Riley

[WA1GFZ]

Check out ARRL page. Give it some thought the next time you feel the need to send him a tape. I think he is getting tired of the cry babies.
Strap and Ignor works for me.

[WA3VJB]

Yeah, he's been saying that for a while, general category -- share the sandbox.

Just this morning I checked in on 3885 with a few guys, then tried to move down to 3873 or so. It was clear for a few mins, then some slopbuckets started up on the half hour, rusted shut with a VFO no doubt.

So, Joe WA2PJP and myself slipped down to 3865 or so, and sure enough, at the next 30 min mark two old buzzards on slopbucket started up 2 kc away.

What are ya supposed to do.

[Jim, W5JO]

My read is that he can and will do something about "intentional interference".  However if it is not intentional and the tape doesn't demonstrate an intentional act, there is nothing he can or will do about it.

If you have someone who states on the air they are trying to cause trouble for you, that the interference is identifiable, then katy bar the door.  My understanding of his comments is to contact each other and try to work out the differences.  I would do so and have tape rolling.  That is when they will make incriminating statements and you have it.

[k3zrf]

A time long, long time ago there was a dude intentionally interfering on 75M AM. He called himself the "computer". I believe his antenna came down some how. (circa late 60's)

Give Riley a break.

[KF1Z]

Yeah, he's been saying that for a while, general category -- share the sandbox.

Just this morning I checked in on 3885 with a few guys, then tried to move down to 3873 or so. It was clear for a few mins, then some slopbuckets started up on the half hour, rusted shut with a VFO no doubt.

So, Joe WA2PJP and myself slipped down to 3865 or so, and sure enough, at the next 30 min mark two old buzzards on slopbucket started up 2 kc away.

What are ya supposed to do.

Yep, your signal was fair up here in Verminmont this morning on 3885......
Just wish CYT hadn't told me that You guys weren't hearing us, and he and I doubled up with you while you were resonding to Bob KBW and Nick IR.......

Sorry 'bout that, would have liked to say hello.....

Followed you guys down after a bit, heard the slopbuckets complaining "  BAN AM  ".

Lost track of you....   foud QIX and W1IA just signing out of the crap on 3865....

============

Anyway.... William R.  gets too many tapes.....
After a while it probably gets annoying to his secretary....( actually the one who listens to them first I 'magine..... she/he answers almost ALL his email..... nearly NEVER 'signed' by him..)

Wonder if it would be better for us in the long run too send the mass amount of complaints to the OO's... or the OOC's.....
You can hound them into listening, and recording etc..... and then when they send the tapes on, it doesn't have as much chance of looking like "petty ham arguments..."


Just a thought.....

[WA1HZK]

SCREW THE TAPES UNLESS IT'S DEFINATLY ON PURPOSE.
CURE = BUILD REAL RADIOS    -TUBES WITH HANDLES-
HZK

[Bill, KD0HG]

CURE = BUILD REAL RADIOS    -TUBES WITH HANDLES-
HZK

I like that. Simple, short and sweet.

[ab3al]

better yet how about tubes with handles and a water jacket  cyamyan

[W1UJR]

Or take the route that I have taken for the last month or so, no slopbuckets at all.
-.-. --.-   -.-. --.-   -.-. --.-   -.. .   .-- .---- ..- .--- .-.   .-- .---- ..- .--- .-.   -.-  on 7040.10

I find the LID and foul language factor very low, and the civil operator the rule rather than the exception.
But during contests, no matter what the mode, any degree of sanity, common sense and courtesy goes right out the window!

Then I have to resort to my "Interference Wave-Trap" from the 1923 Radio Broadcast.

[W3SLK]

Bruce said:

But during contests, no matter what the mode, any degree of sanity, common sense and courtesy goes right out the window!

You know, I read the post on the AM reflector where someone posted Riley's address at Dayton. I was a little dissappointed with his comments with regards to corntesters. Almost like he gave them a free pass:

To the contesters: be more courteous. You are responsible for
the frequency you are operating on and realize that's true even when you
operate split. All frequencies are shared.


       To those who don't like contesters: lighten UP!! Contests are
short lived. Use the WARC bands. Wash the car. Cut the grass. Learn from the
contesters - and this applies to you Traffic net folks too - learn from
the contesters. They pass information a lot faster and more efficiently
than you do. Contesters are some of the best radio operators on planet
Earth. If the contesters operated at the same pace as some of the emergency
traffic nets, the contest would be over after the first few dozen signal
strengths were exchanged!

