Check your LP Gas bill - Especially if you have Suburban

[WB2YGF]

Last August I got an unusually large (for us) $244 propane bill from Suburban Propane.  I figured it was just related to the price of oil.

OK, so this month I get a $77 bill from Suburban Propane for 1 year of rental for my small propane tank.  I had never been billed for the tank before, so I got ticked off and started shopping around.

Turns out, that the tank charge is not so unusual.  What WAS unusual was that I was charged $9.000/gallon for propane.
 
I called Suburban and they told me that their price to me is STILL $9.000/gallon today.  I asked about the price of oil going down since August but apparently my price is related to my "low usage", and includes stuff that other dealers charge “extra hidden fees” for.  The going price from Amerigas and Ferrellgas today is around $3.00 to $3.50 – nearly 1/3 the price.  Amerigas and Ferrellgas couldn't come up with any "extra fees" except transportation surcharge and haz mat, which Suburban also charges extra for.

If a gas station was charging 3 times the price of the competition it would be all over the news.  Not that they would because people know what the price should be. 

The media caught Suburban overcharging in Syracuse, but nothing like my overcharge.  (A whopping $3.25 (70c more) in the same month I paid $9.00)

http://www.9wsyr.com/content/news/real_deal/story/Suburban-Propane-prices-The-Real-Deal/K261dtM8gk20dDK7s3csDg.cspx

I am so ticked,  I sent the above info to WNBC TV

From Suburbans own FAQ:

Do propane prices change?
The market responds quickly to any situation that might affect supply and demand. Some examples are unexpectedly cold or warm weather, supply interruptions or excess production. These changes may be reflected in the wholesale price we pay for the propane that is delivered to you, and consequently, in the prices you pay for such propane.

How are propane prices determined?
Propane and other heating fuels are traded on the commodities market, which goes up and down like the stock market. By far the biggest influence on these fluctuations is the cost of crude oil and natural gas, which are used to make propane.

Apparently, I am exempt from the commodities market, because my price has not dropped by even .001 cent, even though the price of oil is 2/3 less.

[k4kyv]

There are three propane companies here.  One is Suburban, one a local (or at least used to be) and another is an out-of-county outfit that sells at discount prices, but you have to purchase your own tank outright.

Suburban has traditionally been at least 30% higher than the most expensive of the other two in this area.  I paid about $2.40/gallon for a fill-up back in October from the other local company (the medium price one).  I'm sure Suburban would have charged well over $3/gallon for the same fill-up.

I don't understand why anyone would pay Suburban's price when everyone knows that they charge so much more than anybody else.  Yet, it is surprising how many of those red-topped Suburban propane tanks you see in this county.

[WB2YGF]

Suburban has traditionally been at least 30% higher than the most expensive of the other two in this area.  I paid about $2.40/gallon for a fill-up back in October from the other local company (the medium price one).  I'm sure Suburban would have charged well over $3/gallon for the same fill-up.

I don't understand why anyone would pay Suburban's price when everyone knows that they charge so much more than anybody else.  Yet, it is surprising how many of those red-topped Suburban propane tanks you see in this county.

30% higher is one thing but 300% higher???  We dumped Suburban once before for Agway Energy. Three years later, Suburban bought out Agway Energy.  At this rate, they will buy out everyone and there will be no choice.

[KF1Z]

Watch out for Amerigas!

They supposedly charge by usage....

Everyone they service is charged a different rate (except by mere coincidence) .

They did tell me once that if my usage was low, the price was higher AND they would charge me rent on the 300gal tank.

[WB2YGF]

Watch out for Amerigas!

They supposedly charge by usage....

Everyone they service is charged a different rate (except by mere coincidence) .

They did tell me once that if my usage was low, the price was higher AND they would charge me rent on the 300gal tank.

I understand and accept that I may get charged more as a low usage customer.  I made it quite clear what kind of usage I have for quotation purposes. In fact, I think it was the Amerigas FAQ that said the tank fee varied by region, size, and usage.

[W3SLK]

I used to have a big 100 gallon tank. My company, Heller Gas, said that due to 9/11 there were higher charges on the bigger tanks. They replaced my big tank with two twin smaller tanks. I paid my highest bill just recently ($130), so I'm kind of curious what the next bill holds instore. When I bought my first house, Suburban dropped me like a bad habit citing they wanted a higher usage customer. As far as I'm concerned, Suburban can kiss my big fat bohunkous!

[WA1GFZ]

I'd tell them to take the prong end of their tank and put it where the 50c5 goes and switch to electric..

[k3zrf]

Here in PA if you own your tanks Ferrellgas is around $1.47...but you have to own your tanks otherwise it's about $3.44!

[N0WVA]

Try like hell to find a tank and buy it outright! This gives you the power to shop around for the cheapest price. If you have a tank owned buy the gas company they can screw with you and you cant do anything about it. Also, gettine a regulator is harder than yuo would think. Evidently, they are only sold to "qualified" individuals. Get one off the internet if you know how to hook it up. Im sick of people telling me I cant do this, that , or the other.

