160 Meters

[K9ACT]

I finally quit making excuses and put up a 160 meter dipole and have been having some fun up/down there.  I am waiting for a roll of coax that I ordered so I can get it up where it belongs.  Using what I have and about 5 splices and couplings, it is only about 10 feet off the ground at the center but is a vast improvement over the 80 meter dipole loaded as a vertical.

To make it interesting though, the vertical is much better on a few stations I have worked including K4KYV who is about 400 miles away.

The vertical also driives my garage door opener nuts and someone suggested a coax fed dipole might solve the problem and this seems to be true.  No problems at all with the door opener using the dipole.

I have been reading this list for a couple of years now and have no recollection of any discussions about 160 meters.  I find this rather surprising as there is almost as much AM activity there as on 80.

I heard an East Coast QSO tonight and recognized one of the voices but they never identified during the time I listened but were pretty much Q5 here in the MidWest.

Much to my surprise, there is a great deal of Slop Bucket activity on 160 making it harder to find a slot than 40 meters which sort of turned me off after the original rush to 40.

There is something to be said about having a "ghetto" to sort of stake out.

Jack

[w3jn]

  A forum search using the terms "160 meters" yields ten pages of results.  There have been plenty of discussions about 160, particularly regarding antennas.

[kb3ouk]

You probably heard W8VYZ and someone else who's call I forget, they were on 1885 at about 8-9 pm.
Shelby KB3OUK

[W3RSW]

There is something to be said about having a "ghetto" to sort of stake out.

Yes Jack.  I think 1885 is pretty much the 'calling' freq.  That's where I mostly used to hang out.  Also 1915 or so with WB8SKV.
 
I think he got a very polite on-air comment from Riley that his signal strength exceeded earthly standards 

1915 seemed to be the purvue of the 'Hokie' crowd. k4vvv comes to mind.

Here's a typical bunch on 1885 in my log  from New Years eve. the several hours before midnight local time, 12/31/00, the turn of the century. I was running the 813 'shoebox' rig modulated by a pair of 811a's.

W9GT, kg2bk, k2jvm, wd8bil, wa1oxt,kz3ab, ww3kp, w2zm, km4xg, k4vvv, & last but not least wb8skv.

We used to have a lot of fun.  160's Back!

[Ed/KB1HYS]

1.945  had a lot of AM activity on it as well.  IIRC the Greyhair net? Don't recall. 
160 is a very interesting band and with the Sunspots at an all time low I think it's going get even better.

[K5UJ]

Jack there are guys over in Mich. Ohio and Indiana on 1880 a lot in the evenings, and I think John K9KEU gets on there from Wisc.  A lot of Wisconsin guys on 1985 evenings, or used to be.  You and I could probably work each other groundwave.

What do you need for an antenna?  I got some stuff here....wire, dogbones....things left over from last summer's antenna building marathon here.  I have a few hundred feed of no. 14 bare hard drawn 7 strand.

Rob

[K9ACT]

Jack there are guys over in Mich. Ohio and Indiana on 1880 a lot in the evenings, and I think John K9KEU gets on there from Wisc. 

Funny you should mention John.  I just spent the past hour talking with him.  In fact, he is still talking with N9MS and I came in for my tea and cookie.

<What do you need for an antenna? 

A skyhook to pull the center up.  The new 160 dipole makes the 80 meter look like VHF by comparison.

>I got some stuff here....wire, dogbones....things left over from last summer's antenna building marathon here.  I have a few hundred feed of no. 14 bare hard drawn 7 strand.

I am pretty much of a skin flint and use fence wire but thanks for the offer.  The job is done and I am just waiting for the coax to get up higher.

js

[K5UJ]

need a skyhook hmmm I have a marine pulley and some dacron left over from the summer ant. work but I don't know off hand how much I have, it is the 3/16 inch stuff 700 lb breaking limit, so I could come over with that and help get the feed point over a tree or something but probably not until next weekend because it's getting so dark now right at 5 p.m.  yeah i heard k9keu bombing in here last night on 1880 thought about joining the qso but had to go to bed to get up early for work today.  work is the curse of the hamming class 

[WA1GFZ]

160 is broken maybe 3 weeks out of the year when the summer static monster stops by. #14 a bit light for a long antenna. I like #10 or #8 solid.

