Getting to Know You

[W2DU]

Hello Ellen,

I've just been reviewing some of your posts that appear on the QSO list. Man, what an amazing and impressive lady you are! You're really a full-fledged hands-on ham, with skills and knowledge of our hobby that some of our male colleagues lack.

From my observations it appears that we have a least two common bonds: First, we were both licensed at age 14, and second, we're both musicians; you on guitar and bass, and I on trumpet and upright bass. However, considering the difference in our ages, our music styles are different, yours being more contemporary, mine is jazz and standards from the 20s through the 40s. My gigs were more with big bands, up to 17 musicians, but some with small jazz groups, 3 to 5 musicians.

You're too young to know of the Alvino Rey big band, of the late 30s and early 40s, one of the top bands of that era. In later years his band backed the King Sisters on the King Family TV show. I had the privilege of playing trumpet in his Navy band during WW2.

My Dad was W8YNG, and my three sons are also hams, Bill, W2WM, (ex WA2ETP, 5A4TY, and AG2B; Rick, W8KHK (my original call in 1933), ex WB2HKX and WB4GNR; and John, K4JRM. My daughter Sue used to be KC4UBZ, but she let her license lapse. Bill operated as 5A4TY from Wheelus Air Base, Tripoli, Libya during his stint with the Air Force duing the Vietnam war. Rick was also in the Air Force, operating from Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Tucson, AR at the same time. We also had three-way QSOs on 15m every Sat AM during that time. Bill, Rick and I are AMers, but I see that you have already had QSOs with Rick on this QSO venue.

Jean and I live in Florida during the Winter, and Michigan during the Summer. I have an SSB rig here in Michigan (wash my mouth), but both AM and SSB in Florida. We won't be back in FL until November, so any further QSOs with you will also have to be on this venue.

Your turn now,

Walt, W2DU

PS--Forgot to ask--I observed that you are in a professional activity--would you mind telling us what that profession venue is?

[AF9J]

Hi Walt,

Thanks for your nice comments.    I'm a 44 year old Gen Xer.   Lessee - professionally, I work for a company as both a supervisor and QA Engineer in a QA department (I have 2 degrees in Engineering - Nuclear [a VERY dead field at the present time], and Manufacturing Engineering).  I've been licensed for 30 years, and an Extra for the past 14 years (the 6 credits worth of college coursework in electronics came in handy, when I upgraded my Amateur licnense).

Musicwise - hmmm where do I start?  OK- as a bit of an amateur musicologist, I know who Alvino Rey is (he did some of the very first recorded wah wah sounds for guitar, way back when).   I do have formal training in music.  I was trained on brass instruments (the Baritone Euphonium was my instrument), and played in Symphonic/Concert band from 6th grade until my Sophomore year of college. I also played valve trombone (which sounds kind of nasal in a way) in both marching band (my high school marching band marched for a Green Bay Packers halftime show, and at the 1982 World's Fair), and the college jazz band.

I've been playing guitar since 1979.  I actually come from a family of guitarists.  My grandfather played guitar in Big Bands in the 30s-50s, and was an acoustic guitar luthier (he made me my first guitar when I was 6, although at that age, I had no desire to do more than go chinga chinga chinga on it).  One of my uncles plays guitar (mainly rhythmn guitar - he's more into vocals nowadays; he has posession of a couple of the acoustics grampa made, and grampa's old Epiphone Emperor jazz box).   When I started getting heavily into guitar in college, I started to drift away from Symphonic music.  It's OK stuff, but I just wasn't my cup of tea.  I wanted to play something a bit more raucous.  BTW, it saddens me, that unlike other forms of music, virtually no symphonic musicians write their own music.  It's as though it's considered heresy to do so.  No, it seems as though, in symphonic music, if you want to play something new, you're supposed to commission somebody to write the piece.  As the symphonic musician, you're only supposed to perform/interpret the musical piece.  Luckily, jazz musicans don't work under that constraint.

