Made in USA

[WA1GFZ]

Freedom of Speech can get you jailed for a hate crime now

[Bill, KD0HG]

I believe that the ability to do heavy manufacturing (autos, aircraft, ship building, appliances, etc) is vital to the national interest of the USA.

If there's truth to that, then any constructive ideas to support these homegrown industries would be welcome, if one doesn't philosophically agree with the Clunker cars program.

Any pragmatic suggestions out there other than dissing the Clunker program?

If these industries aren't vital to the security of the USA, well, then, never mind..We can always buy everything from Communist China.

[Art]

I agree Bill. We should build our ground transportation around CNG as they have done in Utah. The transition to CNG both for new and converting existing vehicles would be multiple heavy industries. Build nukes (ya I know NIMBY) in the desert near the solar panels and wind turbines. Build the distributed sources grid. Drill more oil and trade it for appliances if they can be made better in a country with a lesser standard of living. My point is it may not be specifically ships, planes, and appliances but heavy industry will be required if we become the energy supplier to the world.
If we do decide to build appliances competing with the lowest common denominator should NOT be the goal. Build the best and charge accordingly.

0ba

[ka3zlr]

It's a little late for Nationalism, the program is geared for Global Marketing now, these are not Protectionist Times.

The Clucker Program is functioning FB, as it was designed, to pull in more dummies, and spend money...like they're really going to kick start something here, that's the truth.....anybody remember Wool Pulls...

As far as anything Pragmatic...sure I can tell you right where to start with the FED..start printing your own money that belongs to this country...The FED is Not an Entity of the federal Gov, it is Contracted to, I believe there is a book written about a fellow who pulled the same thing on France and was given the Boot.

Security an Industry are two different Animals, what is perceived to be security when Business is Functioning by Regulated Design is what has changed There was a Nation wide call for deregulation and there you have it..and now we are living in it...you have to remember that..First.


73
Jack.

 

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Any pragmatic suggestions out there other than dissing the Clunker program?

Yea, cut taxes on businesses, most especially small business.

Cut the red tape and over regulation.

Get the government out of the business world. Most of the corruption comes from the government. Get rid of it and the jobs will follow.

Cut personal income taxes so people have money to invest in USA companies, or better yet start one. Even better, get rid of the icon of government corruption and over regulation – the current tax laws. Replace them with a flat tax or a national sales tax.

Let the USA car companies compete. If they fail, let them fail. Another better company will rise in their place.

Develop an actual energy strategy for the next 20-50 years. Stop with the slogans and pandering to wacked out special interests groups like Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. Ignore the screams of the green weenies, nimby’s and other obstructionists who want to have it all (energy) but do not want to sacrifice anything for it.  In other words, get real. We’ll need to utilize oil and coal for a long time. Get over it and move on. Develop a strategy that will allow us to use these resources for the next 20 years and do it inexpensively. The money saved can then be put into developing alternative resources. Use our own oil, gas and coal and tell the Middle East and other oil rich dictatorships (Venezuela) and unstable countries to go f#$% themselves.

Stop with all the band-aid, feel good measures, cut all the BS rhetoric and get out of the way. The government is too big, too bloated, too inefficient and too corrupt. Taking money of out the economy to put it back into the economy to “stimulate” it is nothing more than an obscene shell game.

[ka3zlr]

Hear..Hear...Bravooo...if they Fail They Fail....the Others have already arrived..

73
Jack.

[WA1GFZ]

great idea HUZ but just add in a way to deal with the poor insurance  company crooks.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Steve: IMO, you're not offering pragmatic suggestions. Piggies aren't about to start flying anytime soon.

Art: I agree with you on almost every point. IMO, the main reason for our (past?) American prosperity has been the availability of cheap, abundant energy since the industrial era began. Wood, then coal, electricity and petroleum.

Abundant energy will be the key to America's future. Without which, we might as well move back into the caves. I have no reasonable guess what our energy future is going to look like decades hence.

There's been a big push for harnessing wind and solar energy, it's a good start but only a piece of the puzzle. Wind and solar are things that there aren't too many serious national objections to. I'm also a believer in natural gas. Coal is abundant and affordable, but has more of an environmental price to my own personal liking. Ethanol made from foodstuffs like corn may also be a mistake...

It is essential that we move on and start using nuclear during the transition period to a new and undefined energy future. We have to.  But there hasn't been a single politician with the cojones to push it, or a final plan to safely store its waste material.