[WB2YGF]

Here in PA if you own your tanks Ferrellgas is around $1.47...but you have to own your tanks otherwise it's about $3.44!

Suburban said if I had my own tank, they would drop the fee to $50/year.  This would be to cover the cost of "inspecting" my tank.

When I had a major addition done 15 years ago, I had Suburban run new lines.  They did a horrible job and charged a fortune.  My plumber said he would have done the job for a fraction of the price, and would have done it right.  I did get some of my money back after I complained.

3 years ago I got a new stove.  The original Suburban installation was not compatible and I needed the stove that weekend for Thanksgiving.  I called Agway Energy and they said I had to wait 2 weeks since it was not an emergency.  I called my plumber and he came over immediately and fixed Suburbans mess.

[N0WVA]

Here in PA if you own your tanks Ferrellgas is around $1.47...but you have to own your tanks otherwise it's about $3.44!

Suburban said if I had my own tank, they would drop the fee to $50/year.  This would be to cover the cost of "inspecting" my tank.

Tell them , "no fee or I go somewhere else".

What they really hate is when you tell them you are converting to an outdoor wood burner and can get all the free wood yuo want from the local tree trimmers. All of a sudden, they are irrelevent.

[WA1GFZ]

at that price electric would be cheaper. About $500 and a little sweat to change over.

[WB2YGF]

at that price electric would be cheaper. About $500 and a little sweat to change over.

Ferrellgas only charges $12/year for the tank.  At that rate, my total propane bill for the year for my dryer and stove/double oven should drop from $316 to about $116/year.  I don't think electric would be any cheaper than that.  Unfortunately, they want $120 for installation and pressure test.  I am trying to get them to waive that charge.  Of course Suburban is going to hit me with a $75 transport fee for the old tank. 

[N0WVA]

at that price electric would be cheaper. About $500 and a little sweat to change over.

Ferrellgas only charges $12/year for the tank.  At that rate, my total propane bill for the year for my dryer and stove/double oven should drop from $316 to about $116/year.  I don't think electric would be any cheaper than that.  Unfortunately, they want $120 for installation and pressure test.  I am trying to get them to waive that charge.  Of course Suburban is going to hit me with a $75 transport fee for the old tank. 

Wow, you must not be heating with propane. I pay around a thou per winter to heat with that stuff. But I am currently installing a wood burner in the garage. Just takes a minute to load it up a couple times a day. The wood will be free.

[WB2YGF]

Wow, you must not be heating with propane. I pay around a thou per winter to heat with that stuff. But I am currently installing a wood burner in the garage. Just takes a minute to load it up a couple times a day. The wood will be free.

$1000 for the winter is pretty cheap.  I use an average of 60 gallons of oil per month for heat and hot water.  The most I paid was $3.50/gallon which would be a rate of $2,500/year.  Now that oil is down to $1.99 that would be $1,440/year.  Seems like the price of oil is much more volatile than propane. (Not counting the ridiculous $9.00/gallon Suburban charged me.)

[k4kyv]

I used to have a big 100 gallon tank. My company, Heller Gas, said that due to 9/11 there were higher charges on the bigger tanks.

It's amazing the things "9-11" is used as an excuse for.   What does the size of your gas tank and what the gas co. charges you to re-fill it have to do with 9-11?

[W1ATR]

Jeezus, 9 bucks a gal!! They're effin crazy, but this is NOT at all uncommon for that company. LP suppliers have been doing this crap forever. When you call in to set up a new account, they'll sign you up at a low rate just to get your name on the contract and your gas will be cheap the first year. they rely on people not looking too closely at the bills and just mailing a check every fill up, and with every fill, the price will rise a little till either you notice it, and quit, or call and scream. Usually the screaming part will get you nowhere anyhow.

Your definitely better off owning your tank in the first place. Right now, cost on a 120gal asme tank is around 6 bills and a 60gal is in the 400 range, so it's expensive to setup, as you also incur the cost of the regs (about 50 bucks for a large twin stage) and you also assume the responsibility of maintaining that tank as well,(Not a big deal to roll on some gloss white Rustoleum every 4-5 years.), But, you have the most important thing on your side now, and that's the ability to shop around for the cheapest supplier, and they DO change they're prices like the weather changes in NE.

Most of the larger gas companies around here get between 50 and 80 a year tank lease and your per gal price is directly affected by your usage. A person running a set of gas logs or a cooking stove that's using 60 gallons a season can expect an average of 2-3 dollars per gallon above current wholesale. A customer pulling 300 gallons a month running a pool heater or whole house heat/HW/cooking/dryer etc..., will only pay maybe 20-30 cents above cost which is a reasonable expectation, but some companies get totally out of hand and can run 5 dollars or more over cost which is just plain old price gouging. Hocon comes to mind for this type of thing and I've rolled a LOT of they're tanks to the side over the years to install tanks bought from me outright and the main reason is always the same, they're pricing to get they're foot in the door is always low for the first half of a two year contract, THEN it gets out of hand the second year as they attempt to recover money from the first year.

