The Six Minute Guideline - How to Dynamically Handle Imploding Roundtables?

[K1JJ]

Hola,

Ever have a one-on-one AM QSO going and then several stations break in? That's common. Ever have it get so big it implodes on itself as guys start dropping out like flies?  Ever have a big roundtable going and guys start making longer and longer transmissions - fearing this is the last time they'll get it - so might as well get their licks in now? (Then they sign out at the end) Ever wish YOU could TALK more often to reply quickly to comments of a large roundtable group?

Ever have a successful roundtable with over eight guys that keeps flowing and everyone stays interested  - and everyone talks about the same amount of time, frequently?  I have, using the guidelines presented below.

Well, it may be possible to have the best of all worlds when a QSO expands to more than two participants.  I'd like to introduce a possible solution called, "The Six Minute Guideline" - For Dynamic Roundtables. 

Using this guideline, YOU (and everyone else) will get to talk EVERY SIX minutes, no matter how many are in the group. (Up to seven participants) If the group gets to eight or more, then it becomes an extra minute of delay for each additional station.



Here's how it works - For more than two stations, each transmission = 6 minutes / number of participants -1


Examples:

Two guys in a QSO -  Talk as long as you wish - it's up to the two guys.  But a SIX minute transmission maximum per station is a good rule to give each station a chance to respond to each others' comments. (YOU get to talk every six minutes)

Three guys in a QSO:  Now, each station adjusts and talks THREE minutes maximum. (YOU still get to talk every six minutes)

Four Guys:  Each station talks TWO Minutes Maximum.  (YOU still get to talk every Six Minutes)

Five Guys:  Each station talks  One Minute,  30 seconds   (YOU still get to talk every Six minutes)

Six Guys:   Each station gets to talk  One Minute 15 seconds (YOU STILL get to talk every six minutes)

Seven Guys:  One minute transmissions -  (YOU still talk every six minutes)

EIGHT or MORE guys - Transmissions are limited to One minute each, maximum. (You may have to wait slightly longer than six minutes depending on the group size)


Last year, I had up to TWELVE stations in a roundtable QSO doing coast to coast on 75M AM. I mentioned to everyone to keep the transmissions down to 1 minute max. The group expanded and contracted dynamically and it kept going all night. It really does work.

This method requires everyone to write down the stations in the QSO - and who they need turn it to next.  We all do that now anyway.


I think what turns off many hams is the random way we deal with AM roundtables now. It's hit or miss - you never know how long you will be waiting and if transmissions are long, will you remember the long list of things to comment on?  I have a saying... "The longer someone talks, the less others will comment on what was just said."   It's true. If someone makes a short comment, they will get 100% of their comment replied to. If they make a 20 minute transmission, perhaps 5% will get commented on, or others will simply say, "Good on everything, Joe... now, as I was saying..."


Huz, Paul, John and I tried this method last night on 40M AM. It worked tremendously well and we were getting to comment on each others' transmissions every six minutes. Every time a new station broke in, the next station talking would announce the new transmission time max.  It was distracting at first, but after a while, everyone naturally adjusted and didn't bother looking at the clock. Our comments were more focused and less time was wasted fiddling with dead air. In fact, in the past, when a group grows too big, I will usually sign out before I have to wait another 30 minutes to talk. With these shorter, predicable transmissions, I find myself staying much longer than normal cuz it's more interesting and I know I can sign out every six minutes or less...   No more being trapped.

How long is six minutes? It comes around pretty fast.   How long is three minutes for one station to talk with three participants? Try holding your breath or holding your arms out straight for three minutes and see. It's plenty of time to talk in an uniterrupted monologue.

Another point: At any time, the group could decide to go BREAK-IN. This works with some groups and for others it doesn't. It depends on the situation and people. In contrast, if the roundtable mode is desired, the dynamic six minute guideline gives a structured way of insuring everyone gets a fair chance to speak. YOU get to talk frequently and the group can expand or shrink with no change in functionality. Take your pick.

