A pricey power cord

[WBear2GCR]

Forget about the price.
Forget about the claims.
Forget about the "purity" of the metals.
Forget about that stuff.

Ok, don't forget about it, put is aside for a minute.

If you change the way the AC power cord is made - and I do not mean to just change the gauge - in a really clean low distortion hi-fi system, with a person with "normal" hearing acuity, and maybe a discerning ear (you figure out what that is), one can often hear somewhat rather startling changes in the timbre and "shape" of the stereo soundfield!

For example taking a decent DAC and changing the power cable often results in a rather confounding change in what is heard. It's not imagination or wishful thinking.

One way that "we" (friends in the hobby and myself) have experimented with this is to use coax for the wire. There are different schemes for using the braid and the center conductors. Of course we can easily see how coax might be different than the usual zip cord, and different than the spiral twist three wire standard AC power cords.

The discussion about how this may work revolves usually around RFI, radiated noise (from the internal PS of the unit) and things like that. Also there apparently is some energy reflected through the transformer from the switching transients and current pulses (from the charging caps).

I think it would be instructive to get into a lab with a good Faraday shield and hyper clean mains and see if the cause can be isolated between external RFI and internal re-radiation (which ends up on the ground side).

In any event, it seems like an awful lot of very insignificant stuff can and does cause repeatable and audible differences in very well designed and executed audio equipment to a greater and lesser degree.

I can give an analogy that might help to explain how this is possible:

Take a dead flat black velour square placed on a table. sprinkle a whole lot of salt on it. Easy to see, but hard to notice a single bit of salt. Now clean it off, put just a few bits of white salt. Easy to notice. That's what happens, you clean up the sound and little bits are easy to notice.

Some companies hawk wares that are based on this reality and to some extent prey  on those who have large amounts of discretionary income to blow, mostly for looks and prestige or so it seems - but none-the-less more often than not for some sonic change or perceived benefit.

I know this doesn't sit well with most of you reading this, but even so that's what's goin' on.

                   _-_-bear

[k4kyv]

But please explain how that 6' power cord can make any difference whatsoever, when the vast majority of the length of the power circuit path is supplied via standard, fully oxygenated, big-box store, consumer grade, unshielded copper house wiring, running from the entrance panel to the mains outlet where the "high end" power cord is plugged in.

Furthermore, the entrance panel is supplied by ordinary cu or al wire, often over-loaded, running from the nearest pole transformer to the electric meter. And the 11 kv to the pole transformer is supplied by miles of crappy, multi-spliced aluminium wire, with flaky corroded clamped connections, generating line noise all the way from the substation to the pole pig.

[WBear2GCR]

Don,

I empathize with what you said. You are not the first one to say that. I too say that!

The problem is that no one knows precisely what the heck is going on. No one. Or if they do, they are not saying. It's not a case of believing something into being - it is clearly audible when it works.

The best case to be made may be not in terms of what is on the power line coming in but to see the power line as a bi-directional line. In which case the power cord might be seen in a similar fashion to the function of a choke in series with a B+ line.

So, you may ask, why not put a choke there?
Indeed, why not.

The so called "Corcom" units, the RFI scrubbing input modules are frequently used, but even in that case changing the power cord seems to change what is heard in the speakers. NOT IN EVERY CASE.

Some people have suggested that the AC power cord acts like some sort of "tuning" stub...

One would think that after one uses soft recovery rectifiers, run through multiple stages of filtering that this could not possibly make any difference whatsoever? Yeah, but it does.

Fact is that people can and do hear differences in the sound when different types of regulators are used, and with various topologies of filtering. It may have something to do with what resides on the ground side, I do not know that answer.

Oddly enough many people hear and report that active series voltage regulation is inferior to shunt regulation following series regulation, and both are inferior to your basic C-L-C-L, etc... and definitely the LC or CL following any regulation is better than not... we're talking insanely small amounts of noise after that sort of regulation!!