Make no mistake, I AM (pun intended) biased against corntesting. For the reason that most of them make the bands unihabitable for 48 hours. With regards to the use of the WARC bands, that is not an option unless you have a rice box or military rig. Just P&Ming.

[WA3VJB]

Mikey I fully agree with you -- Riley's remarks were a depressing endorsement of behavior that would be unacceptable from any other group.

His comments are also in lock-step with the position taken by the group in Newington. Their contest organizers invariably reply to complaints with dismissive remarks, "it's only a few weekends a year,"  and an invitation to go to the WARC bands.

How do you think they would react if their bedlam had been declared off-limits in the new, expanded phone portions of 75 and 40 meters?

[W1UJR]

Mikey I fully agree with you -- Riley's remarks were a depressing endorsement of behavior that would be unacceptable from any other group.

Right you are Paul, bad behavior is bad behavior, even if it is occasional.
Following Riley's argument, could I operate out of bands, if it was just once a month or so?

The WARC bands are not good for coms between local or regional ops.
Fine if I want to talk with someone on the west coast, or England, but not the next state over.

As far as passing useful information, and the argument that contesters are somehow more efficient at communication that amateur nets, well, that argument is dead right out of the box.
The typical contest exchange is less than 5 items of information, certainly much smaller than ever needed in an emergency. Nor are contest ops, speaking in general terms, patient, accurate or tolerate of repeats.
Shouting 599 and your QTH are hardly useful during a real emergency. How much success do you think someone with a real emergency would have trying to call for help during a contest?
Right, none.

And the last item, is power.
Good amateur practice dictates that we should use the minimum power to communicate, legal limit plus.
I'd dearly love to see contests take the route of running 100 watts or less, perhaps even 25 watts.
Then the event is a contest, using the skill of the op, and the efficiency of the station, to make contacts.
Anyone can dump $20 or 30K on the contest dream station and make contacts with the ease of a cell phone call, where is the skill with that?

No, I think Riley is mistaken, contesters in today's amateur radio service do not offer an example we should emulate. In fact, they are an example of what we should avoid, boorish, bad behavior, lack of patience, putting power before skill, and in general preventing the majority of amateurs, who do not participate in contesting, from enjoying the hobby. I fail to see little in contesting that justifies our use of valuable radio spectrum.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

My hotel at Dayton was full of contesters. Most of the seminars held there (starting on Wednesday – Hamvention started on Friday) were over-flowing with people. You could tell by listening to some of the over-heard conversations, that these people were very dedicated and enthusiastic with this part of amateur radio. Vendors and manufacturers love these people and cater to them at any opportunity. They keep their cash registers ringing and the contesters and DX’ers provide lots equipment operating feedback to them to aid in future designs.

Besides, for many amateurs, contesting is lots and lots of fun, and it’s a world-wide passion. High power – low power, who cares – everyone would try contesting at least once – it can add new meaning to your amateur radio lifestyle.

[WA3VJB]

these people were very dedicated and enthusiastic with this part of amateur radio

I don't doubt it a bit, Pete.

In fact, with the kind of treatment you are saying they enjoy from manufacturers, publishers, and membership clubs, they probably have a certain sense of entitlement to the bands, whenever and wherever they wish.

The combination means there is little incentive for them to respect all the other "enthusiastic" people who do not wish to participate in their contests.

The contesters need to be brought back to the reality of a shared set of bands.

No group in the hobby of ham radio should be treated as some sort of preferred class that can behave with impunity, exempt from having to get along with bystanders as the enforcement counsel otherwise recommends.

[K1MVP]

these people were very dedicated and enthusiastic with this part of amateur radio

I don't doubt it a bit, Pete.

In fact, with the kind of treatment you are saying they enjoy from manufacturers, publishers, and membership clubs, they probably have a certain sense of entitlement to the bands, whenever and wherever they wish.

The combination means there is little incentive for them to respect all the other "enthusiastic" people who do not wish to participate in their contests.

The contesters need to be brought back to the reality of a shared set of bands.

No group in the hobby of ham radio should be treated as some sort of preferred class that can behave with impunity, exempt from having to get along with bystanders as the enforcement counsel otherwise recommends.

