Incandescent lamps outlawed?

[WA1GFZ]

Yes, I also saw him.

[steve_qix]

All the poor people out there without super insulation are going to feel the pain this coming winter. Double walls will rule. Many of my friends thought I was crazy when I double walled the old QTH in the 80s. The thought of losing 4 inches of floor space on each wall, oh my.

Absolutely!  Around here, more fuel is used for hot water than heat... Now if I can find a way to stop my wife from taking 30 minute showers at full blast . . .  I'd really save some money! 

[WA1GFZ]

I draw the line at taking a shower....I like a nice hot shower. I think we are about even for heat and hot water. Now we turn the furnace off at night and in the middle of the day when nobody is using hot water. This might get us under 700 gallons/year if we are lucky. Why have it run every couple hours for 10 munutes just to keep a jug of water hot that nobody needs till 6 AM.
Start smearing on the lube here comes the next round of electric rate hikes.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Hey Steve_QIX   Whats the super insulation??  Do you just frame up a second set of walls Inside the house? Do you peel off the old sheet rock and such?

Inquiring minds want to know...

My house has 2x3 (yea 2x3!! ) framing. It's an prefab from the 60's. The interior walls are 1.5x1.5 sticks with 3/8th sheet rock.  needless to say the insulation qualities of the walls come more from the sheathing/shingles than the ancient fiberglass batting inside...

[steve_qix]

Well, I had the unbelievable luxury of being able to start from scratch (new house).  Believe me, I've paid my dues in restoring old (condemned) houses.  That is much, much harder than building new.

I built the house in 1992, during the last real estate recession.  It just worked out that way, however if there had not been a recession, I could never have built this house - it would have been much too expensive, even with me doing much of the work myself.  Ony 4 new houses were built in Townsend that year, so I was able to get subcontractors (foundation, site work - things I can't do myself) at very good prices.  Materials were also down in price, and they were giving land away!!

I went a little crazy with some of this stuff 

Anyway, the house starts out as a 2x6 framed building, 24 inch on center. 

There is high performance insulation (R twenty-something - I forget) in the 2X6 section. 
Over the entire frame, on the inside is 1 inch  Polyisocyanurate (R8.7, double foil faced board).

Then, there are 2x4s on the flat, run horizontally over the Polyisocyanurate, 16 inches on center, bolted (using long screws and nails) to the 2x6 frame.  So, there is no thermal connection (save the nails and screws) between the inner 2x4 frame and the outer frame.

All joints between Polyisocyanurate sections are sealed with aluminized duct tape, 6 inches wide.

Over the 2x4 frame is the finished material, which in this house on the walls is sheetrock.  There is an air gap, providing additional insulation, between the 2X4 (on the flat) internal wall and the Polyisocyanurate.

The entire wall forms a greater than R-30 system.   All electrical wiring is run inside of the 2X4 internal structure.  There are no penetrations.  All pipes, etc are run within inside walls.

The windows are tripple glazed, low E, argon filled windows made by PPG (Marvin).  There is 70 feet of south facing wall.

The 2nd floor celings are similar, except with 12 inches of high performance fiberglass instead of 6 inches, giving an additional R 23 or so to the celings.

There is insulation in every interior wall and celing to reduce sound transmission between rooms and areas.

The heating system is an Energy Kenetics System 2000, computer controlled furnace which goes cold between cycles.  The heat is forced hot water by oil.  Almost the entire outer perimeter of the house is looped with baseboard radiators.  This was done on purpose, to allow the system to run at a lower than normal water temperature, and still provide lots of heat.  Normally, there would be less than half of the radiator space, but it would run at a higher temperature.  This is less efficient.

The house has approximately 4500 square feet of heated living space, so heating was a major consideration !  The building is situated with 70 feet of south facing wall, arranged in sort of a T configuration.  The garage, ham shack, laundry and other non-critical areas come out of the center of main house on the north side, forming the T.  These areas provide further buffering from the North winds.

I built this house in 1992, and since that time we have never operated the heat on the 2nd floor.  We generally keep the house at 72 degrees in the winter, and even on the very coldest, 15 below zero days, the 2nd floor does not drop below 65, so we don't bother with the heat upstairs.

I have designed and built 2 houses from scratch.  You will save a TON of money doing it this way.  There is no way - ABSOLUTELY no way I could ever BUY this house - no way, no way, no way - but I can BUILD it.  This house took approximately 5 years to complete, and actually - there are still a few things here and there which are not done!  We all lived in it - unfinished (with stud walls and plywood floors) during the construction, much to the chargrin of the (at the time) building inspector    I finished things as I had the time and money... and it worked out pretty well.

I don't know if I could do it again - its the sort of thing that works well when you're younger, but it you have the energy, go for it!  This recession is the perfect time to build.

