80 year old electrical distribution panel still in daily use

[N3DRB The Derb]

This picture was taken by Bruno Calamia, a Swiss inspector of electrical installations with a habit of taking a digital camera on his rounds. It shows a marble distribution panel that belongs probably in a museum, but is in service since more than 80 years and still passes inspection.


don't make em like they used to.

[VO1GXG]

That must go hand in hand with pipe and caster. I think thats what it is called , the old system of using non-insulated wire passed though floor boards using porcelain tubes and stand offs.

[W3SLK]

We have some of that old Westinghouse distribution stuff here along with an Edison generator from 1909! I told the upper managent that stuff like that needs to get to a museum. The Techron syncronizer, (which resembles a grandfather clock) needs to go down in my shack.

[Carl WA1KPD]

That must go hand in hand with pipe and caster.

"Knob and tube" south of the border

73

Carl WA1KPD

[AJ1G]

if you want to see some scary home construction stuff, check out the feature on the "This Old House" website titled something like "Home Inspection Nightmares".  Some some really hair raising stuff on there, some of it would be very funny if the potential consequences weren't so dangerous!  All of the images were submitted by home inspectors from actual inspections.

[Ed-VA3ES]

That must go hand in hand with pipe and caster. 

  "Knob and tube" south of the border
73   Carl WA1KPD       

Knob & Tube in the Rest of Canada.   I suspect that  Newfoundlanders still use their own unique terminology.

[k4kyv]

Knob and tube, if done right, is probably safer than much of to-day's modern construction.  The wire is maintained under tension, sometimes with turnbuckles, so even if the insulation flakes off with age, the wires are immobile and still separated by air dielectric, kind of like open wire antenna feeders.  The main problem is that the wire may be too small for the load, since much of this construction was done in the days when the load on a circuit was typically a couple of light bulbs and maybe a small appliance like a radio or electric fan.

Something I  have a problem with, yet is mandated by many local electrical codes, is the use of wire nuts.  I have seen many connections where the wires were just barely touching or were loosely twisted together, with a wire nut loosely twisted over the splice.  This is asking for a fire, since loosely connected wires may arc, or the resistance at the connection may be high, both of which are far more dangerous than a dead short on a properly fused line.  The wires should be firmly twisted together with the wire nut, but not to the point where the threads strip or the wire begins to break.  I still think it is a good idea to pre-twist and solder the wires before applying a wire nut, but I have been told that many local codes prohibit the soldering of splices and connections in house wiring.  I have never been able to figure that one out.

In this house, they used the old style romex with what looks like asphalt or tar impregnated cloth insulation over rubber covered wire.  The insulation has become very brittle with age, and sometimes when the wire is disturbed the insulation cracks and falls off.  I would replace it all, but that would require extensively tearing out perfectly good walls and ceilings to gain access.  I feel it is still safe enough, if left undisturbed, and whenever I have to replace a switch or fixture, I am extremely careful not to flex the old wire any more than necessary.  One advantage of modern plastic coated romex is that it should last for hundreds of years and not deteriorate if there are no flaky wire-nut connections.  I have seen wire nut connections that had got so hot that the plastic insulation near the splice had begun to melt!

All the connections in this house were soldered and then wrapped with some kind of rubber tape that actually fused together into a solid blob with time, and that was covered with cloth friction tape.  It is very difficult to remove, and the wire underneath is firmly soldered, so I am not worried about the splices.  I am impressed by the expertise of the electricians who did the original wiring back in the Depression era, but I wish they  had stuck with knob-and-tube, which would now be much safer than that flaking tar/cloth stuff.

The light switches were originally push-button, the kind with a ceramic porcelain case and you push the white button to turn the light on, and the black one to turn the light off.  Most had been replaced with (very cheaply made) toggle switches.  Back in the 80's I started collecting old style push button switches until I had accumulated enough of the same style as the originals (they come in a wide variety of sizes, shapes and styles), to replace all the toggle switches and convert back to 100% pushbutton.  I think they have more class than toggles, anyway.

