GFCI Breaker Installation Question

[W1AEX]

I have been doing some electrical service upgrades to my house and have a quick question regarding selection of a GFCI breaker. I have had very good luck with Leviton GFI outlets in the bathrooms, the radio room workbench, and the garage. They don't seem to be affected by strong RF fields and have not "falsely" tripped, even when running a kilowatt on any band. Unfortunately, in the kitchen, the two outlets on either side of the sink are mounted through tile, and the holes through the tiles are too small to accommodate GFI outlets. I remember how many tiles I broke when I used the "nibbler" to cut those holes when I installed the tiles, so I'm looking at installing a GFCI breaker down in the panel for that circuit to avoid messing with the tile cutter again. Has anyone found a particular brand to be resistant to RF issues? The last thing I want to do is to be tripping the kitchen outlets during operating sessions. That could ruin a perfectly good pot of coffee!

Thanks for any suggestions,

Rob W1AEX

[W1RKW]

Rob,
I don't have any info on brands but you may be only relegated to using  what will fit in the panel.  What brand panel do you have?

[N0WEK]

Actually, the simplest method is to add a handi box right next to the panel (which gives you an extra receptacle) and just wire your kitchen circuits downstream from them. If you have two kitchen circuits you want to do just use a double box and wire up two GFCIs.

Simple and cheap!

[W1AEX]

Hi Bob,

It's a GE panel, less than 5 years old, and there is currently a 20 amp breaker installed. Will GE panels only accept GE breakers? I see that HD carries GE brand GFCI (20 amp) breakers for around 40 bucks.

I'd like to avoid a seperate box if possible Greg, but using the downstream receptacle method is a very clever and inexpensive way to go. Thanks for offering that solution! Having an outlet right by the panel could come in handy too...

Hmmm... I'm going to have to think about that!

[W1RKW]

Rob,
I'm no electrician but my understanding is certain breakers will only fit certain panels.  Maybe someone else can chime in on that and verify.
Bob

[k4kyv]

I don't know about ground-fault breakers, but it is my understanding that arc-fault breakers, which would be a good idea in my ancient wood frame house with ancient, difficult-to-access wiring with dried-out insulation, operate on the principle of rf hash caused by an arc tripping the breaker, so I suspect they would be incompatible with strong rf fields in the vicinity.

[WA1GFZ]

Rob,
I also have a GE panel with GE GFIs in the new place but have not run a TX in the house yet. I would be interested in your findings. How about a small cutting disc to cut the tile. many roto type tools have small discs for cutting hard things.

[W1AEX]

How about a small cutting disc to cut the tile. many roto type tools have small discs for cutting hard things.

Unfortunately, I only got a C+ in shop Frank. Both outlets come together at the junction of 4 tiles, so that gives me 4 chances on each outlet to screw it up. I kind of like the idea of protecting that whole circuit (five outlets serving the kitchen counters) so I think I'll keep looking into an electrical solution and not test my limited craftsman abilities!

 

[WA1GFZ]

Well one way to find out.... take a ride to Home Depot and buy one. I hope it works for you because I have 5 of them and plan to install at least two more when I wire the basement and second bathroom.

[N0WEK]

Depending on how many breaker spaces you have available you may be able to just go ahead and use the GFCI breakers, they've gotten cheaper over the years. GE boxes will take a couple of other brands, like Gould and some generics. The only other problem is that GEs come in narrow (1/2 inch) breakers and full size (1 inch) and the GFCIs will be full size, so if you're replacing 1/2 in breakers two of them will eat up another 1 inch space.

[W1AEX]

The one that is presently in there is a 1 inch "thick type" breaker. Looks like the General Electric 20 Amp Model THQL1120GFI (also a 1 inch thick type) will slide right in. I'll pick one of those up at HD and see how it works out in the presence of RF. Hopefully it will be as resistant as the Leviton GFI outlets.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100097988&marketID=10&locStoreNum=6228&categoryID=502157

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll let you know if it behaves nicely when the RF is in the air...

[W1RKW]

Hopefully, the run of wire won't act as an antenna and maybe there's a chance that the GFCI breaker will be immune to RF since it is in a metal grounded box.  Toroid the Romex.

[W1AEX]

I've been doing more reading about GFCI breakers today, specifically false tripping issues, and think I will put this part of my project on hold. I just have no desire to introduce a new problem where one does not currently exist.

I did find it interesting that in instances where electrical contractors were unable to determine why GFCI breakers were tripping, even with nothing plugged into any outlets on the circuit, electricians repeatedly suggested pulling the GFCI breaker and putting a standard breaker in and then installing an external GFI outlet just as N0WEK suggested. That seemed to resolve the unexplainable tripping problems in many cases. Curiously, no explanations were offered as to why this made a difference.

I have not had any RF tripping issues with the 5 GFI outlets I have installed, but then again, none of them have a long run of wire connected to the sensor side of the circuit as a GFCI breaker would. At any rate, I'll let this part of the project slide for now and move on to something else. Thanks again for the suggestions!

73,

Rob W1AEX 

[KB2WIG]

 " Curiously, no explanations were offered as to why this made a difference. "

The trivial answer is that there is a path for current to leak from the 'house' wiring. The fun part is to find out where the current gose.

It's also possible that the GFI used is defective, but I'll asume that an electrician would swap out the unit.

klc

[N0WEK]

I think much of the problem, at least in the early days of GFCIs, was that they'd put a GFCI breaker in the box and then feed the detached garage with direct bury UF cable. I had to fix a couple that kept tripping the breakers and the only way to cure it was to put a GFCI receptacle in the garage and a normal breaker in the box. The UF cable absorbs just enough moisture to leak just enough current to trip the GFCIs.

I can't remember having the problem inside unless someone had wired the circuits wrong. Normal working electricians know all mechanical techniques to do the job to code but tend to be weak on theory and go more by rule of thumb. 

[W1AEX]

Yes, detached structures with underground runs were mentioned several times as being troublesome with mystery GFCI tripping. Also, buildings where new wiring and old wiring were "merged" tended to be unpredictable as well. The most interesting cases (to me) were in schools and hospitals, where all kinds of weird stuff would happen, such as a load on one circuit would not trip its own GFCI breaker, but it would trip a GFCI on another circuit. I don't envy the guys who have to figure out solutions to those kinds of problems!

Thanks again for the heads-up on the external handi box solution.

73,

Rob W1AEX