[K5UJ]

160 is broken maybe 3 weeks out of the year when the summer static monster stops by. #14 a bit light for a long antenna. I like #10 or #8 solid.

yeah i was thinking if it is supported in the center and the wire is the bare hard drawn it might be okay but maybe it should be the steel copper clad stuff.

[W3SLK]

Frank said:

#14 a bit light for a long antenna. I like #10 or #8 solid.

I've used #14 on the cloud burner for quite a long time until we had a nasty windstorm and a section of the chicken coop lifted up and broke it. I spliced it back together and it worked for another 2 more years until I moved.

[K9ACT]

I was hoping to get some reaction to my use of fence wire for antennae.

My 80 meter dipole has been up for 5 years and the only thing that ever breaks is the line that holds it up.  These break often enough for ample opportunities to inspect the wire and it looks pretty much like it did when I put it up.

I have electric fences that have been up for 10 years and they don't look much different.  The zinc plating oxidizes to a bit darker gray but there is no sign of rust anywhere.

At about $30 for a quarter mile, I have a hard time rationalizing buying copper wire.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone has experience using fence wire for radials.  The chemical activity would be much more robust in the earth but "How much more?" is the question.  Antennae are a lot easier to replace than radials so even if they would be good for ten years, one might not wish to make the compromise if they are young enough to care about 10 years.  On the other hand, young people don't often live in the same place for more than 10 years anyway.

Thoughts?

js

[W9GT]

Hi Jack,

Yes, lots of folks use electric fence wire for radials.  It works fine, but yes it deteriorates from contact with the soil after a few years.  Probably depends a lot on how much acid or akaline content in the soil.  Also dependent on whether there is electrolysis going on and at what rate.  I have a few radials that have lasted a long time...others that have corroded and rusted away.  I have used copper wire, both insulated and bare and it seems to last forever.

Fence wire varies a lot in quality as well.  The new cheap stuff (made in China) has a much thinner galvanizing on it and it seems to deteriorate more quickly.  The stuff you are talking about that is a little more expensive, might not even be commonly available anymore.  Copperweld works good, but maybe not easy to find.  It used to be commonly found when old open-wire telephone and telegraph lines were replaced or taken down, but not much of that anymore.  Also mig-weldiing wire (the copper coated stuff) works good for antennas and radials and it is pretty cheap.  The gauge is only about 18-20 at the most, so it is pretty light for any really big antennas, but OK for radials.  I guess you could double up on it and twist some strands together, but maybe not worth messing with.  Not that long ago....copper wire was pretty cheap, but unfortunately, it went thru the roof a few years back.  Prices have come down a little, but still expensive.

73,  Jack, W9GT

[K5UJ]

Jack,

I guess I didn't comment because I wasn't sure what you were using when you wrote "fence wire."  I mean, barb wire? surely not!   

I've heard of hams using electric fence wire but I think they're redoing radials after a few years or even months depending on the soil.  My advice has always been if you plan on staying put for 10 years or longer, may as well do it right even if it costs.  It's another one of those pay up front and save in the long run type things.   On the other hand if a ham knows he is moving in a few years then put down any junk wire there is.

The other thing is you have to consider the resistance of steel wire that's used for fences.  That wire works for a fence probably because for a fence it has static electricity spark level voltage on it--h.v. low current to zap a cow hide and it's okay for that but the resistance of steel like that for RF may be a problem.   Of course AM bc stations use big galv. steel towers but there the mass and surface area is much more than a skinny wire.   Of course if you have the wire you may as well verify as YMMV.