I have been told that in some localities the electrical code mandates that when an old house is sold, all the pushbutton switches must be replaced with modern ones before the house can pass inspection for electrical service to be restored for the new owners.  This is something else that makes absolutely no sense, since the older switches are heavier duty and more durable than what you can buy now.  Someone I know changed out all his switches with the cheapest modern ones he could find, saved the old ones, and after the inspection the new owner re-installed all the original switches.  I'm sure this insanity has caused many of the old switches, perfectly functioning after almost a century, to be thrown away.

Someone told me that the reason for prohibiting the old switches is because the terminals are on the face of the switch body instead of on the sides or back, and they are afraid someone might touch the exposed terminals if the face plate is taken off and the paper cover has deteriorated with age. That seems pretty far-fetched to me, and if true, could hardly be more of a non-issue in terms of real safety.

If anyone does decide to change out their old pushbutton switches, please don't throw them away.  Save them and send 'em to me for spares, since the only ones you can buy new these days are Chinese/Taiwanese reproductions that I have found not to be worth a shit, even though they are not cheap.

[kb3ouk]

i've seen wire nuts that were just like what you said, they were loose and got hot and melted. it melted most of the top off of the old i saw.
shelby kb3ouk

[Ed/KB1HYS]

My house has that asphaltum inmpregnated line as well. Soldered connections and either dipped in something or wrapped with that fusing tape.  The only issue i can think of is that it is only a two wire system and I can't ground anything.  There are numberous outlets in the house with modern grounded plugs, but the grounds are not connected.  The new work has the grounds in place, but I am not going to tear the place apart to run ground lines all over either.

It will probably drive someone nuts, but hopefully that will be long after me.

[KB2WIG]

The splices in a wire nutted connection are suposed to be made via twisting the conductiors together before the 'nuts are applied. Poor workmanship will find a way.....
klc

[k4kyv]

I have heard it  both ways: that (1) you should twist the wires before screwing on the wire nuts, and that (2) both conductors should be laid parallel to each other, and then the nuts screwed on so that the wire nuts do the twisting.  I have tried it both ways, and if done carefully, you can achieve a good tight twisted connection by screwing the nuts over untwisted conductors, but I prefer to pre-twist the wires; that way you know for sure they are firmly connected.  If the wire nut doesn't grab the untwisted wires just right, it may slip and you end up with no twist at all, but you can't tell for sure by looking at it.

I have a copy of the 1940 NEC and it has numerous illustrations of approved methods of splicing conductors before wire nuts were ever thought of.

[N3DRB The Derb]

I dont like anything not soldered or brazed, I dont care what it is house wiring or radios. If I could I'd have every connection in my house re done.
 
I am going to have all new wiring put in for my Mauls an any other hi current devices like my wifes glass bedmaking kiln. just surface mount with metal conduit and metal boxes with 20 amp outlets.

My instructions to the guys are going to be: I have here 2 Mauls used to Squish SLopbukits.

They can draw 20 A@ 120VAC peak each. I want them to both be able to go full strap on command and be totally uneffected by RF, and while you're here anyways, go through the rest of the service entrance and find  whatever sucks and fix it so it doe'snt suck. Starting with a new service entrance ground system that ties back to my radio system I put in.

 This all also for the air conditioner and window for next summer, so hot days dont bother me.

[N0WEK]

I've got a beautiful old slate fuse panel here, complete with two pole knife switches and fuses for both the neutral and hot lines. After they decided that fusing the neutral lines was a bad idea they installed Buss shorting "fuses", sort of an official penny in the neutral line fuse holders.

I'm planning to install it in the shack to control lights and such and just use a box of 24 volt relays to switch the 120 and 240 to keep it safe. If the knife switches arc a little on make and break, all the better! Maybe I'll feed the 24 volts to the panel with knob and tube, I saved some of the insulators when I rewired the 2nd floor and attic. I wish now I'd saved more of the old wire. The stuff that I pulled out of the walls was in great shape.

It's to nice to scrap and too big for a paper weight.

It'll look cool with all the boat anchor radios.

[John K5PRO]

When I was wiring my new garage/workshop a year ago, I paid an electrician to get the permit, and tell me what to do, and I did the hard work. The inspector was a flunky electrician himself, that my electrican friend knew what his 'buttons' were. A big one was to have the ground/ufer in plain sight. It came up through the slab to a point below the breaker panel, and I had to cut a square hole in the finished drywall so that he could inspect it, even after he had already done so in the rough inspection. It was so that the ground could be inspected years from now. What a croc. I have a copy of the 2006 NEC and this wasn't included.

