AM IBOC AT NIGHT: SHOULD GET INTERESTING!

[n4vgb]

http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0100/t.7851.html

Could work as planned, could be a mess?

[flintstone mop]

Another mindless decision from the FCC. FM quality sound for what?? News talk and endless chatter on AM??? I think what Canada did was for better radio. Gone are the days of Music radio and DXing and the thrill of good sounding AM radio of the 60's.
WE will have to be that replacement for AM radio.
And the "expanded band" sounds like crap with all of the competition with Road hazard radio systems and airport driving instructions systems on their little 1640 freqs.
Fred

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

My Talking House transmitter is on 1670. Tiny little wire antenna, amazing what a little tweaking will do for range.

The thought of no more AM broadcast is sickening. Maybe it will flop and they'll revert back to the tried and tested analog method? If it ain't broke...

[k4kyv]

Would Lush Windbag sound any better with CD quality audio than if he broadcast on slopbucket?

I listened for a while to the AM band last night on my little portable.  Plenty of audible stations, but mostly talk radio junk.  Some of the talk shows occasionally get onto a topic that interests me, but most of the time they are non-stop commercials, with a little "talk" in between.  Just as they reach an interesting point, they always will stop to "return after these messages", to be followed by 5 minutes or more of hyping useless junk or ripoffs.

During the day, I do sometimes listen to the AM public radio talk and news station in Nashville, to "Talk of the Nation" and "Day to day".  At least those hosts are polite to their callers, sound like they have a little bit of intelligence, and there are no commercial interruptions.  Unfortunately, I can't pick the station up after sunset.

Last night I think when I scanned the band I heard a total of two stations playing music.  One was WSM in Nashville that plays country music (which I don't care much for), and one other station at the top of the expanded band was playing Hispanic music (which I don't care for any more than country).  Although I heard several other strong stations, it was all talk rubbish.  This includes what I heard coming out of WLS, WSB, WGN, KDKA and WLAC.

If the digital hash wipes out most of the band, I don't think we'll be missing much.  I miss the old AM band when there were stations worth listening to.  Of course, other than the NPR and university stations, the FM band isn't much better.  Occasionally some nice rock music, but way too many commercials.

I also listened across the shortwave broadcast bands.  About the only thing audible in English was a few Bible beaters (including Bro. Stair) and political propaganda from Radio Havana.

If I were going to spend big bucks on a receiver, a ham-band-only one would suit me just fine.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Yes, even voice audio will sound better on AM IBOC. I've listened to it. But if digital AM actually takes off, why would some AM stations continue to run only voice programming? Using the current programming as an argument against AM IBOC is illogical.

[AF9J]

Naturally, don't hold your breath Mack. 

Back in the 90s, some stations  (one of which was in the Milwaukee area), tried niche music formats to revitalize AM. It didn't float.  Too many 40-somethings & younger, who grew up on FM, view AM as old fogey radio.  Also, I read somewhere years ago, that stations (most of which are owned by corporations, like my "favorite" - Clear Channel), usually use industry focus groups to determine what the station format will be.  And of course talk radio has been deemed the money maker on AM.  Sad but true.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[W2JTD]

Using the current programming as an argument against AM IBOC is illogical.

Dammit Spock, I'm a doctor, not a coder.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

And of course talk radio has been deemed the money maker on AM.

It wasn't deemed, it is a money maker. The numbers don't lie. Many AMs would be dark without it. It's so lucrative, many FMs are taking on the format. I don't know why anyone would listen to talk on FM, what with all that fidelity!


I'm not saying IBOC will save AM. It may be too late. I am saying there is no logic in arguing against using AM IBOC in the future based on the programming in place at present.

[WA3VJB]

I wonder if there should be a move to erase the segregation between AM and FM that exists at the receiver.

Once upon a time, when mechnical drums with individual tuned circuits comprised the channel selector on your television set, there were separate VHF and UHF knobs. The UHF knob was a VFO rather than a fixed circuit that swept into a set of contacts when you changed among the VHF channels.

Somebody said this put the U's at a disadvantage because viewers couldn't be expected to fiddle with twitchy tuning.

So, and I forget whether it was industry or government, someone said let's make it a continuous run, thanks in part to refined circuit design that no longer required the mechanical selection of a specific tuned circuit.

Maybe the same could happen among AM, FM and IBOC on both bands. Just have a tuner that scans and takes pre-selects of your favorites. It's already what's going on among HDTV and standard definition channels.

[k4kyv]

I wonder if there should be a move to erase the segregation between AM and FM that exists at the receiver.

I read an article several years ago in RadiWorld  that suggested just that.  There would not be a conventional frequency dial on the radio, or an AM/FM switch.  Tuning would be accomplished using a scanner function, and listenable signals would be stored on memory channels.  Any mention of AM or FM during station ID would be kept to a minimum.