**  I'm looking for comments and improvements on these ideas. I plan to experiment with them further on the air to see how they work. Obviously, something like this would be voluntary and anyone can still make long transmissions when they feel like it...     There will be some large groups where everyone is comfortable doing 15 minute transmissions - which is FB.  This is simply another tool to have available when needed for large groups.

Watsa?

73,
Tom, K1JJ
 

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Very good points and suggestions, Tom. Can't really improve on them beyond adding one observation (which I know is shared by others):

 - some who claim to hate roundtables and prefer break-in end up breaking in on every transmission someone else makes (yeah, we all love to talk) with endless doubling, and also seem to prefer to 'buzzard away' despite claiming to be against it. Nothing kills a group faster, except maybe political/religious discussion. Sends 'em running for the hills. 

I know Don K4KYV and others have suggested large groups breaking up into smaller groups and moving to different frequencies, allowing folks to move from QSO to QSO and adding a great deal of variety. Seldom do there seem to be enough folks on the air to do this, yet those humongous groups still seem to form. After the band expansion, particularly the night of the band warming party, this approach worked FB, OM.

IIRC, Don prefers 6 people max, which strikes me as a good sized group. Your figures fit this well. Funny thing is, I heard some guys down on 80 last night apparently new to AM mention that "If we're going to run AM, remember that we need to be long-winded" in jest. So our rep indeed preceeds us. 

[WA1GFZ]

Usually what happens is a couple people dominate the conversation and hijack the frequency. Then the CB moron stuff starts. Sounds like a good idea but the piss weakers may need to sign on.

[W1AEX]

Great suggestions Tom. You have hit the target squarely. My most memorable AM conversations have always been those that employed break-in, or some form of the "no more than 30 words or 30 seconds" rule. Your idea of a sliding time scale with each additional station sounds very reasonable and might encourage more participation.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I am in some sort of a round table format with extended old-buzzard transmissions, I try to take notes, but the phone inevitably rings, or my wife wanders in and starts talking, or someone shows up at the door, or an impending biological function calls me away. Typically, I usually only hear about 10% of what has been said.

At any rate, I like this proposal a lot.

Rob AEX

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I personally try to stay away from roundtables, and the bigger they get, the less interest I have in joining or continuing. The transmission of one person many times directs his dialogue to one or two people. Others not having interest in what the previous person said, since it wasn't directed to him, rambles on with some other topic when its their turn to transmit. And so it goes, round and round. I find it boring and lose interest in what anybody is saying very quickly.  I enjoy one on one QSO's, since generally the dialogue of both people are naturally directed to each other.

I've also noticed that some roundtables generally digress into a goof-off type mentality. Maybe those who have to join roundtables all the time are the same who fear calling CQ and feeling rejection when no one comes back. 

[W2DU]

There was a group beginning in the 1960s with whom I was involved that solved the 'wait yer turn' problem. It was entirely break in. If you wanted to enter you just dropped your name in when someone ended a sentence. Each person's xmsn usually lasted for one or two sentences, sometimes three. The nature of the roundtable was as if everyone was in a single room, perhaps during a dinner, and anyone who had something to say did it. Then every ten minutes each one would ID per FCC regs. These sessions occurred on SSB at 3.999 MHz, with stations mostly on the East Coast from ME to VA. Then on the first Monday every month those of us within two hours driving distance met at the Colt's Neck Inn, in Colt's Neck, NJ. It was about 20 miles from RCA where I worked, so my boss, W2KKM, and I were there every week. And once every year nearly everyone came, around 100 usually. Knowing each other personally provided a lot of satisfaction.

During the 1990's a lot of the older guys (and gals) had died, and there weren't many of the younger hams interested in the boardroom style contacts we were using, so that style of activity has been long gone. I could never see why that style wasn't duplicated instead of the 'it's my turn to talk now for six minutes and then it will be your turn'. I never liked participating in that style of operating.

Evidently Rob has also experienced this style of operating--it really works, and to me, it's much more satisfying than the usual method.

Walt, W2DU

[k4kyv]

When the number gets past four, that's the time to hit the door.

