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Author Topic: One - Do- Tree... Tests with the 2x2x2 40M Yagi stack  (Read 202765 times)
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #250 on: October 03, 2009, 03:52:32 PM »

Rain just letting up so ready to pull up the driven element. Sure I could do diversity. It would be cool to find the interface between receivers to make diversity control the two AGC loops. Cubics have stereo outputs so could use the tiny brain....ah rain stoped
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« Reply #251 on: October 03, 2009, 08:08:11 PM »

Gosh Steve.....we wuz havin' a good time until.........................I guess we landed on "their" frequency.    Great fun workin' the Europeans tonite anyway!

73,  Jack, W9GT
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #252 on: October 03, 2009, 08:22:18 PM »

Jack You were pretty strong here tonight. A  line of thunder riding over us tonight so no radio for now.
The loops seem quiet compared to last night and a dipole driven element. need to trim about a foot off the driven element. It resonates at 7050 but works on 7.15.
I'll run it like this for now and maybe put up a reference dipole Sunday. I have a tall tree about 60 feet behind the reflector. Humble 100 watts will get old fast.
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« Reply #253 on: October 03, 2009, 10:28:32 PM »

You were really getting around tonight, Jack!  Heard ya holding court and then calling DX stations. Not bad.

I just got on 40 and had a good pileup going, but then the T-storms came. The rain static (from the pouring rain) wiped out the Yagis with +50 over noise. I could still hear on the bevs, but even they were impaired. Now I hear thunder.  If it stops, I'll be back on. Corndix were great tonight with reasonable static and good prop. Not sure why the static crashes aren't worse, but won't complain..

Was hoping to give Johnny / SV0/W3JN a call tonight. He will definately be heard. Maybe after 11PM.


Frank, better model that reference dipole. At 60' behind the reflector it will produce a small f-b into Eur, unless you put it at right angles. But then it will have a big null off the side instead. See what it looks like first.

T
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« Reply #254 on: October 03, 2009, 10:36:06 PM »

I'm running a simulation of a 3 element loop with the reflector behind the tower 60 feet away. Impressive FB numbers coming up. Never got back down to the shack. Steady stream of storms here.
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« Reply #255 on: October 04, 2009, 12:04:17 AM »

Didnt hear you on tonite, Tom, but I did hear the HUZman holding court on 3770 working the pileup in your honor.
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« Reply #256 on: October 04, 2009, 03:20:02 AM »

Didnt hear you on tonite, Tom, but I did hear the HUZman holding court on 3770 working the pileup in your honor.

I had T-storms come thru until about 12 midnight. Got on 40M afterwards for an hour and paused for you a few times. No JN.... Wink


40M dropped out like a rock - down 30 db in minutes.  I moved to 75M from about 1AM to 3:30 AM local. Worked a pileup calling for QRP <10w for the duration. Lots of fun to give the PW guys a thrill.  No JN on 75M either... Wink   We'll try again.  It wud be nice to do it with your spy special b4 the package arrives wid the big guns.

T
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« Reply #257 on: October 04, 2009, 03:21:37 AM »

You must have had your EU ears on. I called you several times on 40 and 80.
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« Reply #258 on: October 04, 2009, 09:17:41 AM »

You were really getting around tonight, Jack!  Heard ya holding court and then calling DX stations. Not bad.

I just got on 40 and had a good pileup going, but then the T-storms came. The rain static (from the pouring rain) wiped out the Yagis with +50 over noise. I could still hear on the bevs, but even they were impaired. Now I hear thunder.  If it stops, I'll be back on. Corndix were great tonight with reasonable static and good prop. Not sure why the static crashes aren't worse, but won't complain..

Was hoping to give Johnny / SV0/W3JN a call tonight. He will definately be heard. Maybe after 11PM.


Frank, better model that reference dipole. At 60' behind the reflector it will produce a small f-b into Eur, unless you put it at right angles. But then it will have a big null off the side instead. See what it looks like first.

