Hoard II

[Opcom]

Hoard I was shown some time ago.

Today, Hoard II was seen for the first time. Different hoarder, different hoard! Some nice stuff here. I came away with two HT-9's and a small military shortwave receiver, a couple of guts from BC-610? tuning units, and a radar (from another party)

http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/hoard2/index.html

[W3RSW]

Marine radar.  Cool.
What's the 360 sweep time?
-e.g., If you put in on top of a van, how fast could you go before you max'd out the display?  -Assuming you could run in the desert without to many phone poles, etc. 

Then again, not too many fog banks in the desert.

[W1AEX]

Looks like an old AN/GRR-5 (Angry 5) Shortwave Receiver. We used to have them mounted in the back of all of our command jeeps. They were great for listening to ball games when we made our own trails up into the woods and were sacked out and "hiding". Very tinny and metallic sounding when coupled to the 308/URR power supply-speaker. They could really take a beating and were completely unaffected when hit by numerous beer cans.

[Opcom]

The radar has a 16 mile radius. 360 is about 2.5 seconds at 24RPM. I have not had it high enough to see much of anything, since the shortest pulse is 0.08uS on the 1/16 mile ring.

I do not understand about maxing out the display. Can you explain that to me please?

It will probably go on my M35A2 military truck (60MPH tops), but I have to fiberglass the radome which is made of AES plastic (whatever that is) and find microwave-compatible green paint.. Or, it could go on a telescoping mast for portable ops, but that is always a pain. I want to take the patch array off and see if I can give it a few degrees upward angle using a shim since the vertical beamwidth is something like 25 degrees, and I do not need to look at the ground and trees... The radome model is 10X rated 1.5KW, the display a 40XX. This is also the timing controller. This display lets me upgrade to a 4KW radome later. It has a 6 degree H beamwidth.

It has a rain clutter control, which, if I study that, I should be able to make it show me rain, rather than get rid of rain.

The only tech-weird thing, with this slightly mismatched set, is that the 40xx display indicates a 0.35uS pulse at the 3 and longer mile ranges, versus the original display's 0.5uS pulse and the de facto of the scanner's 0.5uS pulse..

The 40xx display sends a 3-state analog voltage to the modulator to set the pulse width to 0.08, 0.35, or 0.7uS (long pulse 11V, short pulse 0V). the 10XX radome accepts a binary on/off signal to select one of two pulse widths 0.08 or 0.5uS, (11 or 0 V, not sure the polarity but I will have to figure it out, see attached schematic?). Furthermore the 40XX radome I do not have, changes pulse width by brute force transformer-driven method with no delay line. The 10X uses a relay on a delay line. I believe that the 10X will go to the 0.5uS long pulse mode at the 3 mile and up range, having looked at the schematic.  I am in for some fun experimenting. Although the display has 8 level quantized raster scan, I am tempted to pick off the actual video output signal and see if I can display it on another display of PPI type. I also only saw 4 levels of brightness on the display, meaning that the CRT circuit may be in need of some alignment for black level (too much cut off).

The mil. RX covers 1.5 to 18 MHz like the GRR-5 but it must be a somewhat different model since it is one piece (grr-5 in attachment). The tubes are 1 volt and 3 volt 7-pin miniatures as seen in same era portable entertainment radios, must have been a battery set. Too bad the case is gone, but aside from one broken tube it seems OK. i have to revisit it and see, I could not see a model number earlier.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

The mil. RX covers 1.5 to 18 MHz like the GRR-5 but it must be a somewhat different model since it is one piece (grr-5 in attachment).

Nah, you just got the R-174 receiver piece of the set, PJ. Though some were installed in separate cabinets, most were delivered in the tandem rcvr/ps cabinet set up. I've got one that I sometimes haul around to hamfests to use whilst sitting around with the gang. Nice little rig, sounds better if you unscrew the spare fuse cover on the ps deck first. This defeats the somewhat air/water-tight design allowing the speaker cone to move more, and transforms the sound from tinny to nasal.

The 'extremely rare' Collins prewar transmitter is actually the fairly plentiful 32RA which, though a prewar design (used by police depts and such), was produced up through the 50s virtually unchanged in appearance. Unless it's a very early model, there's nothing rare or exciting about it. Saw 4-5 of them at Dayton in 2007. AFAIK, they went as high as the model 8 (32RA-8) but not sure. Roughly 50watts output from 807s, 1.5 - 15 mc channelized design with lotsa plug in coils, tuning units, etc. Not bad looking, but minimal knobs to twiddle and very limited utility. Along the lines of the world's heaviest CB radio.

