But none of the manufacturers are in the best position to forgo any nuggets of sales that are available to them.

But your point taken, and I agree, I have not seen Flex try to tailor any of its advertising to the AM Community.

I don't see why they would want to. You want to tailor your advertising for the broadest appeal in the ham population. Gives you a bigger bang for the buck.

On the ADAT, selling only 10 pieces and also lining up 20 pieces on a table doesn't really impress me. Doesn't look like there's any reps in the U.S. Probably would have to pay a custom's charge to get it shipped over here.  Love the display  Takes me back to those great LCD equipment displays of the 70's. I don't think Flex has to circle the wagons. Let's see what happens in a year from now.

[w1vtp]

Be interesting to know if it can do this trick...

<snip>
js

If you mean monitor the incoming signal's carrier - no.  The scope mode monitors the detected AF out during receive.  TX is a different matter.  The scope mode monitors the carrier in the TX mode.  The detected AF in the Rx mode is a waste of time.  Wish Flex would give us received carriers on the scope mode

Al

[WA1GFZ]

Flex has cool software, I use it but the hardware is old. They would be smart to offer new boards for the 5000 to bring it up to date. Again an exciter with -50 dB IMD3 into an amp with -30 to -35 dB IMD3 is also a waste.
My biggest issue with SDR is you have to power up the computer to use it.
Most of the time I flip on a couple Racals or Cubics and sit back.
Just a matter of time till we have a complete package with a nice display on the front with a clean output. With knobs.

[N2DTS]

I doubt it!
Nothing has knobs on it anymore but ham radio stuff.
They will go to touch screens and so on, like all the new cell phones, etc.

There has been discussions on the Elecraft reflector about the ability to customize controls on a screen, locate things where you want, add or delete things on the screen, and no moving parts to fail...

To get a really good display of the spectrum, which is a very useful tool, it would be very hard to go back to being blind, you need a screen, a nice hi res 22 inch monitor is stunning with the sdr radios.
Some little crap screen is almost useless, and not having one is unthinkable after using any sdr.

I have no problem at all with the flex 5000 performance, even if its old tech.
Its good enough to be 3rd on the Sherwood list which is not bad from a raw performance standpoint, plus all the fantastic features none of the other radios on the list even have...

Brett


 

[K0ARA]

''Most AMers buy over hyped toys second hand at a lower price.
because we are for the most part cheap asses''

HEY HEY...I resemble that remark

[K9ACT]

Be interesting to know if it can do this trick...

If you mean monitor the incoming signal's carrier - no.  The scope mode monitors the detected AF out during receive.  TX is a different matter.  The scope mode monitors the carrier in the TX mode.  The detected AF in the Rx mode is a waste of time.  Wish Flex would give us received carriers on the scope mode

Al

I mean 150+ % modulation with no baselining and audio as perfect as the person setting it up.

It is also possibly the greatest receiver in the world aside from a $60 Soft Rock running Pwsdr.


js

[WA1GFZ]

HPSDR is my first new rig since the SB303 and SB401 kits in 1974

[KF1Z]

Careful there Jack....

Starting to sound a little smug!

 

[N2DTS]

You can set the flex up to do 150% positive modulation, but like other systems that do that, the neg waveform is not baselined, but is inverted positive.
I don't know what the net result of this is.
With a normal AM detector, you get distortion above about 130% positive modulation, but a sync detector can handle that.
The extra positive bump is another form of distortion, but just how it sounds is unknown to me.
A moderate amount is likely ok, and the signal sounds LOUD....
On the scope, it looks normal but with a lot of positive peaks.

Brett

[K9ACT]

The extra positive bump is another form of distortion, but just how it sounds is unknown to me.
A moderate amount is likely ok, and the signal sounds LOUD....

We have two Flex 5000's checking into the Noon Time Forum just about every day and their audio is as good as it gets and they are LOUD.  W9AD has been there since time Zero and AB9MQ has had his for a few months and the learning curve was interesting.  He has taken the positive mod a bit further than Dave and the scope view is dramatic to us mortals struggling to get 100% modulation.

Aside from that detail, I will never betray my homebrew Class C rigs.

However, I fell in love with the Flex way of receiving as a result of screen shots received from Dave and the time frame was in synch with SoftRocks so I took the penny pinching way.

I will stack my Soft Rock up against any receiver out there.   There is none better, just a lot more expensive.

Jack,  smug as they get.