T


Yeah...HUZ and I were having a lot of fun, but encountered a "reserved" frequency situation and it kinda disrupted the flow.  Noise level was still high here, so it was a challenge to hear the weak ones.  Ian, GI3DZE had a truly outstanding signal.  up to 30-35 over 9 here.  Lots of good sigs last night.   Also South Americans were rolling in.

73,  Jack, W9GT
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« Reply #259 on: October 04, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »

Interesting on the "reserved" freq.  Actually, as crowded as 40M can be, I'm surprised we don't have more scuffles over moving in too close. I notice Steve is able to pick a freq and start working 40M without complaints 95% of the time. Over maybe 20 tries to occupy a frequency, I've had only one guy say there was a net on freq where locals were too PW to hear. So all in all, it's been pretty good.   I even axed if the freq was in use last night and a very faint local W1 came back and said he was using it for a contest but I could have it now.  Good relations.   BTW, I usually axe at least three times and switch antenna directions each time.

Yeah, Steve,  as the winter comes on it will be more difficult to hear each other. I can barely hear GFZ most of the time now. So we will need a signaling system as I mentioned in email to alert when we want to break in. The f-b, Euros and skip conspire to hear dick off the back.

I'm stilll recovering after holding court til 3:30AM last night on 75M. That's the latest I've been on in years and heard the sunrise peaks through most of Europe. The Germans were on there a good hour into their sunrise and still very strong.  

Also worked Jordan, Quatar, Israel and Saudi Arabia - no Iraq.  It was almost a middle east clean sweep.  Haven't spoken with anyone in Iran yet.


T
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« Reply #260 on: October 04, 2009, 01:46:50 PM »

Forty meters was good all along yesterday. I heard eastern European signals as early as 3PM local. The VKs were booming about an hour later with VK3EW peaking out at about 20-over in the late afternoon. Static was worse earlier in the evening and then quieted down. By European sunrise, the band was almost dead quiet. Cyprus came through quite loud as you can hear in the attached file. The guy was running a home-brew DSP based rig.

Eighty meters was pretty hot too. You can hear how loud the EU AM stations were in my other post. A few loud static crashes in there but not enough to cause any problems. I even worked a German mobile station later and a station in Crete running low power was 59+10! I also had a nice half hour chat with a German station that also runs 10 meter AM.

I primed the EU AM stations to get on 40 meters too. It should be even easier to work them on that band. I spoke with a GI station a few days ago and he's working on an AM rig to put on 40 meters too.

This winter is going to be fun.

* 5b440ct090249z7164.mp3 (821.37 KB - downloaded 253 times.)
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #261 on: October 04, 2009, 05:35:25 PM »

Loops almost dialed in. Ends up at least 25 feet up from about 15. Just need to trim a little off the reflector. I trimmed both elements and had the most effect shifting frequency changing the reflector. I'm at 7.05 right now and antenna takes power well up to about 7.2. Still a good match at 6.9 MHz. I suspect the tower and guy wires may be effecting the resonant frequency a bit. Once I have it where I want I will try stub switching.
I heard VKs around 4:00 but they were weak. EA7 was working them.  hope to get on after 8:00 and see what happens.
What a beautiful day in CT.
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« Reply #262 on: October 04, 2009, 05:42:52 PM »

Frank,

Now use some reference antenna to A/B test the f-b up and down the band. You want to see max f-b around 7150. Use the W4's in NC/TN, etc. Trim that reflector for max f-b regardless of swr. THEN adjust swr by adjusting the driven el and the matching scheme. 


Jack/GT - I just did a quick sweep of the 40M band and heard you working an Italian with your NEW 2el loops. You were the loudest I've ever heard you at 59 +60. That's Radio Moscow level set on a good night using the stack!   Nobody hits +60 except maybe Huz and and a few others on a STRONG high angle night. Time will tell, but sounds like it's really working.

How high are the loops, config and boom length again?


Hope to get on later tonight, maybe after 8PM too, and work some. Look me up, guys.