[AF9J]

It's definitely doable.  Most modern receivers that aren't ultra cheap, are software/firmware defined to some extent.  Considering that you can get receiver chips that will continuously tune from below the AM broadcast band, all the way up to UHF, or even the lower microwaves, all you'd need would be the software commands to make it treat AM & FM broadcast as one tunable band, with FM beginning where AM ends on the tuner.  It's about as organic radiowise as a cell phone is, but it's easy (and relatively cheap to do).  Even the decoding/demodulating between the different modes isn't that big of a deal.  It'll defininitely be "jack of all trades, master of none" performancewise, in the name of cost and space savings in the radio, but it's no big deal to do.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

It's not even a issue with the hardware inside the radio (e.g. the chips don't need to have full coverage from AM to FM ranges), it the control and user interface that Paul is talking about. There could be two completely separate radios inside the box, but if the user doesn't know that because the tuning knob makes it look/act like one composite radio, the deed is done. This should have been done a long time ago. Makes even more sense with stations digitally transmitting their format or even the song playing. The user would just search for what they want to hear and the radio would tune to the appropriate station(s), be they AM or FM.

The first AM IBOC broadcasts brought about some complaints on co-channel interference, that's why it remained a day time only affair. Apparently those problems have somehow been solved but I never heard exactly how?

LOL. Yea, they just decided to ignore the night time interference. The FCC's position is that outside their primary coverage contour, AM stations (even clear channel ones, or more appropriately former ones) cannot expect protection from interference. It remains to be seen how all this will work out in practice.

The FCC, NAB, EIA and other industry orgs need to push manufacturers to produce IBOC radios NOW. As you said Mac, if few have receivers to hear the fancy new digital AM or FM, it's not doing much good (other than making money for Ibiquity and some TX/transmission plant manufacturers). There are some IBOC radios out there. At one point, even Radio Shack was selling one. Also car manufacturers are starting to offer IBOC capable radios. Since those in cars are a large segment of the overall listener pool, there's hope.

[WA3VJB]

I see Boston Acoustics just discontinued its tabletop HD Radio. NO immediate announcement for a successor.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I see Boston Acoustics just discontinued its tabletop HD Radio. NO immediate announcement for a successor.

Let's hope the successor is a little more sensitive. Having played with the current model for a year plus, unless you lived in an urban area, very close to many HD stations, or had access to a good outdoor antenna, you weren't going to receive many stations, in HD or otherwise.

That said, the sound on HD stations was very nice on the Boston Acoustics radio. The most noticeable thing on most FM stations was the increased stereo separation and much less noise. I was only able to check out one AM station. The audio was much better (much more high end) and the noise reduced, and this was on a station with pretty good SNR on the analog side to begin with. Done right, HD could be a boon for AM audio quality.

This unit might be a possible fill-in for the Boston Acoustics model.

http://www.sangean.com/product.php?model=HDR-1

[W1DAN]

Hi all:

It will be interesting then stations keep their IBOC going at night.

Did you know the IBOC signal violates the RF spectrum bandwidth for an AM station that is currently in the FCC rules? First adjacent stations get whalloped in the daytime by the digital sidebands already. This is "offically" breaking the old rules.

A pet peeve I have is the term "HD" radio. This audio is bit-rate reduced data compressed perceptually coded and does not even come near CD quality. The term "High Definition" intimates something better than CD. They just done stole the term HD from TV!

Anyway I hope IBOC is successful in order to keep free over the air broadcasting alive.

I think Paul's idea of no band tuning will happen. It is happening with DTV, where the TV does not care what actual channel it is tuned to. The PSIP data in a DTV stream provides a branding ID. A CH 4 analog who uses channel 36 in the UHF band for it's DTV transmitter will add a "4-2" identification to the PSIP data stream. Your TV scans all active channels and gets this ID. You tune your TV to "4-2" and get the DTV signal.

Easy to do for digital radio too.

73,
Dan
W1DAN/4

[KC4HGH]

IMO, it's, "Create a need, then fill it" and FORCE everyone to comply...

Ah, I long for the days of Beaker Street while driving home from the second shift!

[k4kyv]

A pet peeve I have is the term "HD" radio. This audio is bit-rate reduced data compressed perceptually coded and does not even come near CD quality. The term "High Definition" intimates something better than CD. They just done stole the term HD from TV!

I totally agree.  I don't even think the term "definition" applies to audio at all.  Besides, a good quality analogue FM signal is already pretty damn close to CD quality.

Anyway I hope IBOC is successful in order to keep free over the air broadcasting alive.