Oh I see Jack GT covered this much better -- I think Wireman has copperweld wire.  don't know about price.  Whatever you do, get ur ant. up high, especially for 160.   100 feet or more.  When I was putting down my radials I got no.14 solid insulated in rolls 500 feet from home depot for around $15/roll.   Solid is better for radials--dosn't want to curl up as much.  i used no. 14 so it wouldn't break accidentally as much.  a couple years ago the price had zoomed up to around $40/roll.  yikes.   I think now it is down to around $21 $22 / roll.

say hi to the NoonTime Forum for me.

Rob
K5UJ 

[WD8BIL]

Rob, I've used (an still am using) 17ga electric fence wire for years. Works fine. The difference 'tween it and copper ain't worth the worry.(some will argue but so what. I know how well it works.)

 And at $14 per half mile it's great for those on a budget!!

[K5UJ]

Rob, I've used (an still am using) 17ga electric fence wire for years. Works fine. The difference 'tween it and copper ain't worth the worry.(some will argue but so what. I know how well it works.)

 And at $14 per half mile it's great for those on a budget!!

Okay Budley I'll take ur word for it--nothing speaks like experience!

73
Rob

[K9ACT]

If he is using fence wire then that means he must have a fence.

Why not just use the fence itself for the antenna or ground radial system

It would be fun to do a simulation on an insulated fence wire a few feet off the ground but remembering to go out and disconnect the charger every time it is used could be a pain.  Destroying the receiver with the fencer or the fencer with the transmitter would be a given.

On the other hand, I had a similar inspiration when laying down radials.  I have several half acre pastures in line with the radials and it seemed totally reasonable just to terminate some of them by wrapping the ends around the lowest wire.  These are stock fences attached to T-Posts so everything is more or less grounded.

I have no idea if this is a good idea or not but it made sense to me.

js

 

[KL7OF]

I have tried the copper coated Mig welding wire (.035 dia) and find that the copper coating is very thin and the wire starts to rust in a few weeks time when exposed to the weather.

[k4kyv]

The same thing is true with copper-clad electric fence wire.  Use real Copperweld.  A good source for copperweld is The Wireman.

[K9ACT]

The same thing is true with copper-clad electric fence wire.  Use real Copperweld.  A good source for copperweld is The Wireman.

Did you really mean "copper-clad electric fence wire"?

I have never seen that but the galvanized (zinc clad) seems to last for years in the air.

js

[WA1GFZ]

I bought a 40 pound spool of #8 at Deerfield for $75. I should be good for life.

[k4kyv]

The same thing is true with copper-clad electric fence wire.  Use real Copperweld.  A good source for copperweld is The Wireman.

Did you really mean "copper-clad electric fence wire"?

I have never seen that but the galvanized (zinc clad) seems to last for years in the air.

It used to be a common item, but maybe they don't sell much of it since the price of copper went up.  However, there is so little copper on it that it shouldn't be any more expensive than galvanised.  It rusts through in no time.  You can scrape away the thin copper coating with a blunt pocket knife. Real copperweld has a thick copper jacket, about 20% of the total diameter of the wire.

[WD8BIL]

If he is using fence wire then that means he must have a fence.

Actually, the chain link fence IS the radial system for the 160M inverted L.

And for what it's worth, if I remember right, Zinc is right next to Copper on the periodic table.  Cu 29..... Zn 30!

Oh.... and the 75M diplolio at the cabin is fence wire and has been up for 12 years now.

[flintstone mop]

I'm a gettin tired of replacing my flakey 450 ladder line and going with the real 600 ohm stuff. It's getting water logged or the high RF current that's killing it. #14 ? strands. Dunno, its gotta go.

My Cushcraft MA160 is holding court and making nice sig reports.
Fred

[K9ACT]

I'm a gettin tired of replacing my flakey 450 ladder line and going with the real 600 ohm stuff. It's getting water logged or the high RF current that's killing it. #14 ? strands. Dunno, its gotta go.

What is happening to it?  What are the symptoms?

Mine seems as good as new after 2 years running 400W carrier every day.

Not sure what the gauge is but it is single strand and the less expensive flavor.

js