[KX5JT]

When Tom suggested this method to us there were four of us.  IIRC I think we went with 2 minutes each.  I even went so far as to download a cool free timer (called cool timer   ) that counts down like a stop watch (among other settings) and then pops up a neat scrolling simulated L.E.D. banner that ,according to my option settings, displays Turn it over to the next station now!  It worked well!  I was kinda impressed how fast the 2 minutes went by.  Anyway, as I am very close to putting my Heathkit DX-60 on the operating desk, with the T/R hopefully all working... I hope I can get a PTT solution worked out.   If not the mode wafer switch might be a little cumbersome for break-in type operation but all the more motivation to get is done right.  

In conclusion, I like the idea.  Kudos Tom.  

[WA1GFZ]

I like a big group when working in the shack as background.

[K1JJ]

These sessions occurred on SSB at 3.999 MHz, with stations mostly on the East Coast from ME to VA. ..... Knowing each other personally provided a lot of satisfaction.
Walt, W2DU

Thanks for the comments so far, guys!


Walt:  You brought up a couple of important points.  

If we tune the band we'll hear a large portion of ssb is break-in operation. It's a natural with Vox or fast PTT.  Tune the band and we'll hear most AM operations are long transmissions.

But there are exceptions.  In an AM group, I find the closer-bonded friends are, the more apt they are to run break-in. Whereas, a more formal AM group will tend to make longer transmissions and do roundtable operation.

Personally, I would much rather do break-in on both ssb and AM, but it doesn't always work out that way.  I find that if the group is doing roundtable, trying to make it break-in will drive most of the participants away. And the opposite is true - if it's a break-in operation, if some guys start making old buzzard transmissions, the group also implodes.  Some personalities are better suited to one type or the other, but rarely both.

So, the reason for playing around with the guideline suggestions is to try to find a way to make a roundtable more efficient so that even break-in types can participate and not be bored...   If anything, it may make some think more about making shorter transmissions when the group grows large. I think most do that already in some ways.

T

[w3jn]

Tom, great idears fer shore, but in my experience the biggest factor that implodes round tables is everyone forgets who to turn it to next (I am certainly guilty of this myself).  Then someone gets left out and forgotten, or you have the typical "I can't remember who to turn it to so I'll throw it up on the air" and you have chaos.

So you have a few guys pissed because they were forgotten, or someone gets double the number of turns, or someone breaks in and isn't acknowledged, etc.  Who you take it from, and who you turn it over to when you're done is dynamic depending upon who checks in and out so in a big group with all kinds of drifters and/or pissweakers it does get hard to remember.

[W3SLK]

I tend to agree with JN. I'm a doctor's doctor, (I have no patients), and get quite PO'd when I get skipped because of too large of a round table. Also, Tom had mentioned about going to break-in. For some of us, in my case depending on which rig I'm running, break-in just won't work. Personally, I eschew break-in because you seem to get everyone clamouring for the same 'space-in-time.' Forgetting what 'so-n-so' said is a natural occurrence. I wish (I) and others would take notes but then it becomes too much like work. I guess what I am trying to say is that however you feel comfortable operating. If things become too complex, bow out and take a powder or slip up/down stream for another QSO.

[Blaine N1GTU]

the problem isn't with roundtables or break-in, its with the hams that love to hear themselves talk and monopolize the QSO.
you know who/what I'm talking about, when you turn it over to "A" and "B" keys up and answers for them... then "B" turns it over to "A" but actually was doubling with "A" because it wasn't theirs in the first place
there is also the random turnover to someone, who is then caught off guard and feels compelled to transmit and say nothing for 10 minutes just because it was handed over to them.
not to mention the qso implosion when a pw tries to jump in then gets mad when nobody can hear them.

[WQ9E]

Blaine,

You nailed it!  As an example last week I was monitoring an AM QSO while building the connecting cable for my Eico 720/730 pair.  One of the stations in the group picked it up and his first sentence was, "I don't know much about that technology..." and then spent about 5 minutes empirically proving he didn't before repeating the same pattern with the next topic he didn't know much about.  He then went into the, "well, time to turn it over..." except each time he would mutter a few sentences about an unrelated subject, mention turning it over, and then continue with more BS.  After close to 20 minutes he finally did turn it over but the next 2 stations in the round table had left in disgust.  Some stations should be forced to use sweep tube finals so the tubes themselves will time out before an excessively long transmission is made.

