Get Your A/C Info Here! Also applies to gas and oil heat!!!

[W1ATR]

I'm still waiting for some of those heating or air conditioning questions to pop up. That's my trade, and I'm good at it. Never seem to get one however.

[Bill, KD0HG]

OK, here's one.

Years ago, I bought about 20 cans of R-12 to recharge my old pickup truck (that I no longer own). Paid a buck or two per can for it.

Can I use it in my 2002 truck that runs on 134a, or should I move it out to someone that needs it on Epay?

[W1ATR]

No, it cant be used in a 134a system. Should be able to snag around $25/lb or so for it. Pretty expensive stuff right now, but the prices are going down due to demand.

[K6JEK]

I'm still waiting for some of those heating or air conditioning questions to pop up. That's my trade, and I'm good at it. Never seem to get one however.

Don't let the moderator catch us or he'll move us to the HVAC forum.   Here's the question.   I have an old natural gas furnace in my mild climate Silicon Valley home.   It wants to go to that great furnace resting place in the sky.

Am I crazy to consider a heat pump to replace it?   I don't really need the air conditioning but I have an excess of electrons from my over-sized photo voltaic solar array so I'm thinking about it.

Jon, K6JEK

[W1ATR]

Yeah, maximum thread highjackage.

Anyway, I'm looking at weather history for Sunnyvale, and I can't believe it, man is it nice there. 70's-80's in the summer, 40's-50's in the winter. Reasonable humidity. 16" annual rain. 300 days of sun average. Now I'm really disgusted.

With temps like that, I would definitely go the heat pump route. More economic to operate on a yearly basis, and you get the AC.  We don't have to many hp's in the northeast due to very low temps in the winter, anything close to freezing and they bite the dust and switch over to heating coils which= big $$$ to operate till the condenser thaws, or the outdoor temps come up.

As long as your ductwork is up to snuff, you should be able to get out of a hp install pretty reasonable. Don't let a salesman fast talk you on a super high SEER unit, (13seer is normal. anything above 16seer is a waste of money). The payback on some of the cutting edge super high seer equipment out there is so slow, more than likely, the equipment wont last long enough to achieve the payback. Normal lifespan is around 15-20 years.

Puron systems, r-410a, are the latest out there, but again, overpriced at best and slow payback. R-22 is currently being phased out, but just like r12 was in the early 90's, there's going to be plenty of r-22 around probably for the next 20 years or so.

Hope this helps.   

[flintstone mop]

Bill,
The old Freon is like GOLD now. You might be a millionaire............hi
The new stuff VOLVO tricked us into using will not mix. Yea, global warming from freon released into the atmosphere.
Fred

[K6JEK]

Yeah, maximum thread highjackage.

Anyway, I'm looking at weather history for Sunnyvale, and I can't believe it, man is it nice there. 70's-80's in the summer, 40's-50's in the winter. Reasonable humidity. 16" annual rain. 300 days of sun average. Now I'm really disgusted.

With temps like that, I would definitely go the heat pump route. More economic to operate on a yearly basis, and you get the AC.  We don't have to many hp's in the northeast due to very low temps in the winter, anything close to freezing and they bite the dust and switch over to heating coils which= big $$$ to operate till the condenser thaws, or the outdoor temps come up.

As long as your ductwork is up to snuff, you should be able to get out of a hp install pretty reasonable. Don't let a salesman fast talk you on a super high SEER unit, (13seer is normal. anything above 16seer is a waste of money). The payback on some of the cutting edge super high seer equipment out there is so slow, more than likely, the equipment wont last long enough to achieve the payback. Normal lifespan is around 15-20 years.

Puron systems, r-410a, are the latest out there, but again, overpriced at best and slow payback. R-22 is currently being phased out, but just like r12 was in the early 90's, there's going to be plenty of r-22 around probably for the next 20 years or so.

Hope this helps.   

Thanks, Jared.  Yes.   It helps a lot.

Jon

[WA1GFZ]

Take that R12 to a car show and put a good price on it. It will sell like hot cakes. I have about a dozen cans myself.

[wa1knx]

Jared, i can use some help! i have my 1998 toy, it needs a
recharge. do you know what they used then? is it something I
could do myself? Deano

[WA1GFZ]

Heck dean if you were around I would do it for you. You bring the r12 though. You have to make sure there is no leaks first. They also sell kits to replace R12 in the car stores but it doesn't work as well. I think the kit is around $20 plus you have to buy a few more cans of juice. They also sell a special oil that rides with the R12.
I bet HVAC guys can still buy R12.

[W1ATR]

I think we're going to have to make a new thread.

Dean. It's a 1998 what? Not that it matters because everything above 1994 uses R134a. The reason I ask is to answer that right, I need to know if it has a TXV, (thermostatic expansion valve), or if it's a CCOT system, (Cycling Compressor Orifice Tube.)