T
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« Reply #263 on: October 04, 2009, 05:49:39 PM »

Yup Jack, I would like to know what you did.
Tom,
I didn't put up a reference I thought it better to concentrate on getting the ends higher so shot some lines over trees to hold up the ends. I figure I can use the 80 meter dipole in the woods as a reference for now. Simulation showed it screwing the pattern as you thought.
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« Reply #264 on: October 04, 2009, 09:37:55 PM »

Well, that was fun. I found the TR7A works better in pass band tuning mode. seems like I hear a bit better than TX as I look at the QRO chassis and imagine how easy it would be to reassemble it. I figure about 20 hours would get it back on. It needs to get a little cooler out to run that again. Loops seem more quiet compared to the Dipoles and making them 10 feet higher must have helped.
I need to fire up the HPSDR rig next..
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« Reply #265 on: October 04, 2009, 10:03:25 PM »

Well, that was fun. I found the TR7A works better in pass band tuning mode. seems like I hear a bit better than TX as I look at the QRO chassis and imagine how easy it would be to reassemble it. I figure about 20 hours would get it back on. It needs to get a little cooler out to run that again. Loops seem more quiet compared to the Dipoles and making them 10 feet higher must have helped.
I need to fire up the HPSDR rig next..

Good stateside group in there tonight.

Yep, you did surprisingly well tonight on 100w compared to the first time a few days ago.   You worked a few Russians with us and even called CQ and picked a station out for the group.  I think that delta loop driven/ref combo is going to be the best one for you.  Next get up that beverage while you can. You will find it hears better than the deltas. Then add the linear and you're smokin'.

I think we stunned that UK station - after he gave my signal report I axed him if he was using an analog S-meter or one of those homo-type LED S-meters. There was a long pause and then said in British accent, "Ahhhh, could you repeat that please?"   Grin

It was QRP Night for us. We called for and worked maybe 85% of Euro/Russian stations that were 10 watts or less. There were plenty of them too - enuff for many hours.  

Working Bahrain for the first time on the new 40M was one highlight of the night for me. Still looking for a middle east clean sweep.

Jack/GT was in earlier and has definately improved his TX and RX with the new diamond loops.

The HUZ was hearing better than ever tonight. It's gonna be a real challenge for you to catch up to him, Francis.

T
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« Reply #266 on: October 04, 2009, 10:58:40 PM »

Lots of fun tonight and many funny moments. One guy asked if he could have my call. I said yes, but only if he gave it back. I heard someone laughing in the distance when a belch was let loose on the frequency later. Then we yukked it up about the QRP and QRPp stations, disconnecting antennas, QRT stations, etc. The DX crowd probably thought we were drinking.

The band was VERY quiet tonight. I'd say it was the least QRN I've heard since March. There was some early on when Jack and I were working the VKs on the long path, but later there was none! The only station I struggled to hear was A92GR. His signal got stronger as we spoke and by the end he was a nice Q5. We must have worked 10-15 QRP stations (10 watts or less). The one guy was only running 6 Watts. Several had homebrew rigs. Cool. Other than working Bahrain, working 9K2MU on 10 watts was the highlight of the night.

This winter is going to be very interesting.
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« Reply #267 on: October 05, 2009, 09:01:52 AM »

Frank,

Now use some reference antenna to A/B test the f-b up and down the band. You want to see max f-b around 7150. Use the W4's in NC/TN, etc. Trim that reflector for max f-b regardless of swr. THEN adjust swr by adjusting the driven el and the matching scheme.  


Jack/GT - I just did a quick sweep of the 40M band and heard you working an Italian with your NEW 2el loops. You were the loudest I've ever heard you at 59 +60. That's Radio Moscow level set on a good night using the stack!   Nobody hits +60 except maybe Huz and and a few others on a STRONG high angle night. Time will tell, but sounds like it's really working.

How high are the loops, config and boom length again?


Hope to get on later tonight, maybe after 8PM too, and work some. Look me up, guys.

T

Tom, Steve, Frank....