This particular ham isn't well advanced in years, he is simply a boor and has a way of destroying any round table he finds.  Interestingly enough, several of the round table participants did the same thing you would do with a "must be the center of attention boor" in a social setting.  They "walked away" a few kilohertz and started a new round table group.

Rodger WQ9E

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Man, you certainly nailed a lot of it Blaine. It'd be a great start to a comedy routine if it wasn't so true. I think Frank's comment about the hijack mentality is pretty much the same thing, the 'all about me' ops.

John, I've had the same problem at times with trying to remember who it goes to, after the group grows too large or, more often - people come and go, jumping in and interrupting the flow and associated thought process. And, of course, we ain't a-gittin' no younger, sonny. They say the memory is the second thing to go, can't remember what the first is....

I do enjoy an interesting roundtable provided it doesn't get too large. Especially since I tend to be farting around with some piece of gear or doing other work in the radio room as it gives me time and provides some level of entertainment as well. Life was great at the VT location since the kitchen was right next to the radio room, and there was a bathroom just beyond that. Crank the volume when leaving the room, nothing missed.

Of course, break-in with the right crowd really can't be beat. Friday nights come to mind. We all have an ego and love to talk, or we'd be collecting stamps. Seems avoiding the ones who can't regulate themselves is what it gets down to. No easy answer there.

[W2DU]

As I mentioned concerning the operation on 3999 KHz, everyone used VOX, and rarely was there any doubling. The activity was like conversations at a dinner table. Someone starts a topic and those with a comment on that topic adds it and stops talking, and then someone else adds his comment. A newcomer who wants to insert a comment simply drops his call in after the last commenter stops talking, and so it goes--no roundtable, and no "I can't remember whom I should turn it to." That group was fun to operate with, no matter how many were involved. If one made a list of all the calls dropped in he would be surprised at the number. When anyone dropped out he'd simply say "W2DU out", or "W2DU goombye," thus satisfying the FCC regs. And as I said earlier, we stopped for ID every ten minutes--no calls used except to join, ID every ten minutes, and then when leaving the group.

I'd suggest that those who can operate with VOX should give this method a try--you might like it--I sure did.

Walt, W2DU

[K3ZS]

Being mainly a listener, not much of a talker, I get uncomfortable in a large roundtable.   I would rather just have a one to one QSO.   I have had a QSO hijacked, a couple of guys break in.    They know one another really well and start talking among themselves while the first two who started out on the frequency are ignored.    This hasn't happened a lot, but when it has, it was on 3885 or one of the "AM window" frequencies.    The 6 minute rule sounds good to me, I would feel more welcome in a roundtable where everyone is familiar with one another.

[W2INR]

Geez

It is pretty sad when we have to explain how to be courteous and respectful of others and not be self centered and rude in a QSO. 

It really is the  ME ME ME I I I mentality, and the whole I am entitled BS - - -  unfortunately it isn't limited to our hobby or QSO's.

What I find interesting is the average ham is over 50, you would think we would know better.

Good Job T

G

[KA1ZGC]

What I find interesting is the average ham is over 50, you would think we would know better.

Speak for yourself, white man! 

I'm under 40, so I guess my excuse can be that I don't know any better. 

This is why I usually get on and call CQ these days rather than break into a group, because I've been guilty of wrecking QSOs. Never once did it on purpose (or realized I was even doing it until I already had), always felt like an ass afterwards, but I do think everyone does it inadvertently at least once in their lives. Some of us do have really bad habits, though.

Bad habits can be broken, and I've been trying to change a few of mine, lest they be changed forcefully.

Good thread, guys.

[K1JJ]

Now we're getting to the heart of things.

It's probably hard to believe, but many of us are heavily affected by the negative social mood the world is experiencing.  This is the cause of why many of our friends are dropping out of radio (at least for a while) and what often causes conflicts on the air.

This major pattern goes from one extreme social mood to the other - and one extreme is what sets up the move to the other side.  We went from a "feel-good" mood for a series of decades to the opposite in less than a year. This can shake up a lot of people. On a macro scale, symptoms include witch hunts, finger pointing, political bickering and wars. I often have to monitor my own mood to catch it from falling into the depressed state.  So far so good...   Don't get caught up in it - you have a choice.