Now where was I (sorry I got off on a tangent)?  Oh yeah, guitar.  After college, I played lead guitar (and sang vocals) semi-pro in heavy rock bands up into the 90s (one of the other guitarists on one of my bands was my boyfriend [until he pulled a little stunt that ended the band, and my dating him]).  I had a lot of fun playing in bands. I didn't make a ton of money doing it (but then again, I was in it for the love of the music), and it was no fun tearing down from gigs at 2:30 in the morning, but it was fun.  A few years ago, I hit some hard times, and in order to pay bills, had to sell some stuff.  As a result, I sold off my good ham gear (I've basically recovered from that), and all of my pro guitar gear (I'm still not recovered from that - for me to replace my Gibson Howard Roberts Fusion I, and my Mesa Boogie amps, would cost me thousands of dollars I don't have).  I'd love to play in a band again (especially since I do have some semi-decent gear gain), but that means playing in bar bands, with exposure to tons of cigarette smoke. I have asthma (I was diagnosed in 2003 - well, at least now I know why my singing voice would conk out by the 3rd set [a lack of breath]), and cigarette smoke and asthma do not mix well at all.  Also, I'm at that age, where nobody really wants to rock out anymore.  So, the only bands you can get into are oldies, classic rock, or blues bands.   I've been in bands like that in the past, and they weren't my cup of tea.  Throw in being a woman my age, and it's almost impossible at times to get in a decent rock band (it was hard enough as it was, when I was younger, convincing men I could play, much less play well).  Oh well.

Realtionshipwise - you're lucky!  You've been married for decades.  I wish I were married.  Call it the price of waiting too long for Mr. Right.  At my age, the old saying holds true - all of the good men are taken, and the only ones left are either creeps, or they're gay.   And I'm not going to do like my sister did, and marry some yutz, just because I don't want to be single.  Once again (as lame as it sounds), oh well! 

73,
Ellen - AF9J

P.S. - BTW, I forgot to mention, that there are a fair amount of members on this forum, who are musicians. 

[WA5VQM]

I probably shouldn't be but I am surprised how many hams are also musicians. I fall into that category as well. I got my novice at 12 (my 40 year ham aniversary is in July). Activity has ebbed and flowed over the years as distractions such as girls, guitars, life, career took hold.

My music genres are in the folk, folk-rock, and I guess you'd call it "classic rock" (I hate that term for some reason). I've played out off and on over the years. I always prefered to play more originals than covers, which made things a bit more difficult. My last rock performance was in a smoky bar in 2004. I was talked into doing it by some friends as I never really liked the smoky bar scene either. My last perfomance was an acoustic gig in a coffeehouse in 2005.

I may play live again, I may not. I enjoy it but also had trouble finding people who wanted to play for the love of music rather than a shot at "stardom". Also the sight of a 52 year old rocker is a bit weird.  So until Bob Dylan knocks on the door needing another guitar player, I'll be finishing up the mods on my Ranger and getting that BC-348 working... 

Mesa Boogie amps are indeed great.

73 Mark
 

[K3ZS]

You are never too old to be a rocker if you still have the spirit.    Look at Mick Jagger and his band.   I still have my 1964 Gibson Epiphone that helped pay my way through Penn State.   Being retired, it is tempting to sell it seeing what it is worth now, and buying more boatanchors.    I am still playing keyboards and my original instrument, the accordion.   I always get invited to St. Patrick day parties, put up with accordion jokes the rest of the year.

[ka3zlr]

Vely Muchly Folk for me to please...all Hollow Body...sold my amps and Hard Bodies years ago...a much nicer texture hollow state on any level...

an I'm Not Gay..just bald..LOL....with to many kids...

amongst the many..worken class fool...with a Friday off...Euu Raaaah.

[AF9J]

I've been noticing lately that there are a fair amount of bands that I used to listen to when I was younger that are reuniting.  40-something rockers.  Yeah!  So you have a 60s Epiphone Bob - cool, which one?  The Casino, Sheraton, one of the solidbodies?   I recently bought an Epiphone (sorry Steve, I know that being a Danny Gatton fanatic, you feel Telecasters rule, but I now I realize why in my almost 30 years of playing, I've never owned a regular Telecaster - too much twang for my tastes).  I just love Semi-hollowbodies - all of the kick of a solidbody, with the throatiness of a hollowbody:

http://epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=2&CollectionID=1

I've had P-90 equipped Gibsons in the past (a Les Paul Junior , and a Couple of Les Paul Specials), and they were OK, but I've usually been a humbucker  pickup girl.  But, P90 equipped guitars sound soooooo good with my present amp, and Orange Tiny Terror:

http://www.rocknrollvintage.com/buy-orange-tiny-terror-amps.htm

The setup kills at high gain settings.  