So, I had one box with 3 switches, two of them two way. There was a mass of wiring in there, and a LOT of grounds to twist. So I used one of those copper split nut things that I got some Lowes. Stick all of the bare copper grounds in it, and torque on the nut, voila.

The inspector noted this 'violation' of his code, and required me to remove the nut and use daisy chained green wire nuts! Talk about idiots....

On another aspect:
Attached is a photo I took last month in Costa Rica, of distribution to a store. Under the pole transformer, are two dial-type Radio Shack timers, which operate a string of overhead holiday lights. If you look carefully, can see the wires from these running up to the secondary of the transformer.

Second one is the other end of the drop, the 'weather head'. Note the 'fused' disconnect knife switch, the cover was gone, and one fuse is there, but the green circuit has a wrap of stranded copper wire instead of fuse. Not sure if the green is neutral or ground or what. 

Some homes and businesses had the step down transformer sitting there in a yard, or on the roof, without having any fence, or box around the high side bushings.

With this stuff, I can see room for electrical codes, not to nit pick things like the color of wire nuts...

[N2udf]

I did see a classic when going to put a new service in a friends new(old) house.It was a main disconnect made from a pullchain light fixture with a 30amp fuse in it(110v service).

[N3DRB The Derb]

codes serve a good purpose, but like everything else associated with government, they tend to be misused.  I bet I've got a lot of hell loose inside that main breaker box. I hired my former boss to finish the place (garage) out, and while he did a good job and had a hell of a work ethic, I dont know if he cut any corners with the wiring he put in.

I'm betting he did. I'll get it sorted out.

re: teh splitnut grounding - thats what I used for my ground system and torch soldered em to boot. I just copped a deal offa ebay for some 12" long by 6" wide copper bussbar drilled for 1/4" S.S. nutz & boltz. Shit is HEAVY.  

Where my ground connection enters the house it is 4 #6's nutted & soldered together and broken out on either side back to each #6. I have a LONG connection back to the first 10'ft ground rod......about 1 ft....  and 2ft to the next 2. Add in 1 ft from the PVC hole to the gear, and I can say my crap is DC grounded anyway.

 the first thing I do when I get back home is mount these copper buss bars up and connect all the wiring coming in the hole to them. Then feed gear grounds from these up to each bench, one for the operating bench, and one for the repair bench. Like 4 or 5 1/2" copper braids.  and all at 5am in the morning before it gets too hot in there to work.....

BTW I did get the new Frontier Engineering plate choke installed into Maul #1, looks really good. Now I have to make the parasitic suppressors for the 572B's, 8 of em.

[AB3L]

I have been told that in some localities the electrical code mandates that when an old house is sold, all the pushbutton switches must be replaced with modern ones before the house can pass inspection for electrical service to be restored for the new owners.  This is something else that makes absolutely no sense, since the older switches are heavier duty and more durable than what you can buy now.  Someone I know changed out all his switches with the cheapest modern ones he could find, saved the old ones, and after the inspection the new owner re-installed all the original switches.  I'm sure this insanity has caused many of the old switches, perfectly functioning after almost a century, to be thrown away.

When I did residential electrical work I remember finding old switches with sealed canisters in them as contact points. When you shook them you could feel the heavy slogging of a liquid inside. As I remember it was mercury.
Perhaps the concern is more of a health issue? Back then I never thought much about it. Today with the home inspection racket in full swing, the paranoia of some issues about old items in homes comes to the forefront.

[The Slab Bacon]

Perhaps the concern is more of a health issue? Back then I never thought much about it. Today with the home inspection racket in full swing, the paranoia of some issues about old items in homes comes to the forefront.

Boy!! That says more than a mouthfull!! That reminds me of my goofball neighbors. They have gas forced hot air heat and central A/C, but absolutely wont use it. They use a window unit in every room and electric space heaters in every room in the winter. They wont use their central heat / AC because they are scared shitless that the basement floor tile may have asbestos in it!! If they got up off of their asses and cleaned the basement, and applied a coat of floor sealer it would no longer be an issue even if it has asbestos in it!! They dont want to spend the money to have it tested, so they are spending many times more with the local electric company to avoid it. I'm sure glad I dont have to pay their utility bills!!