I think it's good to P&M once in a while about our own operating habits and how they can be improved. HUZman and I talk about ours' all the time after we hold court on ssb in the 75M DX window. We've made some big improvements in our operations and it shows as bigger pileups, it's smoother and more fun with less conflicts.

Like Thom discussed about himself, there was a time back in the 90's when I, too, had some bad operating habits.  I think the classic example was when I hadn't been on the air for a few months cuz I was working on my towers day and night. I broke into a large QSO and Willie/DUQ asked me, "Tom, where ya been?!  Tell us all about the tower project!"  I know he meant well, but it was the worst bait I coulda  taken. I just assumed EVERYONE wanted to hear about it...   After an old buzzard transmission of about 7 minutes, I unkeyed and realized not many really cud give a hoot. That taught me a good lesson to comment more on what others are saying rather than what I had to say.  We ALL have room for improvement.

Anyway, again, it's good to periodically think about our operations as AMers in general. Also, watch how others react to what was said each time. If the QSO starts getting boring, it's time to shift gears.

BTW, Walt, there was a time when many of us tried VOX on AM. What a scream!  Big relays clacking, anti-trips popping on and off - we tried, but decided it was just too distracting, though a great idea in theory.  It works FB with riceboxes, but maybe 60% run old rigs that require a big effort to pull off. Maybe others have comments on this.

I really have no complaints about what I hear on AM, really. All in all, the drive-by-shootings and knivings are so rare today. It's really a tranquil place compared to other parts of the band. I just thought that the 6-minute guideline could be a good place to start in improving what is already a good operation most of the time. If anything, it may help some of us to discover why we are having problems in large QSOs. I wish someone had grabbed ME by the collar and shoved these guildelines in my face 30 years ago...

T

[K1JJ]

* ln a Nutshell -  The Six Minute Guideline - Dynamic Roundtables:

A plan is better than no plan when things start falling apart. The next time you're in a LARGE Roundtable that gets confused and guys start dropping out due to all the reasons we've discussed already, YOU be the one to take the bull by the horns:

Example:

"OK, guys, let's see if we can pull this QSO back together.   K2UX, you turn it to W2INR -  W2INR you turn it to N3WWL - N3WWL you turn it to K1KW.." (and so on.)

"Since there's four guys in here, let's keep our transmissions down to 2 minutes max -   OK?  Go ahead K2UX."


That's it!  People love structure when they get lost and will probably respond well to bring the QSO back to life.

I notice Robert, W0VMC is a master at keeping good structure when a QSO gets real large.  Just cuz a QSO is large doesn't mean it needs to be abandoned.  It can be lots of fun IF everyone plays by the same rules... 


T

[W2DU]

I understand how uncomfortable it would be hearing relays klunking with VOX. On the other hand I would be VERY uncomfortable listening to another guy going on for six minutes. Six? I'd be happy with 30 sec, unless someone had a subject that was interesting to everyone, but I'd still like to keep each xmsn at 2 min or less. During a six-minute spiel one tends to forget the comments one would like to insert by the time that length of xmsn is finished.

Walt, W2DU

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Break-in with PTT and VOX are the same thing for the on-the-air presence. It's just a difference in the method of transmit activation. The group that meets many late afternoons/early evenings on 3733 kHz works break-in quite nicely. Sure there's some doubling now and again. So what? It's not like anyone comment by any one person is so important it can't be missed or repeated.

[WA1GFZ]

So my 3 second delay JS won't cut it on 3733. Guess I need to wire in a switch rather than using a socket strip switch.

[WD8BIL]

Break-in with PTT and VOX are the same thing for the on-the-air presence. It's just a difference in the method of transmit activation. The group that meets many late afternoons/early evenings on 3733 kHz works break-in quite nicely. Sure there's some doubling now and again. So what? It's not like anyone comment by any one person is so important it can't be missed or repeated

And If you ain't payin' attention when someone axes you a question it'll get answered for you!!