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[w4bfs]

old boogie amps rock ... modern ones are mostly Oriental junk ...be careful ... the best rocking amps are homebrewed from old pa stuff, if you can still find it ...i'd like to have a nickel for every screw i've turned on a fender amp ...73..  John

[W1QWT]

I always get invited to St. Patrick day parties, put up with accordion jokes the rest of the year.

AH yes Irish music is my other music love. I also like Bob Dylan/Arlo Gutherie type music. I have an Epiphone and while I have never played in a band I do sit in with some of my Irish buddies for a session and some craic.
I play a little tin whistle and I just started to learn the Highland Bagpipe. Now that's a difficult instrument!

Regards
Q, W1QWT

[K3ZS]

Ellen-It is a 1964 Crestwood Custom just like this except it is white:

http://www.guitarbroker.com/8741.jpg

I also have my first amp, Sears Silvertone with four 6L6's and two 12 inch.   My keyboards amp is a Crate.  Also have a Peavey with the 15" Black Widow speaker.

[W2DU]

Thanks Ellen, for the insightful story of your life as a musician. I can remember my first gig as a jazz musician as the only trumpet in a small band playing in a smokey bar when I was 14. I like beer now, but at that time I detested the smell of it and the cigar and cigarette smoke. Later on, as I played in larger bands, the locations and clientele improved, so it became fun. During my first year in college I formed and led two bands, one an eight piece, and somewhat later, one with 14 musicians. With those bands we played for proms at high schools all over Central Michigan.

About Alvino Rey, he was a consultant for Gibson in Kalamazoo. He designed the floor-mounted guitar (on casters) with pedal control of the string tensions. Each pedal was for a separate chord, major, minor, diminished, 7th, 9th, etc, with the pitch determined by the position of the steel, which went across all the strings at the same time. With that instrument he was able to produce some very unlike guitar sounds. Playing in his band was a real blast.

I forgot to mention that my daughter was also a ham, but she let her license lapse. Believe me, I gave her a thousand lashes with a wet noodle for that.

I was also privileged to have known two prominent YLs personally. One was the late Ethel Smith, K4LMB. She was General Manager of the QCWA for many years, but her career position was as a lab researcher with the US Naval Laboratory. The other was Ellen White, W1YL, a long-time staffer at the ARRL, and strong proponent for girls and women to become hams, especially in the YLRL group.

I spent four years with the FCC RID from 1940 to 1944. I wrote an article for QST about the RID operations in Hawaii during WW2 that appears in the January 2007 issue. You might find it interesting.

Enough for now,

Walt, W2DU

[W2DU]

Man, do I feel out of place among all you guitar-playing rockers! Your style is beyond my ken. I'm really old hat compared with you guys.

Attached are three pics of bands I led or played in. One is the band I formed in college in 1936 when I was 17. The second is the Alvino Rey band in which I played trumpet in 1944 while in the US Navy. The third is a concert band I played in, also while in the Navy. I was the concertmaster and soloist with this band that played weekly concerts on KWBU, Corpus Christi, Texas.

Walt, W2DU

[W2DU]

Two of the pics I mentioned in the previous post didn't come through, so I'm trying again.

Walt, W2DU

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

That's great stuff, Walt! Not unlike looking back at old shots of the Glenn Miller Orchestra and such. Thanks for sharing them.

Like other 'youngsters' here, I've played in a number of bands as well, from Rock bands to jazz bands, to 'city' orchestra bands performing outdoor summer concerts as a percussionist. It was very fortunate for me that my band director in Jr High and High School was into jazz and Big Band/Swing music. We took a number of field trips to see the likes of Stan Kenton, Woody Herman and his Thundering Herd and others. It opened my eyes to, and cemented my love for this kind of music.