 Are you just low from a slow leak, (compressor short cycling), or has it run out completely?

If it's just low, you could give it a squirt with one of those cans with the hose and single gauge setup on it, and as long as there's nothing wrong with anything else, that'll get it by. I never liked those gauge on a can deals because without actually putting on a real gauge manifold, you'll never know what the high side is doing. If you have a bad txv, or plugged orifice tube, the high side would go thru the roof and you'd never know it until the compressor pukes right in front of you.

Little more info if u would on the current condition of the system would be helpful.

DONT put that r12 in there...

[W1ATR]

Heck dean if you were around I would do it for you. You bring the r12 though. You have to make sure there is no leaks first. They also sell kits to replace R12 in the car stores but it doesn't work as well. I think the kit is around $20 plus you have to buy a few more cans of juice. They also sell a special oil that rides with the R12.
I bet HVAC guys can still buy R12.

Yes, those kits are definitely useless. they're nothing but money makers for parts stores when the DIY'er goes home, blows the old juice to the air,(then bitches about how hot it is out in the summertime), proceeds to dump in one of those one hose kits and a few more cans. A week later, he's back at the counter buying a new compressor and receiver dryer.

The parts counter kid puts down his text messaging cell phone for a second and says "Geez, i guess your compressor was on it's way out, huh." In reality, what actually happens with those kits is the POE oil charge for the 134a doesn't like being mixed with the left over mineral oil that was nicely minding it's own business in the bottom of the compressor and condenser when the system was dumped out. These two oils get together, have a nice little acid making party in the compressor, and a short time later, the comp seizes.

Some comp's have a drain plug to drop the oil, some don't. I always take the comp right off, and dump it manually. System flush follows behind that, then vacuum, then charge.

Real easy stuff. 

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I think we're going to have to make a new thread.

Ask and you shall receive! Really, who hasn't hi-jacked a thread now and then?

The mod iron thread won't see much until there's a resolution, and now I can ask about reviving the big Amana A/C unit at the house in Florida. It's been idle since the 2004 house fire, was working fine until then.

Other than some shrinkage around the top plastic shroud and not having power put to it for 3 years, what should I look for before spooling it up? No idea of the age of the unit and whether it's worth bringing back to life or should just be updated. I'd expect at the very least, all the cold goodie has escaped by now?

[W1ATR]

Hi Todd. I kinda figured there must be a way to dice up a thread and start a new one. Especially with a major highjack complete subject change like this one.

Hopefully, you'll get that mod iron mess straightened out without too much more of a headache than it already is. I have to ship an amplifier, National ncl-2000(85lbs), to washington state this week and I'm packing the thing like it's nitro glycerin to try and avoid it's destruction.

I would have to guess that one's a little long in the tooth. They haven't made that case style in years. Best i can say is make sure to clean out any debris. You can pull the disconnect and lift out the condenser fan and reach down inside to scoop out anything thats in there. You can remove the service cover on the side, (remember to kill the power), and check for anything dead in there,(mice, snakes, them little friggin lizards, whatever). Without getting a set of gauges on it, there won't be any way to know what the state of the charge is, so it might be worth it to do the above mentioned moves and have a tech come out and do the startup. Make sure the air handler inside is in order, (new filter, nothing funny going on), and this will save some labor charges getting the startup done.

If your in Florida now, give me the model and serial #s and I can give you the specifics on that one.

[WA1GFZ]

build a wood crate. It should be able to take a 30 inch drop.
Remove the tubes pack them in foam

[WA3VJB]

Our newer cars use R134a and I had one of those big jugs of R22 leftover that I got 30 years ago.

I knew it was not compatible, but I found an excellent use however.

It was great to snuff out the charcoal at the end of a steak grilling, because the Freon would evaporate after it would put out the fire, and leave no malodorous taste on the coals, which could then be used the next time, saving money.

I think Phil K2PG turned me on to the idea, warning me to make sure I use the adapter hose you would normally use to the car's A/C valve, so I could keep the canister upright while spraying the grill. He had all kinds of drawings and calculations that he offered during a presentation at Frank/AHE's picnic a couple years ago. Frank agrees with the idea of a Weber Kettle with real charcoal, not profane.

Well anyway, if I were to turn the canister upside down to get the nozzle next to the charcoal it would spurt liquid. It wasn't a fire issue, but something, probably because I'd have to get pretty close with an unwieldy tank, unless I turned it on full blast ahead of time to rather clear a path to the hotspots.

You really have to know what you're doing I guess, but we got I think three summers of steak out of it, and one or two fish.

[W7SOE]

Wow, this is just the unlikely thread I need!

I live in an old house (100 yrs) that has forced air heat.  We would like to add AC but balk at the $5500 price tag.  I am wondering what would stop me from doing it myself.