I will guarantee you that a century from now we will be relying on energy sources that we have no idea about in 2009. I'd love to see it.

No one could have comprehended nuclear power or AC electrical distribution systems in 1860, gas was manufactured from coal, petroleum was used for pitching boats, but a century later, they were facts of modern life.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

The easy way out Bill. Just say it can't be done and it never will be. Do you think the idea of breaking away from England seemed pragmatic to very many people when it was first proposed? No, it wasn't. In fact, even when the revolution was happening, there was not a majority of the population in favor of it.

So, ask yourself, has the last X (pick a number) years of saying, oh well, it can't be done because pigs can't fly, improved the situation or has it caused us to arrive at the current (and I assume unacceptable to you) state. To continue doing the same thing and expect a different result is the definition of insanity. Hardly pragmatic, no matter how you look at it.

Steve: IMO, you're not offering pragmatic suggestions. Piggies aren't about to start flying anytime soon.

Art: I agree with you on almost every point. IMO, the main reason for our (past?) American prosperity has been the availability of cheap, abundant energy since the industrial era began. Wood, then coal, electricity and petroleum.

Abundant energy will be the key to America's future. Without which, we might as well move back into the caves. I have no reasonable guess what our energy future is going to look like decades hence.

There's been a big push for harnessing wind and solar energy, it's a good start but only a piece of the puzzle. Wind and solar are things that there aren't too many serious national objections to. I'm also a believer in natural gas. Coal is abundant and affordable, but has more of an environmental price to my own personal liking. Ethanol made from foodstuffs like corn may also be a mistake...

It is essential that we move on and start using nuclear during the transition period to a new and undefined energy future. We have to.  But there hasn't been a single politician with the cojones to push it, or a final plan to safely store its waste material.

I will guarantee you that a century from now we will be relying on energy sources that we have no idea about in 2009. I'd love to see it.

No one could have comprehended nuclear power or AC electrical distribution systems in 1860, gas was manufactured from coal, petroleum was used for pitching boats, but a century later, they were facts of modern life.

[Bill, KD0HG]

The easy way out Bill. Just say it can't be done and it never will be. Do you think the idea of breaking away from England seemed pragmatic to very many people when it was first proposed? No, it wasn't. In fact, even when the revolution was happening, there was not a majority of the population in favor of it.

So, ask yourself, has the last X (pick a number) years of saying, oh well, it can't be done because pigs can't fly, improved the situation or has it caused us to arrive at the current (and I assume unacceptable to you) state. To continue doing the same thing and expect a different result is the definition of insanity. Hardly pragmatic, no matter how you look at it.

Steve, the changes you suggest aren't going to happen because the public doesn't really want, and is not clamoring for those changes.

Sure, the flat tax makes sense, but no one is willing to give up their mortgage tax deduction, or their child care exemption, or their medical deductions.

Why are there even mortgage tax deductions to begin with?
Social engineering through taxation. Home ownership promotes a less revolutionary and a more status-quo society.

Why have deductions for children? Doesn't that only encourage having more offspring? How does that benefit the country?

Think consumerism. Which is what drives our economy. More is better.

The manure would hit the rotary ventilation apparatus if removing the dependent tax deduction was ever seriously discussed.

People WANT government regulations because they feel more secure with them.

And, frankly, as Theodore Roosevelt found, some government regulations are necessary, human nature being what it is.

The public DOESN'T want to make sacrifices, no matter how trivial they might be. Or as a Washington politician once said, "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree." And that public sentiment is exactly why we have the system we do today, and that's why the piggies won't be flying anytime soon.

Finally, the American public does not share the same issues, educational level, or motivations that they did 200+ years ago. God save the Queen.

What we can do is make incremental changes in a many-ways screwed-up system, but you first need to build a public consensus for those changes. Government is NOT going to make changes unless the public demands same, not based on what you or I think.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

The public wasn't clamoring for a cash for clunkers program. Yet it was done. Your logic is failing here. Same goes for converting to CNG. No big public cry for this. Same for:

biodiesel
wind energy
solar energy
nuclear energy.....

Shall I go on? The US public is largely apathetic and won't ever come up with any new ideas. Those come from visionaries and leaders. We have none in our government now, and probably never had but a few. The new ideas come from private industry and entrepreneurs. Getting the government out of their pockets and out of their way will lead use to new and better ideas far more quickly.