When you're in Michigan Walt, you can easily tune in AM 740 CHWO in Toronto where such music, along with old time radio shows and some Rock 'moldy oldies' is the standard format. Thursday and Sunday nights feature Big Band and Swing music exclusively for several hours. Sinatra and other crooners are staples too, of course. Just add your favorite wooden tube radio to complete the experience.

[W1UJR]

Excellent photos Walt!!!!
Reminds me of the old hamfest photos where everyone was wearing a suit and tie.
Band leader at age 17? That's quite an accomplishment.

Todd mentioned 740 AM, a real treat, used to be my standard when I lived in Buffalo. Here on the coast of Maine we have a similar station, WJTO 730 AM, that plays oldies as well, sounds especially good through the old Zenith console.

I may have been born in 1964, but I really grown to love big band music, Kay Kyser is one of my favorites, Miller a close second. I understand that Kyser also made a number of films, then for some reason dropped out of the music scene. I find that genre most refreshing and upbeat, a sharp contrast to today's commercial radio.

In my waiting room, we have a rotating playlist of Glenn Miller, Kay Kyser, Artie Shaw, Tommy Dorsey, Les Brown and Benny Goodman. Funny thing is, people of all ages love it, and hardly a day goes by when someone does not ask if its the radio playing, and I have break the news its coming from our computer. Big band music wirelessly streamed to our Bose radio on the other side of the offices, talk about a juxtaposition of technology.  

Someone observed that many hams are musicians, very true.
Also noted that many are amateur astronomers, must have something to do with the mindset of being a ham.

Thanks for sharing OM!

[K3ZS]

Walt-

When I was a kid I my favorite listening was the big bands.    Especially Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman.   The Benny Goodman 1937 concert (Carnegie Hall I think)  is one of my favorite recordings.   I still like jazz and big band music.    There just wasn't any big bands around when the rockers came of age.    A few years back there was a swing revival.    I went to a Penn State concert where the new Benny Goodman band was followed by the Big Bad Voodoo Daddies, a recent swing group.    The college students were all on the floor swing dancing.     It must have been like that every weekend in the 40's.

[AF9J]

Ahhh, no biggie Walt.  I still like some jazz.  I had fun playing in jazz band (even if a valve trombone sounds snarky compared to a regular slide trombone). BTW, your bands (that you showed in the photos), sure looked cool!  Don't feel out of place, remember, you guys were the rockers for your time.  The heavy metal guitarist of your time, was Junior Barnard, who played most raucously, with Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys in the late 30s & early 40s.  And yes, I read your QST article last year.  Cool stuff!

As for your daughter letting herlicense lapse - that lamost happened with me when I was youg.  I got my Novice in Feb. 1978 at the age of 14 (in spite of a lack of interest, and some low level effort by my parents to discourage me from getting it).  I didn't get on the air for another 4 years.  My Jr. High and High School radio clubs were dead.  The local radio club I took my Nocie classes through, did no follow up on the newbs who got thier licenses (I think I'm one of the only ones from my Novice clas, who's licensed to this day).  Also, my parents believed that as a teenager, I shouldn't be spending frivoulous amounts of money on radio gear (read, it shouldn't cost more than a typical CB), which made it impossible for me to find gear that I could afford. 
They also believed that Amatuer radio was for "older people" ( a belief reinforced by my dad's exposure to smart mouthed kids on CB [one of his coworkers he carpooled with, was a CBer]). 

I almost didn't renew my Novice when I it came up for renewal in 1980.  Luckily my mom caught me throwing away the Form 610 (I told her, "why bother renewing my license, I have no gear, and have no idea, if I'll ever got on the air"), and persuaded me to renew my license (sayin that it wasn;t hurting me to have my Novice license).  I didn't get on the air, until the summer after I graduated from High School (in 1982), when I went behind my parents' baCks, and bought an HW-16/HG-10B combination from Associated Radio.  Boy did I get an earful from my dad about how I was wasting money I needed for college!

73,
Ellen - AF9J

P.S - will admit that there were times when Amatuer radio took a definite backseat to the music.  Especially when I was regularly gigging.