Yes, great fun last night.  I agree that the loops are working, but I think they will be much better when I get them adjusted and optimally aligned with each other.  I was under the wx with a cold this weekend and the rainy cool wx wasn't conducive to doing much ant work Sat.  I got outside Sun afternoon and hurridly hoisted up a second loop that is approx. 5% smaller than the driven element. It is presently working as a director, although I can change things around and move the driven element to the other side, so the second element will be a reflector.  The top of the loops are at about 75-80 feet.  They are diamond-shaped and I am feeding the lower corner of the driven element thru a matching section of RG-11U.  The top corners are presently only about 6 ft. apart and the bottom corners are stretched out to about 25 ft. apart.  The orientation is such that they are pointing (at right angles to)approx. 60 deg. E of N.  My tower is 86 ft in total hgt including a 4" mast at the top and the tower itself is quite large in cross section (38").  I'm sure the tower has some effect on the loops, but maybe not in a negative way.  There are lots of old radials in the ground radiating out from the tower base in all directions.

I don't have a modeling program...so if it would be possible, maybe one of you guys could put it into your program and see what it looks like.  I plan to eventually install a 20 ft. boom at the top and uniformly space the loops from top to bottom.  I will change directivity by switching an additional stub in and out to change from director to reflector.  Perhaps, varying stub length and/or feeding at different phase would allow moving directional pattern around the azimuth to some measure??

Anyway guys...sure enjoyed the party.  I hope to throw about 300 ft or so of wire out through the woods for a beverage...should help things on the receive side.  I may need to build an additional outboard preamp.The noise level is very high and it is a challenge to hear those QRP stations.  I did hear the DL that was running 10 watts and also 9K2MU when he was at the 10 watt level.

Thanks Tom...for the Radio Moscow report!! HI Hi FB OM.  I'm not running excessive power...just legal limit with a pair of 3-500Zs in one of my home brew amps.  I call it an SB-220 on steroids.  It has a very husky power supply with 3-4 KV using an old BC xmtr plate iron.  The trusty IC-765 has always been good on the rcv side and has pretty good audio on xmit with compression cranked in in the 'DX mode".  

It is fun to watch the totals on QRZ while I'm on 40 and watch the total views go up by the minute.  Obviously, I'm being heard.  

73,  Jack, W9GT

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« Reply #268 on: October 05, 2009, 09:47:06 AM »

Jack,
I'm finding the element lengths need to be shorter than simulation. I found the same thing when I had a quad up years ago. I suspect due to the tower. Director seems similar results as a reflector in simulation. I'm considering swapping pattern by tuning the reflector to a director. I would think you would get higher average height if you changed to a triangle. I hung a vertical rope off the apex to support the coax to keep it from drooping.
At 80 feet that must really play. I noticed performance shift raising the bottoms yesterday. My triangle loops are about 30 feet tall so bottom is 25 to 30 feet above ground. I didn't need RG11 to get a good match at 20 feet spacing. Right now I'm under 2:1 VSWR 6.9 to 7.2 MHz. Elements are 147.5 for reflector and about 135 for driven element. I know the reflector is long because I cut two feet off the driven and CF didn't shift much. I got a good shift cutting 2 1/2 feet off the reflector and need to do it again to dial it in. May need to put a couple feet back on the driven. Once I dial it in I will replace the JS wire with some fresh #10. 
Yes, I also need help in the RX department but loops are quieter than dipoles.
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« Reply #269 on: October 05, 2009, 11:03:27 AM »

Frank,

I wud stick with reflectors for loops. The director does not work as well by a long shot when modeled. It's OK on Yagis, but not for loops.  Use HUZ's relative stub dimensions and you will be in the ballpark.

Here, I use an 11uh large coil across the coaxial stub that I can precisely tap. Once I set the f-b in one direction, it was the same f-b in the other direction using relays to transfer the loops the other way.  I see 20-30db f-b in either direction. (These are the 75M loops, of course)

I don't think the tower has much effect on the loops. At least from modeling memory it was a essentially invisible unless you have guy wires that are close to resonace. The tower itself shud have no effect.  Just tune that ref for max f-b, no matter what it requires, and you'll be fine.  The acid test is switching it on W4's (or Euros) off the back and seeing 20db+ f-b. Everything else is guesswork.  Remember that the swr tuning comes last - after the f-b has been set. The matching will have little to no effect on f-b.