Regards,

Steve

[WA1GFZ]

Man is it ever a good time to build. BTW foam with an air gap is rated at R10 check the next time at home depot. Marked right on the panel.
Overhead I did foam and 2 layers of R30. Panel alone is R6.7 so that puts me at R67. I did R25 unfaced which is attic insulation unfaced between the studs rather than the suggested R19 paper backed. My air gap is smaller than Steve's using strips of plywood as spacers between foam and sheetrock.
I'm actually sorry I didn't spring for 2 inch foam now. R35 in th ewalls isn't bad. I only did double glazed argon windows though.
Yea I'm starting year 5 on my project still walking on plywood and no paint yet but we hope to have all the doors up soon.
Building new is so much easier. Enfield house I think I filled 3 20 yd. dumpsters.
At least now if I want to sit on the beach I can.

[Opcom]

I've thought about putting some kind of thermal barrier in the attic on the rafters (steep roof), but this old house (ahem) has no insulation in the walls and the entire front of the hosue faces west, so I get the heat of the sun every afternoon and that is the real killer. I have asbestos siding, so if I ever have it removed and aluminum or (other) installed, I may get them to blow some foam into the walls. For good or bad, asbestos siding does not ever go bad.

This heat load makes for a decent chunk of the $500 electric bill because of the air conditioning. I also calculated that if I turn on all the flourescent lights in the shack, it costs $1 per hour. I use all CFLs in my lamps and figure I save about $2 per day, adding up to $60 per month savings. I am in the habit of leaving some lights on during the day for the cats' benefit since all the windows are heavily curtained agains the heat and it would be dark otherwise, which would not be fair to them to have no definite day and night.

[steve_qix]

I've thought about putting some kind of thermal barrier in the attic on the rafters (steep roof), but this old house (ahem) has no insulation in the walls and the entire front of the hosue faces west, so I get the heat of the sun every afternoon and that is the real killer. I have asbestos siding, so if I ever have it removed and aluminum or (other) installed, I may get them to blow some foam into the walls. For good or bad, asbestos siding does not ever go bad.

This heat load makes for a decent chunk of the $500 electric bill because of the air conditioning. I also calculated that if I turn on all the flourescent lights in the shack, it costs $1 per hour. I use all CFLs in my lamps and figure I save about $2 per day, adding up to $60 per month savings. I am in the habit of leaving some lights on during the day for the cats' benefit since all the windows are heavily curtained agains the heat and it would be dark otherwise, which would not be fair to them to have no definite day and night.

Hmmmmm.. I have never lived in Texas, and have only been there once (to Houston and it was 100 degrees with about 90% humidity - WOW!), but I'm imagining the only problem there is cooling?  Does it ever get cold, where heat is necessary?

It sounds as if you might be a good candidate for solar air-conditioning.  Do you have lots of sunny days during the summer?

As for the orientation of your house, unfortunately, it seems as if orientation was a non-consideration for the vast majority of people who built houses.  "Make the house face the street" seems to be the rule.  Dumb.  Particularly where you are - a West facing side is a hot side.  That's actually the same here, too - the summers, which can reach 100 degrees during bad heat waves, and over 90 degrees during July and August (we've been over 90 already) feel hotter if your house faces West.

I don't know where the worst weather in the country is - temperature swing-wise.  Probably the mid-West, but I don't know for sure.  Around here, you have to plan for 20 degrees below (because it actually gets that cold during the winter, and the steady-state temperature will stay in the single digits for long stretches during January and February), and 90+ degrees because that's what happens during July and August.

But, it probably is worse other places.  The best is probably Southern CA.  If I ever have to move, it might be nice to go to a place that has about 300 sunny days per year, but is not in a desert (does such a place exist?)   

Regards,

Steve

[KC4ALF]

I work at the big "BLUE" home improvement center and our electrical dept recieved notice of the ban slated for 2012. You'r friendly Fudderal Gov't at work.
Needless to say there will be a run on bulbs just like the one on the old style 3 gallon (you don't need an air compressor) to flush toilets when that change came about.

[K6JEK]

Steve.  Your house.  Wow.

Jon

[WA1GFZ]

My Enfield house is 2X4 construction. I built a second wall inside shifted 8 inches so the studs don't line up. I put a the horizontal block in middle to tie the walls. Then filled the cavity. if I did it today I would go with a layer of  1 inch polyisocyanurate between the walls and do R15 in the new wall. The only pita is wiring and trim around windows. It does make for nice deep window sills. I think ours ended up 8 or 9 inches so I used 1 inch oak. I predrilled holes and used a lot of deck screws rather than pounding nails. When a nail worked I predrilled and used nails. Nail gun would make it go a lot faster.
Do a wall in a room at a time. I left the old sheetrock up. I have 2 layers of R11 with sheetrock in the middle so maybe R25 total. I found R60 a good number for overhead in this area. It pays for itself in time. Wood is cheap these days. Sheetrock is 1/2 the price it was last year when I was doing the new house last year. 
Now is a good time to stock pile insulation. Buy a couple rolls a week and install it in the fall. R25 unfaced rolls is great for the attic and easy to install.
My place was wired in '60 with no safety ground so I just rewired the whole house and upgraded everything. fc

[Bill, KD0HG]

I build the homestead 10 years ago with Murus structural panels, instead of frame construction.