[W2DU]

No Ellen, there's nothing 'snarky' about the valve trombone, any more than for a euphonium or trumpet. After all, Juan Tizol played the valve trombone with Duke Ellington for many years. Nothing snarky about that band, which IMHO was one of the greatest big bands ever. I have more than two dozen CDs of that band, beginning with some of his early 1930s recordings.

Benny Goodman was also one of my favorites. In 1937 my friend W8LLW and I delivered a used Chevy taxi from Detroit to a used car dealer in San Francisco. We then hitchhiked to LA to dig the big bands. In New York Goodman's band was nearly belly up, but he decided to give it one last chance with a cross-country tour. During a gig at Ellitches (sp) Gardens, either in Utah or Nevada, the fans spurned the band, but Goodman still had a contract at the Palomar Ballroom in LA, which he honored. 8LLW and I were at the Palomar on Goodman's first night there, and the crowd went wild with frenzied excitement, man, what an experience! It was that night's performance that led the way to Goodman's long-lived success.

Thanks Todd, for the reference to CHWO Toronto--I'll give it a listen.

And speaking of Artie Shaw, Bruce, his Navy band was in Honolulu while I was there with the FCC in 1994. I didn't play with his band, but his musicians had a daily jam session that I attended, and got to jam with trumpeter Johnny Best, saxist Sam Donohue, and drummer Dave Tough. Initially I had no trumpet in Hawaii, because the girth measurements of the case were too large for wartime shipment. However, I found a new Selmer cornet in one of the music stores that allowed me to jam with Artie's side men. One of Artie's wives was the daughter of Jerome Kern.

If you take an enlarged look at my 1936 band pic, observe that the tail stock on the violin has a brass bracket attached. I installed that bracket on Roger's violin to hold an Astatic phono pickup in place with the needle held against the bridge. Roger was an extrordinary improv artist, and with his great sound coming from the speakers the violin was a great hit with the big band. I may well have been the first to amplify a string instrument in that manner.

Do any of you know why and how the big-band era ended? Pretty sad picture, actually. James Caesar Petrillo was president of ASCAP around the end of WW2. He was against having big bands record, because he thought the recordings would put the bands out of business, so he banned all the bands from recording beginning in 1944. How wrong he was, because the popularity of the bands came almost exclusively from the recordings. Fans would buy the recordings, become intimately associated with the various tunes, and then await with bated breath for the band to appear locally so they could hear it in person. Petrillo just didn't get it, and without the recordings the big bands were lost to what was called  'vocadance' music, a vocalist singing behind a four or five piece group. At 89 I can't recall her name right now, but she was on the Chevy show years ago, opening with 'Tour the USA, in your Chevrolet" (her name will come to me after I've posted this.) Anyway, she got her start as a vocadance vocalist. That era continued until the Beatles came over. Man, what great musicians they were! And that's where you rockers took over.

Well, Ellen, I'm glad my Dad encouraged me to be a ham, because being a ham paved the way for all my positions in my entire career. Bruce is helping me with a new post that chronicles my early days as a ham that gives examples of those positions. I don't know in what venue he'll have me post them, but I'll let you know here on QSO.

C y'all later,

Walt, W2DU

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

Hi Walt!   Long, long time!  

Everybody, Walt had a nice AM station back around 1969-1970 when he came on 75 meters and talked about SWR, reflected power, etc.  He is better known in some circles for his work at RCA on the ground stations for the first communications satellites, that carried President Eisenhower's 'Christmas Message From Space' in 1958, and a large number of serious satellites such as Tiros-M, Tiros-N, ESSA, NOAA Weather, RCA Satcom, and development work on antennas such as the quadrifilar helix, back in the 1960s through 1980.  A true pioneer and old timer, of technology that is still advanced today.  Welcome, Walt.

I remember that song, it was Dinah Shore...  Regarding the music biz, I read about how the head of a musicians union way back when, was saying that a stereo recording should be billed as two distinct recording sessions... but, he was mollified when someone told him that everything would have to be re-recorded in stereo.  Reportedly, he smiled happily.