Many times home inspections stir up paranoia and superstitions in many homeowners that arent smart enough to understand what is really going on. It sort of looks like a grand opportunity for unscrupulous home improvement contractors to take advantage of lesser educated homeowners!!

                                                           The Slab Bacon

[K3ZS]

A few years ago I found a few mercury switches for sale, they must have been left over from the 50's.    I bought them to use with some outdoor flood lights, the current draw was always wearing out regular switches.    Best ones I ever had, I wish I could get more of them.    I also have a mercury dual thermostat for the heatpump/ oil heat combination.    It replaced an electronic thermostat that was suppose to be fail-safe,  after a few winter weekend trips I came home to find it failed at 0 degrees (not 72).

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

The good stuff lasts forever! A few years back they (local gov't agency) decided to "restore" our old building due to its historical architecture, for tourists to view. Part of that restoration involved re-wiring all 6 floors. Rather than leaving the old slate and copper panels in place and disconnecting the wiring, they had them all ripped out. I discovered it when I left work one night late and saw a glint of copper out of the corner of my eye. Hauled all of them out of the dumpster and back up onto the loading dock (no small feat!), then into my truck. Talked to one of the contractors the next day, he said there were two more coming out and he'd hold them for me, which he did. Ended up with 10 or so. Unfortunately, 2 were damaged.

Perfect for the heavy-duty AM phasing and switching system, or the old buzzard shack of yore. Under the years of black crud, they're like new.

They make excellent wedding, graduation, and baby shower gifts.   

[N3DRB The Derb]

(James Brown voice) THOSE ARE BAD BROTHA! SHO NUFF THOSE BE BAD!

like Joe Cro would say, I got MAJOR WOOD!

Todd, can you hold one or 2 of them for me? Maybe a smaller one if they are sized different from each other? ( any copies of panel 6? ) I wanna put some of those gray color 4" or 5" 1920's surface mount Weston thermocouple RF ammeters in one so I can monitor my munky swing in my feeders, run open wire up to em and then out the shack wall.    I' be the koolest thing since dry ice.

I'd make a special trip to come get em. (NEAR-fest?) clean em up nice and purty like new.

(beg beg, whine like a dog, oh please, I listen to you ALL the time....)

I'm a shameless MF.....

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

That last one (pic #6) was taken right after I hosed one of them down and polished it a bit with some 4 -aught steel wool to bring up the shine. They look fine without polishing.

I have at least one duplicate, and I think it may be like that one. They are going in the first load to NC in the next week, which will provide an opportunity for a good accounting.

Be warned: they are H-E-A-V-Y, even the smallest ones. Thick copper on thick slate. Once I go through them, I'll set one aside for you whilst figuring out what to do with the rest. The plan is to use a couple, maybe display one on the living room wall as Industrial Art. Bet the XYL will be all in favor of that.....

Those are some pissah knife switches for the balanced line, OM. They'll handle whatever you can throw at 'em. 

[John K5PRO]

Todd
Those are beautiful panels. You scored big time.

Check out this one, photo taken last summer at Tommy Bolak's private electromechancial museum in Farmington, NM, near Four Corners (UT,NM,AZ,CO). He bought out entire power houses from old mines and factories. Also, big transmitters (KOB's RCA 50E), and more. He has it rigged so that to turn on the lights in one of his many buildings, he uses a series of knife switches on one of these panels. Very impressive.

[k4kyv]

I had one box with 3 switches, two of them two way. There was a mass of wiring in there, and a LOT of grounds to twist. So I used one of those copper split nut things that I got some Lowes. Stick all of the bare copper grounds in it, and torque on the nut, voila.

The inspector noted this 'violation' of his code, and required me to remove the nut and use daisy chained green wire nuts! Talk about idiots....

I'd wait till all the inspections were passed, done and over with, then remove the wire nut JS and re-install the copper split nut.

[N3DRB The Derb]

ok Todd good deal.  

I got a guest bedroom you welcome to stay overnite in ifn ya want. if you cant get to them in the truck or just dont wanna be bothered with it now, I'll come down to see ya in NC when U get settled and give the all clear.

thanks, brotha.