You also make quite a few claims about what the public wants or doesn't want that just aren't true. We've never had a real public discussion of the flat tax. So to claim people don't want it is false. They've never been asked. One thing is for sure, if the public thinks it will lead to them paying less taxes, they will be for it. 


The current system is broke. Making incremental changes is akin to shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

[ka3zlr]

Time for a Pole then ....I'm for one Flat Tax...

73
Jack.

[Bill, KD0HG]

The public wasn't clamoring for a cash for clunkers program. Yet it was done. Your logic is failing here. Same goes for converting to CNG. No big public cry for this. Same for:

biodiesel
wind energy
solar energy
nuclear energy.....

Yes they did, Steve, note how last November's election turned out. The recession hit, and there was a huge outcry to "do something". And the above things were pursued.

We're not up to the same level of interest in a tax revolt. There was NO interest in intelligent candidates or ideas like congressman Ron Paul, who advocated a flat tax and a return to the gold standard.

BTW, the only question about biodiesel is whether grease from Chinese or Mexican restaurants is best. My truck and tractor run like a bat out of hell on deep fryer and bacon grease. And the exhaust smell makes you hungry.

The US public is largely apathetic and won't ever come up with any new ideas. Those come from visionaries and leaders. We have none in our government now, and probably never had but a few. The new ideas come from private industry and entrepreneurs. Getting the government out of their pockets and out of their way will lead use to new and better ideas far more quickly.

The facts are-  Business taxes didn't seem to affect the innovation by people and companies like Bill Gates at Microsoft or Steve Jobs at Apple. Or Google. Or many of our innovators and inventors.

What about one of the most taxed and regulated businesses out there- The Wall Street brokers and investment bankers and banking companies? A huge part of the economy in the NE CONUS. Like the auto biz in Michigan. Should their taxes be lowered and their regulations eased for the benefit of the country?

Could there be *more* innovation if there were fewer regulations and less taxes? Maybe, maybe not.
As I previously mentioned, I think the larger problem is the American public. Laziness, poorly educated, and unwilling to sacrifice. These are points of philosophy that can can be endlessly debated and I really don't want to do so here. Let's do it over a beer some time.

You also make quite a few claims about what the public wants or doesn't want that just aren't true. We've never had a real public discussion of the flat tax. So to claim people don't want it is false. They've never been asked. One thing is for sure, if the public thinks it will lead to them paying less taxes, they will be for it. 

I stand by my assertion. The public doesn't have an interest in discussing a flat tax because of self-interest and ignorance. It's off the radar screen.

The current system is broke. Making incremental changes is akin to shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

I prefer to look at it as "Great journeys began one step at a time".

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Gary's Rule #6:

6. No political or religious posts will be tolerated on this site, unless directly related to our hobby.  There are thousands of sites one can go for that subject matter including the TV or newspaper.  People do not come to AMfone for that.


Do we really need this discussion here   

[W1RKW]

Until alternative energies are competitive or cheaper than oil, coal, and n-gas, then fossil fuel will continue to rule. Until it hits home with the main population (they wake up and get out of dream land) we'll see what happens.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Yes they did, Steve, note how last November's election turned out. The recession hit, and there was a huge outcry to "do something". And the above things were pursued.

The election was about biodiesel? Wow. Beer must have been involved for you to come up with that one!

There was no public clamor for any of those so called alternatives. If there was, to use your line of reasoning, something would have been done about it. But there wasn't. Further, they have been quietly pursued for years if not decades by private interests. If anything has changed since the election it has been merely in the realm of rhetoric and feel good slogans. Useful, significant change will not come from Washington. It never has. Why do you think it will now?

[Bill, KD0HG]

Yes they did, Steve, note how last November's election turned out. The recession hit, and there was a huge outcry to "do something". And the above things were pursued.

The election was about biodiesel? Wow. Beer must have been involved for you to come up with that one!

Actually, you introduced the subject of biodiesel to this discussion, not I. Remember?

There's now enough interest in the old grease that it's not going into landfills any more. It's selling for a premium, in fact.

That's called American ingenuity at its best. Why do you ridicule it?