I don't think it will amount to a hill of beans if they don't do something to improve the quality and variety of programming.  The same goes for FM.  Most listeners couldn't care less about the slightly perceptible improvement in FM quality.  They probably won't even notice it.  The only thing they might recognise is the hype, and imagine it sounds better, like the audiophools and their $600 power cords and oxygen-free speaker cable.

As for AM, if they don't break out of the talk radio/political propaganda dead-end, no-one will care.  After all, Lush Windbag would sound pretty much the same on hi-fi digital stereo or ham radio quality slopbucket.

What turns people off most with FM is the inordinate commercials/program ratio.  AM talk radio is just as bad if not worse.  Occasionally, I scan the AMBC band, and run across a talk radio topic that catches my attention.  But I just hear what amounts to a teaser discussion about the topic, when they interrupt the conversation to "be back after these announcements".  Then the hype for useless junk and useless medications goes on for an eternity, until the return to the topic at hand, and before 3 minutes is gone, it is back to another 5-8 minutes of commercials again.

On both AM and FM, I get tired of listening to what amounts to MF and VHF repeaters connected to satellites, rebroadcasting the same canned rubbish nationwide.

That's the main reason that 95% of my radio listening is to public radio.  We have 2 university FM stations here, one independent listener-supported NPR station, and its sister AM station.  The FM stations play classical music, jazz, blues, big band, bluegrass, oldies, about anything to suit anyone's taste at least some time during the week. The AM outlet runs "news and talk", and two of its main talk programs are Talk of the Nation and Day to Day.  They have interviews and call-ins,  and actually go into in-depth discussions of serious topics. Some of the hosts may show a bias during the discussion, but they let the opposing viewpoint be expressed, without spewing out pure unadulterated propaganda like the commercial AM's do. When they accept call-ins, the hosts are civil to the callers-in, not rude, and only very rarely cut someone off to shut him/her up, but even then, never simply because the person disagrees with the host.

I used to listen to SWBC, but now that has become about as useless as AM commercial radio.  The big time international broadcasters including VOA and AFRTS have virtually gone dark on shortwave, leaving 90% of the English broadcasts religious fundamentalist nut cases.  Even the one religious broadcaster that transmitted quality programming, HCJB, went dark in English several years ago, and now I understand they are shutting down altogether on shortwave because their property was requestioned to extend the runway of the Quito International Airport.  I used to listen to French programs from Canada and RFI, but they have also shut down.  Most non-English shortwave programs are in Spanish, with a few in Chinese, Arabic and a few East European languages.

If I could successfully rebroadcast streaming audio from the computer with full quality throughout the house and not be tethered to the computer, that's how I would do a lot more of my radio listening.

I would hate to see the heritage clear-channel AM's go dark, out of nostalgia if nothing more.  But as far as what's offered as programming, the entire AM band could shut down and the public would have lost little or nothing. 

Maybe if they shut it down, hams could get some of the spectrum.  Wouldn't it be cool if we had a 320m band?  There would be plenty of retired transmitters to choose from.  Maybe even entire transmitter sites, building, transmitter, antenna and all.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

If I could successfully rebroadcast streaming audio from the computer with full quality throughout the house and not be tethered to the computer, that's how I would do a lot more of my radio listening.

Take the audio out of your computer and dump it into one of the AM or FM low power transmitters. Should cover your entire house and probably some of your yard.

[k4kyv]

One local BC engineer/AM ham that operated a local daytime AM BC station used to retune the 'doghouse' for night time ham 160m use (very illegal at the time, not sure now?). Man did that big vertical ever work great on 160m, of course I know your quiet familiar with that kind of operation!

What was illegal about that?  I used to do the same thing in the mid 60's when I was CE at a local 1 kw daytimer on 540 kc.  The tower was 365' tall with full quarter wave radials for that frequency.  I built up a 50 watt transmitter just for the purpose (that was the 160m power limit at night back then).  The problem was I  couldn't hear anything.  That tall vertical picked up all the electrical noise for miles around.  I didn't know anything about 160m receiving antennas back then.  I tried for several nights but couldn't work anybody so I just gave up the idea.  A few weeks  later I received a SWL card from Brazil, saying I had a 5-7 signal in Rio.

I don't think there was anything illegal about doing that as long as the regular broadcast setup was up and running intact by s/on.  I just disconnected the circuit to the broadcast tuning unit and clip-leaded my own transmitter and tuner in its place.  When I finished it was always past midnight, so that was the "experimental period" when it was  legal to put the transmitter on the air for maintenance purposes even though it was after dark.  I would re-assemble the ATU and throw the BC transmitter on the air just long enough to make sure everything would be working properly at s/on the next morning.