They're made of foam polyurethane insulating sheets with OSB glued to both sides.

You send Murus the drawings for what you want, and the walls of your building arrive with the holes for
windows and doors already cut out. The panels latch together with a key. Insect and air tight.

You can have the manufacturer pre-install electric conduit or wire chases in the panels, or you run the wiring around the outside of the building, under the siding.

I highly recommend for home or garage construction.

Thickness     R-value
4-1/2"     26
5-1/2"     33
6-1/2"     40

[steve_qix]

I looked seriously into that type of panel - what did they call it - a stressedskin panel - I forget.   Very high R value.

The plan was to do a timber frame (post and beam) skeleton, and put the panels on the outside, over the beautiful frame so the frame would still be visible.

The biggest problem was the overall project cost.   At least around here, to build the same house I have now with that type of (beautiful) construction would have cost more than twice as much.

But, it is a very energy efficient way to go, and I must say, the construction is very fast.  I'm looking into adding some more garage space (3 bays - mostly for junk, not for cars!!) with living space above - probably in a stand-alone building, and the panel type of construction is definitely under consideration.

Regards,

Steve

[WA1GFZ]

a friend built a house with foam concrete forms to insulate the basement.
He broke even doing it himself rather than hiring a concrete contractor.
I've never seen any panel homes around here except one done on public TV.
Looks cool but I don't know about wind. I'm set in my ways I like a stud every 16 inches with plywood. I hear the USB board of today is a lot stronger.
A very cool DOE web site is RES Check. They have a free software program that tells you if you have enough insulation and window performance for the area you live in. When I went for my building permit the building inspector told me he didn't care how I insulated as long ar the final report produced says comply. That was fairly easy to pass so then checked out an electric heat web site which suggested a bit more insulation....Then I looked at the best insulation jobs of all the people I know Steve's, My sister's and a solar heat friend and kicked it up another notch. I also insulated the inside walls. It didn't cost much and makes the house quieter.
I started in this place with 4 inches in the attic and nothing in the walls.
Attic first layer of R19 made a huge difference. Second layer also a fairly good change. Third layer of R19 a slight difference but noticed it quieter inside. Walls I had glass insulation blown in which was huge. Then swapped out the windows again huge. Added second wall and another good jump.
It was a pita when I did the job 20 years ago but it doesn't owe me anything today. I'm slowly filling my two tanks 100 gallons at a time, last week $4.54 a gallon. 

[Bill, KD0HG]

Steve: Yup, that's what this place is, a timberframe covered with Murus stressed skin panels. Here's some pix of assembly 10 years ago. We had the frame up and assembled in one day with the help of a boom truck. The Amish do it the hard way- LOL. If you ever want a deal on a hand-hewn timberframe, let me know, that's what my Wooster, Ohio bro-in-law does for a living.

The Doug-fir timbers came from a salvage logger in Washington state, we loaded them on a flatbed to Wooster where they were cut, then the whole frame in the form of a kit came out to Colorado on another semi flatbed. I had originally wanted to use recycled timbers from an old factory being torn down in Cleveland, but Bill Gates bought up every stick of old timber in the country that year for building his own residence in Seattle. I got outbid for 10"x12"x40' sticks of 19th century oak. LOL
Trees that large don't exist any more, except for in the Pacific Northwest. The old growth forests in the east are long gone. But you can get old timbers from barns and etc that are being torn down.

The American settlers in the early 1800s had it made for lumber. By that time, the old Oak forests in England were by and large gone, but places like New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio had forests of massive hardwood trees.

See the piece of Romex dangling outside in the 3rd picture? That's how I wired the top floor. Chased out openings in the stress skin with a sawzall and chisel, installed the boxes, then drill straight outside through the wall. Shoot polyurethane foam around the box when it's in place. The wiring lies outside the skins under the siding, where it home runs to the load center downstairs. Super easy.

[steve_qix]

That's fine looking construction !   I looked at a lot of post and beam houses - built and under construction.  The look and solidity is something to behold.  Maybe the costs have changed with respect to stick built since I built my first house back in 1985 and then the one I'm in currently, in 1992.

For this garage/apartment project, it would be nice to go timber frame.  I wonder if it is less expensive to provide your own raw material (the unsawn wood), or to use "their" wood.  That would be an interesting answer to find out.  I can pretty much get all the oak I want up to about 12 inches in diameter or so.  Some might be somewhat larger.