[NE4AM]

Hi Ellen -
Any chance you were a UIUC alumnus?  We might have bumped into each other, as I graduated in '84, after way too much time north of Green.

I wasn't playing guitar at the time, but picked it up myself after graduation.  Now I'm playing country blues like MS John Hurt, Blind Blake, John Fahey, etc. 

Glad to meet you.

73 - Dave

[W2XR]

At 89 I can't recall her name right now, but she was on the Chevy show years ago, opening with 'Tour the USA, in your Chevrolet" (her name will come to me after I've posted this.) Anyway, she got her start as a vocadance vocalist. That era continued until the Beatles came over. Man, what great musicians they were! And that's where you rockers took over.


C y'all later,

Walt, W2DU

Walt,

A truly fascinating series of posts!

I think you may be referring to the late Dinah Shore. A very talented lady, indeed.

If I recall correctly, Alvino Rey was also a ham. I think his call may have been W6UX, W6UK, or something along those lines.

73,

Bruce

[W2DU]

Nice hearing from you, Bacon, it has been a long time. My sons Bill and Rick and I have mentioned you often. And you're right, it was Dinah Shore who became a famous vocalist after getting started with the vocadance style.

And Bruce (XR), yes, Alvino Rey was W6UK, an original two-letter call from several years before my time. My W2DU is a retread, obtained in 1968 when the FCC began to offer two-letter calls to holders of Extra class licenses with at least 25 years licensed.

Bruce, I'm sure you must be aware that W2XR was the original call sign of WQXR, New York City. It came on the air some time in the 1940s as an experimental BC station with high fidelity. While all other stations were limited to 5 kc mod frequencies, W2XR was allowed much greater bandwidth, and was later assigned WQXR.

And Bruce (UJR), you mentioned music in your waiting room. Are you a doctor?

Enough already,

Walt, W2DU

[W1DAN]

Hi Walt and Ellen:

Interesting thread!

I enjoy finding and restoring old 78RPM records (and transcritpion disks) to CD.

I found some Alvino Rey 78's and really enjoy the sound and style. Tell us more about the group.

While I am not a musician, I enjoy most any style of music.

73,
Dan
W1DAN
www.dbaudio.net

 

[AF9J]

Hi Ellen -
Any chance you were a UIUC alumnus?  We might have bumped into each other, as I graduated in '84, after way too much time north of Green.

I wasn't playing guitar at the time, but picked it up myself after graduation.  Now I'm playing country blues like MS John Hurt, Blind Blake, John Fahey, etc. 

Glad to meet you.

73 - Dave

Hi Dave,

Nope, I graduated from the Univ. of Wisconsin (in Madison, WI), class of '87.  I really didn't start playing out in rock bands until after college.  Country Blues are cool.  I dabbled with Country Blues in my late teens, when I was chiefly an acoustic player.  One of these days, when I really have the scatch for a guitar, that I'll only play, when really I get the urge for it, I wouldn't mind getting a dobro.  A gitcho (6-string guitar banjo) might be cool too.  I saw Joe Satriani play one on MTV Unplugged back in 1990.  It sounded pretty cool.

Walt, I read about the incident you mentioned, that let to the demise of the big bands.  Before that incident, vocalists were very much junior members of the bands.  With the exception of maybe Kate Smith, they were not frontmen or frontwomen for their bands.  In a way, it led to rock 'n roll not only happening (since vocals are an integral part of so much rock 'n roll), but surviving, due to the fact that the Beatles up until maybe the "Rubber Soul" album, used to claim they were singers who happened to be itnerant musicians.  At the time the Beatles hit it big, rock 'n roll wasn't doing so well.  It was still selling records, but the number of non-rock 'n roll pop stars (such as Bobby Darin, Ray Coniff, etc.) who were on the charts was very much on the increase.   Jimmy Page, the guitarist for the rock band Led Zepplin, used to be a session musician in England in the early 60s.   In an interview with "Guitar Player Magazine", he stated that for a year or two before the Beatles hit it big, it was very difficult to even find rock 'n roll recording sessions, to play in. In some cases, he had to travel to France to find sessions, so he could come up with enough money to even pay the bills.  So here's my case:

no vocal oriented bands = no development of skiffle music (a form of folk blues that was very popular in England in the 50s), which the members of the Beatles cut their musical teeth on (John and Paul first played together in the Quarrymen - a skiffle group).  No Beatles = rock 'n roll becomes nothing more than a fad that dies out in a few years.  Oh yeah, and no ascension of vocally oriented groups, means that country music remains nothing more than cowboy and hillbilly music.