[Opcom]

Oh I see about the RX now that you mention that. I am missing the power unit and speaker. Ok, well I need the manual, I can fix that up and see how she works. with a good non-tinny speaker! Looks like it's got alot of tuned circuits. If nothing else, it was lying on the ground in a pile about to be scrapped, so I saved it. Could become a nice entertainment shortwave. Has the right look too.. (attachment)

As for the collins, he thought it was rare. maybe there's something about it, or, he knows I like that boatanchor kind of stuff. haha but I got an HT-9 now! - -and THAT is also a big heavy CB radio if there ever was one.

So what's the collins 32RA worth if complete? so many at Dayton, must not be too much.

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

The 'extremely rare' Collins prewar transmitter is actually the fairly plentiful 32RA which, though a prewar design (used by police depts and such), was produced up through the 50s virtually unchanged in appearance. Unless it's a very early model, there's nothing rare or exciting about it. Saw 4-5 of them at Dayton in 2007. AFAIK, they went as high as the model 8 (32RA-8) but not sure. Roughly 50watts output from 807s, 1.5 - 15 mc channelized design with lotsa plug in coils, tuning units, etc. Not bad looking, but minimal knobs to twiddle and very limited utility. Along the lines of the world's heaviest CB radio.

Todd - You're right on the money about the Collins 32RA. They were introduced in 1939/40 for the commercial market, and then used in WWII as a airport tower transmitter for military installations. I believe it uses a trio of 807's in parrallel, modulated by a quad of 6L6's in PP-Parallel. I had the complete manual scanned and uploaded to the Collins Collectors website if anyone wishes to look at it.
I have a 32RA-8, and it's the heaviest (128 lbs) 50W output tran smitter you'll likely find anywhere!

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I have a 32RA-8, and it's the heaviest (128 lbs) 50W output tran smitter you'll likely find anywhere!

Now, why doesn't it surprise me that you have one, Joe?  They are certainly an interesting and historic transmitter, top quality and over-built like typical Collins gear. It's the utility that's lacking in my view, despite being perfect for their intended use, no doubt. Those TMC channelized receivers come to mind: excellent quality and performance, but far too limited for the typical knob-twiddler.

As for the collins, he thought it was rare. maybe there's something about it, or, he knows I like that boatanchor kind of stuff. haha but I got an HT-9 now! - -and THAT is also a big heavy CB radio if there ever was one.

So what's the collins 32RA worth if complete? so many at Dayton, must not be too much.

Well, the only thing that could qualify it is rare/desirable from my perspective would be if it was actually an early example. Still, that would only give it some limited historical significance to a Collins collector-type - perhaps. You definitely made the better score with the HT-9. Higher coolness factor, and far more flexible even with its plug-in coils and such.

As far as value (keep in mind that I'm a user, not a die-hard collector), I think $100 for a clean example would be pushing it. Unless it's your only transmitter, you'll end up spending most of your time with it in 'visual mode' once it's cleaned up and working. If you just GOTTA HAVE ONE to stick on a shelf and admire/check off the list of Collins products, you'd maybe pay double that. Money is no object when bragging rights are at stake.

[Opcom]

I have a 32RA-8, and it's the heaviest (128 lbs) 50W output tran smitter you'll likely find anywhere!

Now, why doesn't it surprise me that you have one, Joe?  They are certainly an interesting and historic transmitter, top quality and over-built like typical Collins gear. It's the utility that's lacking in my view, despite being perfect for their intended use, no doubt. Those TMC channelized receivers come to mind: excellent quality and performance, but far too limited for the typical knob-twiddler.

As for the collins, he thought it was rare. maybe there's something about it, or, he knows I like that boatanchor kind of stuff. haha but I got an HT-9 now! - -and THAT is also a big heavy CB radio if there ever was one.

So what's the collins 32RA worth if complete? so many at Dayton, must not be too much.

Well, the only thing that could qualify it is rare/desirable from my perspective would be if it was actually an early example. Still, that would only give it some limited historical significance to a Collins collector-type - perhaps. You definitely made the better score with the HT-9. Higher coolness factor, and far more flexible even with its plug-in coils and such.

As far as value (keep in mind that I'm a user, not a die-hard collector), I think $100 for a clean example would be pushing it. Unless it's your only transmitter, you'll end up spending most of your time with it in 'visual mode' once it's cleaned up and working. If you just GOTTA HAVE ONE to stick on a shelf and admire/check off the list of Collins products, you'd maybe pay double that. Money is no object when bragging rights are at stake.

indeed. Pursuit of bragging rights have led to a cutting laser, a GE light valve projector, an M35 military truck, numerous harris and green military radios, 5 pdp-8 computers and 4 11/780's, and nearly a small cyclotron (if something like that can be considered small).  bragging rights are bad juju. very bad. Especially when the item to be bragged on is so obscure no one appreciates it.

BTW if anyone has the manual for the PJ-400 GE light valve projector or any PJ series, I would appreciate it..
There is nothing like a hybrid transistor and tube 100-lumen black and white TV projector.