Hi Paul,

I agree, 100 percent,--of course they(the corntestors) enjoy preferential treatment, that is
where the BIG BUCKS are, with "megabuck riceboxes" and antenna`s etc, etc.
Vintage radio cannot hold a candle to what most of these guys spend to compete with each
other for QSO`s, awards, and certificates.

                                                   73, K1MVP
 

[KF1Z]

Yep....all true....

An avid contester isn't going to buy a cheap rig (exept maybe for spotting other bands)
isn't going to use cheap coax..... will have some real cool antenna setup/tower.
Is going to pay top dollar for connectors, power supplies....you name it....

Doubt you'll find many clip-leads on their transmitter  !!  :-)

Well...that's all fine and good..... if they want to waste... I mean spend their money that way.... that's up to them....

BUT.... I certainly don't have to bow down in front of them, or off the band just because THEY want to operate their $20k station for 48 hours!!

Sure, I may be FORCED to because they make having a decent qso impossible.....

But I won't just say, "well, there's a contest on... better go to 17meters...."

A qso, is a qso...... using a frequency is using a frequency.... whether it's a causual conversation to find out how Harry's colonoscopy went, or whether it's corntesting....

I would certainly shut up, and move off if there's an emergency... and someone needed that particular section of band however..... I think we all would.....


I wonder in what context a question, or statement was made to William R. H. to get him to make such a statement?

Perhaps a letter needs to be written to ask Him to explain......

[flintstone mop]

The only way to strap is to come on with 5KW and do not tell anyone why the ether heats up when it's your turn in a QSO.
Fred

[Pete, WA2CWA]

these people were very dedicated and enthusiastic with this part of amateur radio

I don't doubt it a bit, Pete.

In fact, with the kind of treatment you are saying they enjoy from manufacturers, publishers, and membership clubs, they probably have a certain sense of entitlement to the bands, whenever and wherever they wish.

The combination means there is little incentive for them to respect all the other "enthusiastic" people who do not wish to participate in their contests.

The contesters need to be brought back to the reality of a shared set of bands.

No group in the hobby of ham radio should be treated as some sort of preferred class that can behave with impunity, exempt from having to get along with bystanders as the enforcement counsel otherwise recommends.

I’m not sure that the majority of contesters feel they have entitlement to the entire bands for a contest activity, but sometimes vibrant enthusiasm can cause excessive drooling on an amateur band “table”. Contesting tends to be a very focused activity. Operators use receivers that can be tweaked down to miniscule amounts of receive bandwidth, and then hit the frequency with a large burst of high power and generally directional antennas. Their goal is quantity and generally not high quality of transmission.

If you look back over the last ten years of contesting, several contesters have been cited for infractions. One recent multi-op contest group actually pulled their entire score from a contest activity when, within the club, there was some concern about operating infractions.

If you go back to the 50’s QST’s or CQ’s Mags., you’ll see some of the same type of contest operating activity that we have today. The aura of “top-dog” contester was just as alive back then as it is today. The difference today is that lots of contesters use much better equipment then the “average” SSB ham or the “average” AM’er. Your average HQ-129X or NC-300 type receivers will not cut the mustard in a crowded band of today’s contesters. Of course, one can always stop by their local high power contester, and with arms outstretched, yell out to the chief op, Can't we all get along!".

As far as your phrase, "No group in the hobby of ham radio should be treated as some sort of preferred class", you'll have to take that up with the vendors and manufacturers that fully support the contesting part of amateur radio. Contesters spend huge sums of money keep their stations up to par with their contesting rivals. Why shouldn't vendors and manufacturers give them preferred treatment? Contesters take their equipment to remote spots in the world, bang the heck out of them for 48 hours or more, and maybe come out with a top score. That's an advertisement that's hard to beat when you're selling equipment and it's your equipment that they're using.

[WA1GFZ]

Whie on the government dole one needs just enough work to justify budget but not enough to keep you busy.
When I was a kid we had a neighbor with two sons the same age as my brother and I. When 1 ratted the other out both got spanked.

[WA3VJB]

As far as your phrase, "No group in the hobby of ham radio should be treated as some sort of preferred class", you'll have to take that up with the vendors and manufacturers that fully support the contesting part of amateur radio.

I didn't know the vendors and manufacturers were telling Riley what phrases to utter, but you're more inside the group than me, so I defer to your opinion.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

As far as your phrase, "No group in the hobby of ham radio should be treated as some sort of preferred class", you'll have to take that up with the vendors and manufacturers that fully support the contesting part of amateur radio.