[K3ZS]

I use a low power FM stereo transmitter to send internet radio streams around my property.   It sounds pretty good on the stereo, even with Dolby fake surround sound.  The one I have is called the "Whole House Transmitter", it has DIP switches to lock it to a frequency from about 105 MHz to the top of the band.   Other types have LCD display of the frequency.   I got the DIP switch one, because you can turn it on and off while it retains the frequency.    I have a stereo FM receiver just above the computer so I can monitor and adjust the audio level.   It works best if you adjust the level to just under the point that you can hear distorted bass.  Just as my TIVO has freed my TV viewing of the constant commercials, the transmitter has brought back the variety that used to be over the air broadcasting.   It seems to have a usable range of around 200 ft.

[W8IXY]

Hi Everyone,

The "problem" of adding the digital carriers to an existing AM broadcast is that: 1.  You must limit the analog audio to about 5kc, and 2.  The digital "hash" extends out about 18 kc either side of the carrier.

As a former chief engineer of the 1100 kc station in Cleveland, I know that signal well.  I have talked to the guys in Baltimore who run the 1090, and the guys in Charlotte who run the 1110, and they aren't looking forward to the nighttime hash.  1100 is non-directional day and night, while 1090 in Baltimore and 1110 in Charlotte both are directional at night, so they won't interfere with Cleveland as much as Cleveland will interfere with them.

Another "battle" appears to be with WOR on 710 from NYC, and WLW in Cincinnati on 700.  Some nighttime IBOC tests done several years ago showed considerable interference between the two stations.  However, the FCC, in its continuing attempts to legislate physics (BPL, IBOC, cell phones), went ahead to allow the adjacent channel interference.

When WJR in Detroit goes nighttime IBOC, I will say "goodbye" to being able to receive WABC and WSB here in Cleveland.

I work at Telos, Omnia, Axia, where we make the Omnia audio processors and other broadcast equipment, and I talk with engineers all over the USA.  Almost every engineer I have talked to, except for Tom Ray at WOR, holds little hope for successful AM IBOC, especially nighttime.  Also with a 32 kHz bit rate reduced audio stream, AM IBOC will come nowhere near to "FM quality".  We can make it sound remarkably good with our audio processing, but its still a 32 kHz audio stream.

I love AM, have built and maintained some high power transmitter sites and directional antennas, and would hate to see AM continue to deteriorate.  I really do hope IBOC will revive the AM band, but I wouldn't bet my retirement fund on it.  Also, AM programming generally stinks.  There is no radio left that appeals to the over 50 age listener any more (except for a few non-commercial low power channels), and AM is missing this audience.....people who grew up listening to AM, and will accept the AM quality.  I still remember listening to some great music fading in from 500 miles away, and doing an airshift on the 1100 here in Cleveland, getting calls from 1000 miles (and more) out.

Thats my rant for now.

73,

Ted  K8VPL

[k4kyv]

Probably got changed, since it never made much sense to begin with, but at one time an amateur could not legally use the antenna of a commercial broadcast station on 160m.

I never ever heard of such a rule.  Was it in the broadcast regulations, or in the amateur rules?  I always took it for granted that you could use broadcast equipment for anything you wanted (except unlicensed transmitting) while the station was closed down for the day. 

The CE who was over the corporate group that owned the station was aware of my use of the tower, and he didn't care as long as I didn't damage anything, or in any way affect the broadcast station during its regular schedule.  He even stopped by for a routine inspection of the facility while I had the rig set up in the transmitter building, and apparently trusted that I knew what I was doing.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I don't remember any rule like that either, Don. The CB radio service had power and height/quasi-ERP restrictions, but that's all I recall.

My old friend Warren, K1BKK used the 'Big Three' Eiffel-type towers at WDEV in Waterbury for 160 some years ago. He and one of the engineers (another Warren, I think) hooked up a Yaesu FT-101 or some other, easily-transportable transceiver in the transmitter/phasing hut and had a blast. The biggest kick they got was when they'd tell someone to 'hang on and we'll swing the beam around', then changed the phasing pattern. Surprised the hell out of a lot of folks. 'BKK, now retired, worked for the State in the electronics/radio dept, installing radios in state police cars and maintaining microwave links, etc. Had a huge EME array behind his house and forgets more in a night than I'll ever know. A very interesting guy, indeed.

[AF9J]

I remember the racket from LORAN on 160 Mack.  By the time I got on 160 (in 1986 - I didn't get my General, until my Senior Year of College, so I didn't get on 160 until then), LORAN was gone around here.  But I remember tuning above 1900, and hearing it blat away, from LORAN transmitters still operating in other parts of the country.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

There are more than a few hams using directional vertical arrays on 160 meters. I worked a guy this winter with a 5 tower array. Four-squares abound. The are just as directional on receive as transmit. But usually a beverage is a much better directional receive antenna.