(Uurrpp)

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I don't. I'm not ridiculing anything. I'm questioning your assertion that the election was about biodiesel, or the claim it was the result of some public clamor. The facts just don't support this. It was an election, like any other. You can insert CNG, solar or anything else in place of biodiesel. The facts are the same.

But I do want some of that beer you're drinking. It must be some good stuff.   

Yes they did, Steve, note how last November's election turned out. The recession hit, and there was a huge outcry to "do something". And the above things were pursued.

The election was about biodiesel? Wow. Beer must have been involved for you to come up with that one!

Actually, you introduced the subject of biodiesel to this discussion, not I. Remember?

There's now enough interest in the old grease that it's not going into landfills any more. It's selling for a premium, in fact.

That's called American ingenuity at its best. Why do you ridicule it?

(Uurrpp)

[Art]

"Do we really need this discussion here  Huh"  

Pete, I am sure Garys rule applies because many folks tend to go off the deep end and get personal in such a discussion. This one has been a civil and respectful exchange of ideas. I am impressed and admire the ability to step outside ones self and see other points of view. All parties to the conversation have done so. We do have something in common and it may be the glue that holds us together in possibly contentious discussions; We are all AMers.

Perhaps you could do as I do for the ARRL posts? . .  just avoid the thread. . .

0ba

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I have not mentioned one political party. I've kept this purposefully apolitical. Besides, Bill is buying the beer and what could be wrong with that?

[Pete, WA2CWA]

"Do we really need this discussion here  Huh"  

Pete, I am sure Garys rule applies because many folks tend to go off the deep end and get personal in such a discussion. This one has been a civil and respectful exchange of ideas. I am impressed and admire the ability to step outside ones self and see other points of view. All parties to the conversation have done so. We do have something in common and it may be the glue that holds us together in possibly contentious discussions; We are all AMers.

Perhaps you could do as I do for the ARRL posts? . .  just avoid the thread. . .

0ba

As long as posters keep the politics and political views off the thread, I don't have a problem with it although there are other forums where this type of topic would probably find more interest. Of course, the thread has now moved pretty far from the original post that started the thread. I also suspect, and as the Rules point out, that many come here, for the radio-related and technical discussions. We have many members and they are not all AM operators. Our technical and QSO discussion areas embrace a wide variety of radio-related topics.

As to your phrase, "just avoid the thread". Sorry, but I can't accommodate you on this one. As a Moderator, I make it a point, as much as I can,  to view all posted threads.

[Bill, KD0HG]

I much prefer Tequila, Steve.

I'm still buying anytime you want. I doubt that I shall ever venture east of the Ohio River during the rest of my life. I'm too busy farming, ranching, killing prairie dogs, helping horses have babies, working in obsolete radio and being a ham radio operator.

Funny thing that most people have never noticed...Here in the west, you leave your money on the bar for the bartender to make change from until it's used up, in the east, you don't do that. You guys whip out the dead presidents later.

Seriously, I respect your opinions, but I don't often agree.
And vice-versa.

I'm OK with that. Like I've said, opinions are like @ssholes, everybody's got one.

Let's leave it at that.

Peace?

[Art]

"As to your phrase, "just avoid the thread". Sorry, but I can't accommodate you on this one. As a Moderator, I make it a point, as much as I can,  to view all posted threads."

OK Pete. Do what you must. One might consider your moderation somewhat superfluous considering this discussion is well represented by moderators. Your dedication to duty is most impressive though.

0ba

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Well, if we ever meet up, I will buy you some Tequila.

It's more interesting to disagree. Keeps me thinking. So, thanks for the discourse and on to more important things, like killing prairie dogs. That sounds like fun!

I much prefer Tequila, Steve.

I'm still buying anytime you want. I doubt that I shall ever venture east of the Ohio River during the rest of my life. I'm too busy farming, ranching, killing prairie dogs, helping horses have babies, working in obsolete radio and being a ham radio operator.

Funny thing that most people have never noticed...Here in the west, you leave your money on the bar for the bartender to make change from until it's used up, in the east, you don't do that. You guys whip out the dead presidents later.

Seriously, I respect your opinions, but I don't often agree.
And vice-versa.

I'm OK with that. Like I've said, opinions are like @ssholes, everybody's got one.

Let's leave it at that.

Peace?

[k4kyv]

There was a Nation wide call for deregulation and there you have it..and now we are living in it...you have to remember that..First.

Remember, FCC Docket 20777 was officially titled "Deregulation".