73 & Play On,
Ellen - AF9J

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Wow! Lots of good stories and such.  Great reading. Beat the hell out of discussing oil prices!

Look at Mick Jagger and his band.

Do I have to? He's scary looking as is most of the band. They made good music up until about 20 years ago. Now they are caricatures of themselves. Sad mostly. They are what they made fun of years ago.

  I recently bought an Epiphone (sorry Steve, I know that being a Danny Gatton fanatic, you feel Telecasters rule, but I now I realize why in my almost 30 years of playing, I've never owned a regular Telecaster - too much twang for my tastes).  

I never said that.  Danny Gatton rules but he would if he was playing a Tele or any other guitar. You might wanna listen to some more Gatton or some Clarence White if you think Teles are only good for twang. Just ain't so. That's said, there's a place for solid bodies, hollow, semi-hollow, acoustic, nylon stringed, intergalactic and so on. Good music is good music, no matter the instrument.

Man, do I feel out of place among all you guitar-playing rockers! Your style is beyond my ken. I'm really old hat compared with you guys.

Don't. From my listening to the so called big band and swing era stuff (I have 600-800 disks from that era), many of those bands had more drive (and rock, if you wanna call it that) than many of the so called rock bands than came later. Same goes for many jazz instrumentalists and bands. Groups with good instrumental chops can cook and have that certain drive, no matter the music style.

So here's my case:
no vocal oriented bands = no development of skiffle music (a form of folk blues that was very popular in England in the 50s), which the members of the Beatles cut their musical teeth on (John and Paul first played together in the Quarrymen - a skiffle group).  No Beatles = rock 'n roll becomes nothing more than a fad that dies out in a few years.  Oh yeah, and no ascension of vocally oriented groups, means that country music remains nothing more than cowboy and hillbilly music.

Interesting to think about but I'm not sure I can buy that. The initial premise seems to be in direct contrast one of the original rockers, Elvis, most certainly a headliner and vocalist with a back up band. Rock lost its way and popularity, IMO, when it got away from its Blues roots and the associated edge and drive. The Bobby Darin's and Pat Boone's of the early 60's had none of that. To my ears, neither did the Beetles. They were very poppy sounding with slick lyrics and 3 minute turnaround type songs - perfect for radio play and pop chart success, but no soul or edge like the Blues and early rock. Thankfully Clapton, Hendrix and other injected some of that Blues drive back into the scene with their instrumental prowess, and saved us from the vocal dominated pop crap.

[AF9J]

Hmmm, that's a good point Steve, 

Admittedly, the the slick polsihed sound oof Pat Boone et al  really diluted rock 'n roll.  Bu even Elvis diluted his sound after 1956, when he quit doing rockabilly.  I saw an early clip of him on the Dorsey Brothers show doing the Lefty Frizzel song "Money Honey."  It just ripped!  But then he started dyeing his hair black ( his natural hair colr was brown), and started trying to be more like the Dean Martin of rock 'n roll (Elvis was a big fan of Dean Martin).  He wasnt quite as edgy, and this incarnation of Elvis (Hound Dog, Don't Be Cruel, era & later) is not really my cup of tea. 

So yes, the polishing of rock & roll almost killed it.  Still, you have to admit, vocals did have a decided influence in post big band music, and were even an integral part of bands like Cream, Hendrix, The Who, Metallica, etc..  I'm not a big fan of vocally oriented groups, but will admit that  while I like instrumental rock, I don't like to hear it exclusively.  BTW, I stand corrected about Teles.  I assumed that because The Humbler mainly played Teles, that you found them be "the guitar".  Sorry about that.  My mistake.   And yes, this is cooler than talking about gas prices.

73,
Ellen - AF9J