The Collins the guy had is complete, but for some odd reason a long shaft for switches (tuning/channel) inside it has been removed. He has the shaft but it had been missing. it turned up when we dug out the HT-9's. I think he got it that way. I may have a handset for that Collins. attached to my Link VHF rig.

Looking now for the first time at the Collins, I realize there was an excellent "removed" modulation deck at Nortex. I have no idea where it is now, or if it was even saved.
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/nortex/100_0366.JPG

[W3RSW]

Opcon asked:

I do not understand about maxing out the display. Can you explain that to me please?

I just meant that in a slow moving or stopped boat an older mechanically rotated display would show stuff in more accurate bearing than if you were moving in a vehicle at 60 mph, that is if the antenna rotation speed was to slow or the electronics uncorrected for motion.

 So by the time it rotated around again trying to display the same object, the object would have 'moved' to say 330 if ahead and say 390 if behind.  You'd be adding two errors, yours and the target's motion.  I'm sure modern military jet radars have compensation for this sort of thing along with much faster electronic sweep.  Phased array antennae, targeted sweep, etc.

Anyway it sounds like you'll have lots of fun with it.   

[Opcom]

I see. I don't intend to drive with it on. I already did have some fun. located some cows in a field. I also had the antenna off to check it out the power. I set an octal VR tube on the open wavegiude and it lit up.  Average power is very low like <1W. It also makes noises in the nearby AM BC radio. At least it is working. The licensing is taking forever to complete so other than a few tests already completed to make sure it worked properly, I am not operating it at all. The FCC wanted me to justify my eligibility to use a "mobile radiolocation device for purposes other than navigation". I guess they don't just hand those tickets out right and left. I believe I am eligible due to my intended uses and I hope they will grant it soon.

[W3RSW]

So you mentioned before that you wanted to get into the clutter control circuitry in order to display rain rather than reject it.  A local weather radar of sorts.  Hmmm,  Wonder how this control works.  Returning RF has rough and wispy edges instead of hard target,  I'd guess for rain or other soft targets? ... so must be some sort of limiter, maybe even a schmitd trigger making hard targets "harder."

Maybe you could even modulate the outgoing beam in order to affect 'penetrating' and back scattering abilities, e.g., reflection of, say, water molecules, selectivity affecting the return echos.  I'll have to dig out my 'Handbook of Chemistry and Physics to see what water molecule resonances, if any, fall in your transmit band.  Then you could tune the output freq. for maximum effect as well as potentially modulating it.
'
Sounds like a lot of room for experimentation.  I never thought of a license requirement. You'd have a better chance if 'experimental purpose' was tied to an educational institution.

 There you go, .. "Opcon Research, LLC" 

[Opcom]

I think I can get the license. What I do not want is to become someone the FCC is trying to collect fines from. I just checked and it says "pending".

It's on 9445MHz.

One thing that needs done is tilting the patch antenna back a bit so it looks more at the sky. I believe the tilt needs to be 12 degrees since the beamwidth in the vertical plane is 25 degrees. One way would be to shim the antenna waveguide, but it would require some grinding since it is a solid cylinder with an internal rectangular waveguide section that fits into a rotating cylinder with a like waveguide "hole". I do not know what kind of mismatch it might create. Another option might be to figure out how to bend (tilt) the assy backwards right above where the probe exits the solid cylinder section.

I think I posted the modulator section. The RX is mostly analog till it gets to a chip that convets the video from PPI to raster scan. The video comes from the radome, and is processed in the display.

But for the reception, the STC (sensitivity time constant) is one place to fiddle. But more importantly there is a FTC or frequency time constant that lowers the high frequency video cutoff point with time. This is used to get rid of rain clutter. The books says it acts to show only the leading edge of the rain clutter, so there might be more to it.. So, I think the only difference will be operating the set at first. The RX has a switchable bandwidth of 10 or 3 MHz and this is controlled by the pulse width selection. The PW logic is passed through the modulator. So it could be separated for experiments. RX has a 60MHz IF input.

One thing of note I have the Raytheon 40xx display, and the 10X radome. I have to study the operation of each. The manual's note about rain clutter is attached.

[W3RSW]

Thanks for the clarification.

All the molecular resonance data in my old literature seems to be in the HF ranges only.  I'll have to research more up to date stuff via the net.

Well it looks like you already have a 'weather' radar. The beam angle won't have to be raised too much since the original use may have been on the high seas or rough water with beam angle all over the place anyway.  I guess you can use it as local aircraft detection...   uh, where they 'were' anyway.

You'll sure have to get it above the trees; maybe a cutoff plate around the base of the antenna. That might play havoc with return signals though.

Umm, buy a boat to go with it for best results.