I didn't know the vendors and manufacturers were telling Riley what phrases to utter, but you're more inside the group than me, so I defer to your opinion.

No amateur radio operator should get a "free ride" if they're consistently causing interference to on going QSO's even during a contest. If they are identifiable, they should be documented and reported to the FCC. However, in the heat of a contest or DX moment, sometimes common sense gets skewed to the back seat. Given the sometimes large amounts of contest operators, it may seem that every ones common sense might ride the back seat at some point in time.

[W1UJR]

Given the sometimes large amounts of contest operators, it may seem that every ones common sense might ride the back seat at some point in time.

While I acknowledge that Icom/Yaseu/Kenwood develop their megabuck rigs for the contest set, this has nothing to do with the right of contesters to infringe on the privileges of other amateurs. Does someone who spends $200K on a Ferrari have any more right to the roadway than I do in my humble Volvo? And yes, perhaps technology in said high end sets does trickle down to more pedestrian models, but Pete, I don't think you are saying that that excuses bad behavior, right?

We've all taken various stands on the contester v. contester position, but I wonder what the real numbers are. Does anyone really know what percentage of the amateur radio community regularly engage in contesting activity? It would be useful to know this number, and also the source. If it were over 10%, with the possible exception of Field Day, I'd be greatly surprised.

One thing I am certain of, I sure that most of us would agree that number is far south of 51%.
So, a small minority clearly infringes on the rights of the majority and receives special treatment.
Why that's a shocking as releasing Paris Hilton from jail early!
Where's Jesse and Al Sharpton fighting for the rights of the oppressed?

Ok, the horse is dead, and I'm done beating. 

[W3SLK]

Getting back to topic though, other than the 'Contesting' exception, I thought the rest of his address was pretty good. I hope that Riley does indeed read this BB so he can digest what people think. Pete, I have know doubt about the enthusiasm that corntesters exude while on the bands. Unfotunately, their focus becomes so minute that they don't see what else is going on. And that is the part corntesting I detest!

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

The biggest problem with Riley's comments on the corntests being 'short-lived' is the fact that short-lived usually equals an entire weekend, or even half of the weekend. And the fact that there are corntests many weekends. Just glancing at my CQ Classics 2007 calendar I find:

January - 3 weekends
February - 3 weekends
March - 2 weekends
April - 0
May - 1
June - 2
July - 2
August - 2
September - 3
October - 1
November - 3
December - 2

Granted, some are VHF, RTTY and so on, but this is only a list of CQ and ARRL corntests. Call me silly, but it still looks like a pretty large chunk of time to be called 'short-lived'. Field Day is the biggest joke of all, claiming to be an emergency preparedness drill, with a class for those who want to compete from home using commercial power. Huh. 

[k4kyv]

I find CW quarmtests tolerable, mainly because I operate more phone that CW and can still run AM while the quarmtest is on.  Slopbucket quarmtests are the worst of all, because the band becomes jammed full of arrogant ego-maniacs who turn all the knobs fully to the right, flat-top the hell out of their leenyars, and sit there yelling "CQ Quarmtest" at the top of their lungs like idiots, and seem to dare anyone to use any part of the phone band for any kind of non-quarmtest activity.

Probably the most obnoxious slopbucket quarmtest of all is the "Pennsylvania QSO Party".  I can tolerate field day, because it is in the middle of static season and the band is usually full of noise anyway.  I couldn't think of a better time to have a quarmtest.  There are a few who actually set up a simulated emergency station,  but most just find it an excuse to get out of the house away from the XYL on a weekend night, and drink beer (Bud Lite, of course) with the "gang".

CW Sweepstakes used to be somewhat meaningful when the exchange data simulated a 3rd party message, and genuine signal reports were given.  Now on CW every report is 599, and every slopbucket report is "five-nine", even if they have to ask for a repeat of the info several times.  What a joke!

Slopbucket Sweepstakes is about as inane as they get.

I have a few times, just for fun, listened long enough to figure out the procedure for various quarmtests, joined in on CW or AM (by carefully zero-beating the slopbucket they were completely unaware that I was on AM), and given signal reports that were not five-nine or 599.  That really throws some of them off guard.  I have even heard slopbucketeers come back stammering into the mic because they didn't know how to respond to a "four-seven" report. 

The best way to handle quarmtests is to tread softly until you hear a clear spot open up, then turn up the wick and use a big stick (mine is 127' tall).