ALSO watch your bills for the bullshit taxes like transport fees and hazmat fee's. These extras are added on the the bill and they will argue you tooth and nail that they are government mandated delivery fees and it's absolute bologna. I ask that they show me WHERE in the state statutes I MYSELF can find these regulations because I KNOW they do not exist and they're a bunch of hooey. One a side note, different states have different regulations, so do your homework and ask the att. generals office before calling an LP supplier out on this.

My advise, from the business, is to stick with the small guys. Stick with the guys that come recommended from friends and ask certain questions, like after hours emergency service, how many delivery trucks they have, do they have service techs, or just installers, and are these guys licensed properly, and so forth. Finding a good supplier is a crap shoot and if they throw a 2 year contract in your face, tell them your a little uneasy with a small company and would like a 1 year just to test them out. Remember, THEY need you alot more than YOU need them and they know this. Stay away from the big guns. They have the backing to be able to afford to lose you, and will treat you as such.

73 

[WA1GFZ]

I still prefer oil myself. My oil co gets a few more cents than the cheapest guy but when I get in a jam they show up within a few hours. I can usually fix things myself but for example last year the furnace was surging and the line needed to be blown out. Being a hack I was ready to replace the pump.
My Boss lives one street over from that house that blew up in Granby a few weeks back. Not ready to burn gas here.

[WB2RJR]

This sounds like a real screw job.

2 years ago when I built my house up here in Wyoming they came out and put in a 1000 gal tank. I wanted something that would last the whole winter in case the roads were bad.  No charge for that or running the line to the house.

No rental on the tank and no delivery fees.

They came out and filled it up in September and it was $2.50/gal. The bill was$1220 and that was for 11 months of use.

Company is Rocky Mountain Propane.

73

Marty WB2RJR

[Ed W1XAW]

I am paying about $3.759 in northern Maine for one of the bigger outfits (near Kingfield) according to a fairly recent bill.   The local company was charging $3.12 when I called but changing tanks in the mid-winter is not a simple matter and I'm pretty sure the present company won't credit us with the gas in the tank if we switch.   It's hard to run it down to nothing as we are only there on weekends so I'm paying the bigger company its price.   Like so many other things today, I think they will try to take us for everything they can in the next gas hike.   I may install some other form of heat at some point as the gas furnace is noisy.   Ed

[W3SLK]

Don said:

It's amazing the things "9-11" is used as an excuse for.   What does the size of your gas tank and what the gas co. charges you to re-fill it have to do with 9-11?

Jared hit it Don, HAZMAT fee. If I remember, they wanted about an $200/yr. to keep the big tank. But they down shifted me to a smaller capacity and the lowest I reached was 35% so that wasn't too bad. They filled the two smaller tanks and refunded me the difference what I had in the big tank. With the price of energy on the decline, I'm curious to see if that bill goes down.

[k4kyv]

I still prefer oil myself. My oil co gets a few more cents than the cheapest guy but when I get in a jam they show up within a few hours. I can usually fix things myself but for example last year the furnace was surging and the line needed to be blown out. Being a hack I was ready to replace the pump.
My Boss lives one street over from that house that blew up in Granby a few weeks back. Not ready to burn gas here.

I heated part of the  house with kerosene until about 10  years ago when a $5 part on my $750 vented heater with outside tank crapped out, and I found the part to be "discontinued" by the manufacturer and unavailable anywhere as aftermarket, because, to quote the customer service rep at the company, "that heater was 15 years old" (as if a brand new one would be expected to need a replacement part). I wouldn't risk buying a new heater, which would have to have been shipped from out of state because they don't sell them  here any more, and there was only one oil company that still did home delivery and they were erratic and grumpy about it.  They wanted to deliver only to the Quick Stop markets that re-sell it gallon at a time.

We already had propane to heat part of the house since about 1990. I found that propane and kerosene were pretty much on par $$$/gallon, but a gallon of kerosene has substantially more BTU's  than a gallon of propane.

I'm not sure if there is any difference between kerosene and "heating oil" that is widely used in the northeast US and in Canada.

But the price of kerosene probably sucked when gasoline was $4/gallon and diesel (almost the same thing as kerosene) was running up to $5/gallon here locally.

I recall an older kerosene heater we had that would run OK on diesel, but the newer expensive one cautioned not to use it, claiming it would gum up the works.

A few years ago they started hitting kerosene with federal road tax because they were afraid that truckers would use it in their tractor trailer rigs to avoid the tax, even though #1 grade kerosene without road tax was already more expensive than diesel at the truck-stop pump.  You had to save all your heating oil receipts over the year and file for a refund when you did your income tax return.  You could purchase untaxed kerosene, but it had red dye in it that will either gum up kerosene heaters, or mask the discoloration that would indicate cheaper low-quality kerosene that might be sold as "#1 crystal-clear".