Jack, you were doing well to hear Kuwait when Murtada was running 10w. I think the band has been starting out low angle, later moving up to higher angles by 8pm, and then dropping down very low again later in the night. It seems to be going thru a transistion now - maybe wintertime corndix are coming in, I dunno.  It constantly changes character, which keeps things interesting... Grin

T
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« Reply #270 on: October 05, 2009, 11:56:00 AM »

So you have both loops tuned as driven elements and then add coax plus some L to make them reflectors. Question. Why did you need to use the inductor. Was it just easier to dial in than snippling coax?

I don't know of any guy lengths that are close to ham bands. Tower is long for 40 7 sections with the mast + antenna.   
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« Reply #271 on: October 05, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »

My tower guys are broken into non-resonant lengths, however one of the middle guys actually passes thru the plane of one loop.  Frank, the problem for me in going to triangles is real estate.  I can't tie the ends far enough out for the angles.

73,  Jack, W9GT
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« Reply #272 on: October 05, 2009, 12:15:03 PM »

Jack, I know the problem. The corner of one of my loops is in the leaves of one tree and just fits. I also ran two ropes between loop corners to hold the spacing constant. I'm close to a guy wire at the bottom. I could see how your configuration would put a guy through the loop.
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« Reply #273 on: October 05, 2009, 12:31:46 PM »

Even if a guy wire is 40' away, if it is near to the length of a reflector, director or driven element, (in length) it will cause a "divet" or worse in the pattern.
It's more a matter of length, not proximity  on 40M in the real tower whirl. Its effect will change as it is put square or at right angles, of course.


One thing to be aware of is the length of a guy wire is actually effectively slightly LONGER due to the insulator end capacitance. (Johnny ball insulators) Chuck once measured this capacitance and adjusted the lengths as shown on the ARRL table. I did the same here and found it required a foot or two shortening, depending on freq,  IIRC.

Anyway... Jack, I use two identical loops spaced 40' apart. (for 75M) Each has a coaxial balun at the feedpoint and a 70' RG-11/U coax run to the tower. I feed one and the other gets an inductor across it to tune as a reflector. The relay then swaps/switches the connections to make it change directions.  I cuda used an open or shorted coax stub instead of the coil, but  wanted to be able to use a test beacon and climb up there to adjust the f-b manually with precision.

T
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« Reply #274 on: October 05, 2009, 02:23:45 PM »

Even if a guy wire is 40' away, if it is near to the length of a reflector, director or driven element, (in length) it will cause a "divet" or worse in the pattern.
It's more a matter of length, not proximity  on 40M in the real tower whirl. Its effect will change as it is put square or at right angles, of course.


One thing to be aware of is the length of a guy wire is actually effectively slightly LONGER due to the insulator end capacitance. (Johnny ball insulators) Chuck once measured this capacitance and adjusted the lengths as shown on the ARRL table. I did the same here and found it required a foot or two shortening, depending on freq,  IIRC.

Anyway... Jack, I use two identical loops spaced 40' apart. (for 75M) Each has a coaxial balun at the feedpoint and a 70' RG-11/U coax run to the tower. I feed one and the other gets an inductor across it to tune as a reflector. The relay then swaps/switches the connections to make it change directions.  I cuda used an open or shorted coax stub instead of the coil, but  wanted to be able to use a test beacon and climb up there to adjust the f-b manually with precision.

T

Couple of questions Tom....do you use 1:1 or 4:1 baluns (or something else)?  is the coil at the end of the RG-11 section?  Do you cut the RG-11 for 1/4 wave at operating freq (considering vel factor)?  I would guess, as a matter of scale, then my proposed 20' spacing would be fine for 40M.  

My tower guys were cut with vel factor of galv. guy line and addtl cap on ends considered, however, there are some series effects due to the cap across the insulators and between the sections.  Phillystran would be the best solution, but it is expensive for the size I need (equiv of 5/16" EHS) 11,000lbs.

73,  Jack, W9GT
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