Great looking place you've got there    That post and beam frame is really a work of art.

Regards,

Steve

[WA1GFZ]

Steve,
Last night I went by a post and beam house going up a few miles away They are cool looking. When I cleared my lot I looked into saw mills cutting up my oak and it was big bucks. Then you had to truck it. A friend turned me on to a guy with a portable saw mill. (sells for $10K or so) He charged me $60 to haul it to the lot and $26 a blade if we hit any nails. He charged me by the board foot think around 50 cents. We cut about 1000 board feet that day.
All piled up in the basement waiting to become trim. Cutting timbers would be cheap and a unit like that would do about a 20 footer. It had a band saw on a 15 HP motor.

[Bill, KD0HG]

You can make use of shorter timbers if you put a lap splice on top of the posts. So if the longest timbers you have are 15' long, then the building needs to be designed so the posts are 15' apart. You aren't going to find 40' long timbers, so splices are always necessary.

The cheapest way to go is to find an old frame barn, factory, mill or other building that's going to be torn down and recycle the timbers. There's some to be found in almost every part of the country. Farmers just don't need old-fashioned barns any more, the small family farm with a couple of cows is history. One advantage is that the wood is well seasoned and only needs planing in most cases. I know someone that bought an old wooden church in upstate New York, made in the early 1800s, and rebuilt it into his residence, bell tower and all. The church people were glad to get some cash for the old building instead of paying someone with a dozer to dispose of it.The bottoms of the posts near the ground had gotten moist over the years and got rotten...No problem, he cut off a few feet of the unsound wood.

Man, that old oak is tough! You sometimes have to drill pilot holes for nails.

[WA1GFZ]

Yup a nice big lap joint and a couple pegs works great. Barns around here get plenty of use. Tabakie is still very popular and is a great aid for cancer research. Knowing Steve's place he could easily make 40 footers. The problem with old buildings is the wood is too close to the ground so it absorbs water. If you ever lifted a timber you will know why shorter ones are easier. A big one requires a crane.
I work with a guy who just built a big post and beam barn. He used steal plates and threaded rod rather than pegs. He is into building planes and one of the best PC board designers I know. I think he got southern yellow pine from down south.

[Opcom]

I've thought about putting some kind of thermal barrier in the attic on the rafters (steep roof), but this old house (ahem) has no insulation in the walls and the entire front of the hosue faces west, so I get the heat of the sun every afternoon and that is the real killer. I have asbestos siding, so if I ever have it removed and aluminum or (other) installed, I may get them to blow some foam into the walls. For good or bad, asbestos siding does not ever go bad.

This heat load makes for a decent chunk of the $500 electric bill because of the air conditioning. I also calculated that if I turn on all the flourescent lights in the shack, it costs $1 per hour. I use all CFLs in my lamps and figure I save about $2 per day, adding up to $60 per month savings. I am in the habit of leaving some lights on during the day for the cats' benefit since all the windows are heavily curtained agains the heat and it would be dark otherwise, which would not be fair to them to have no definite day and night.

Hmmmmm.. I have never lived in Texas, and have only been there once (to Houston and it was 100 degrees with about 90% humidity - WOW!), but I'm imagining the only problem there is cooling?  Does it ever get cold, where heat is necessary?

It sounds as if you might be a good candidate for solar air-conditioning.  Do you have lots of sunny days during the summer?

As for the orientation of your house, unfortunately, it seems as if orientation was a non-consideration for the vast majority of people who built houses.  "Make the house face the street" seems to be the rule.  Dumb.  Particularly where you are - a West facing side is a hot side.  That's actually the same here, too - the summers, which can reach 100 degrees during bad heat waves, and over 90 degrees during July and August (we've been over 90 already) feel hotter if your house faces West.

I don't know where the worst weather in the country is - temperature swing-wise.  Probably the mid-West, but I don't know for sure.  Around here, you have to plan for 20 degrees below (because it actually gets that cold during the winter, and the steady-state temperature will stay in the single digits for long stretches during January and February), and 90+ degrees because that's what happens during July and August.

But, it probably is worse other places.  The best is probably Southern CA.  If I ever have to move, it might be nice to go to a place that has about 300 sunny days per year, but is not in a desert (does such a place exist?)   

Regards,

Steve

It gets down to 30 at the lowest, for maybe a week.. A/C is the only issue here and heat can be skimped on but not done without. I'm not sure what solar A/C would cost. I have never seen it around here, but there is plenty of sun. I've been told that the collector size is about equal to the square feet of the space to be cooled. Mosquito Coast! I've been told a screened front porch the width of the house would do alot to reduce the western heating. It all comes to $$. I'm trying to save for the antenna system. I really want very badly to get on the air with something more than a 40FT piece of wire.