I can:
pour a concrete pad
install the 220V with disconnect
install the evaporator (strangely enough there is already one in the furnace)
install the condenser

What's left?
install lines? 
charge with refrigerant?

Is doing this feasible?  If so, can I call someone to charge it up?  Would I be likely to find a pro who would work with a do-it-yourselfer?

73

Rich

[W1ATR]

Paul, please stop doing that and I'll give you two really good reasons.

Look up 'Phosgene Gas'..

and look up how the EPA will hand you 30,000 good reasons not to vent/release.

[k4kyv]

The old Freon is like GOLD now. You might be a millionaire............hi  The new stuff VOLVO tricked us into using will not mix. Yea, global warming from freon released into the atmosphere.

We also have Global Dimming to worry about.  The global warming trend that's been the news lately could seem like a Sunday picnic once China cleans up its particulate pollution.

I couldn't get the video to start, but you can skim the text in less time anyway.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15809.htm

[W1ATR]

Rich. You can pretty much do most of the labor work, as mentioned, like setting the cond, installing the a-coil, and running the electric. If you don't have an EPA cert, most supply houses won't release a charged condenser to you, but some don't care. Your also going to need a 'fan center' at the furnace, and a run of 5-wire low voltage t-stat wire to the heating/cooling t-stat and a run of two wire out to the condenser.

BUT, if you want to run the lineset, that's ok, but just leave both ends stubbed out and taped closed, in place, near the equipment. In order to connect and charge the system, the LS needs to have nitrogen flowing to prevent carbon buildup during brazing. Don't try and solder linesets, and brazing without nitro will plug up filters and metering orifices/TXV's. Before the service valves are opened, the system has to be pulled down to around 500 microns to boil off the humidity in the lineset and a-coil.

It might be difficult to find a tech that will work with a homeowner, but search around. Most guys will come out, and I've done this myself, find a million things wrong, and refuse to work on it. Do your homework, and read the install manuals particularly regarding condenser placement, how and where to run the LS, how to properly setup the a-coil and install the condensate drain.(<EVERY diy install I ever went to messes up the condensate drain) and you'll probably be fine. Just remember "P" comes before "T"

A side note regarding the ductwork. Probably 80% of the older homes that were built originally with heat only do not have sufficient ductwork to support air conditioning.

A 'manual J' heat load calc is required on the house to determine the size of the equipment and the required CFM. More than likely, the old 'heating only' ductwork will have to updated, or equipment freezing, insufficient cooling, and equipment failures will result.



The fine print: The advice given in this internet post is to be taken for educational use ONLY. The author assumes no liability in the event of personal property loss, injury, or death. This includes, but is not limited to destruction of your property, or your neighbors properties, loss of limbs, decapitation, maiming, burning, termination of the family pet/s, or loss of services to the XYL. Use of the information provided is entirely AT YOUR OWN RISK.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Thanks for the info, Jared -

I'm up north in VT for the time being, but did remember to snap some shots of the A/C last time I was at the place. Been reading up a bit on new systems and such. Depending on the eventual evaluation of the current system, it may get completely replaced. It's an old house (1916) but they gutted out all of the plaster and lath after the fire, so all the ductwork is easy to get to, probably 50s-60s vintage stuff. It's the rectangular galvanized type, no idea if it was ever sized properly to the home (roughly 2900 ft²). Don't recall seeing any return lines either, just one register per room, in or near the ceiling.

If it ends up being replaced, I figure it could be lashed up to the workshop out back if it still functions. My guess on age is 80s since it looks a lot like the Carrier units cooling the data center here at work. But I'll have the XYL get the info off the tag next time she's by the place.

Didn't see an air handler/exchanger/anything else. It could be up in the attic and I missed it (no ceilings, but dark inside) or perhaps under the house. I need to learn all about this stuff for the future, especially how heating relates to the cooling system. Too comfortable with furnaces, boilers, circulator pumps and woodstoves from growing up in the northeast.

Those lizards are funny. Hard to catch, lemme tell ya...

[W1RKW]

Todd,
You may want to check the starting cap or motor run cap on the compressor unit before throwing juice to it.

[W3SLK]

Jared said:

Look up 'Phosgene Gas'..

You betcha! That will shorten the 'mortal filament' for sure. R22 is no substitute for Halon. Just because they are hydrofluorocarbons doesn't mean they decompose the same way. I remember learning about Phogene in the military. They warned us about turning the temperature up too far on our thermal wire strippers when using them with TEFLON insulated wire. Same results.

[WA3VJB]

OH, now I remember. Phil K2PhosgeneGas was warning me not to try it.

Maybe I used the bug sprayer and some leftover DDT to put out the charcoal, I can't really remember now.

[W1ATR]

  lmfao