With all of this, it helps to keep in mind that you are actually listening to the power supply - the amplification (if it is an amplifier) is only adjusting the level of the power supply rail to the load. (yes, there is common mode rejection, but that is imperfect and under dynamic conditions much more difficult to quantify).

                    _-_-bear

PS. as I have said before, if this is of any interest, or you want to consider building or modifying any audio gear, there are excellent discussions on these ideas and circuit design, engineering and theory on http://www.diyaudio.com DiyAudio.com. Take a look!

[W2VW]

How often do the people who work at the power plant bathe?

[W7TFO]

With all of this, it helps to keep in mind that you are actually listening to the power supply - the amplification (if it is an amplifier) is only adjusting the level of the power supply rail to the load. (yes, there is common mode rejection, but that is imperfect and under dynamic conditions much more difficult to quantify).

                    _-_-bear

If that be the case, would not the best sound, free of crap from power lines, come from a big set of batteries, making the necessary DC without the use of inverters or connected to a charger?

Quiet, pure DC.  What every amplifier loves most...

[Steve - K4HX]

But the plates of the battery hinder the patina of the sound field, reduce width and mute transients. Maybe some oxygen-free stiffening capacitors could help. Of course, the battery would need to be charged with a low distortion charger. Otherwise, some of the electrons would not be phase-aligned and any benefits of the battery would be lost.

The magnetic field of the earth also has an effect. Most tests do not account for this so most claims of improved sound are invalid.

[k4kyv]

It's not a case of believing something into being

Isn't religion supposed to be off limits to this BB?

[K1JJ]

Can you imagine how different the audiophile industry would be if it were govt regulated like other industries such as brokerage firms, banks, drugs, meats, construction and others?  FDA, OSHA, SEC, CFTC, etc.

Bubba would have a lot more company  ...  

T

[WBear2GCR]

W7FTO -yes. Been done.

Especially with preamps.
Power amps, has been done.

Turns out however, batteries are NOT free of noise!

Long discussions have taken place on this topic and what to do about it.
Turns out that there are some combinations of regulator circuits that are measured with less noise...

Ah well... camels through the eye of the needle...

                  _-_-bear

[The Slab Bacon]

Even if all of that snake oil and hogwash did actually work at what point do you hit "the point of diminishing return??

I still think that the sole purpose for coming up with some of that szht is simply to relieve the audio enthusiast of a bloated wallet.

c'mon what in the hell are "audio grade" knobs going to give you for several hundred bux a piece? ? ? ?    

[k4kyv]

I still think that the sole purpose for coming up with some of that szht is simply to relieve the audio enthusiast of a bloated wallet.

I had a chat with someone in the "high-end" amplifier business at Dayton this year, and he chuckled as he pointed out that the customer base for his $80,000 tube-type amplifiers largely includes the likes of NBA and NFL stars.

c'mon what in the hell are "audio grade" knobs going to give you for several hundred bux a piece? ? ? ?

We need to make a clear distinction between audio enthusiasts and audiophiles, as opposed to audiophools.

[The Slab Bacon]

Hey, Bear,
               Since you are our resident expert on all things audiophool, here is one for you to ponder..................

Does the oxygen free copper wire make for better antenners? ? ? ? ? ?   

Sounds like this could become an entrepeneurial opportunity to me   

[WBear2GCR]

Slab,

Obviously not... antennas are pretty much first order devices, at least in terms of what the purpose/result is. Not much subtlety, either you hear the signal or you don't, either the other station hears you or doesn't.

Audio and hearing is a different game. Vision is a different game. Some folks obsess about the quality of a picture on a video screen, the color too.

Photographers used to be into grain and grain structure of emulsions, etc...

Race car drivers deal with getting their tires just right. The suspension tuning.

Tennis players with string type, tension and racquet brand and model...

etc.

Definitely there is a point of diminishing returns. Definitely. However, in audio as you get rid of distortions and what I'll call "confounding information" and/or manage to reconstruct the soundfield closer to what we could call a "naturally" occurring one  (the so-called original performance, or as if it was happening in the room), small things suddenly are obvious and seem to jump out. Sort of like if you cleared off Vaseline from a lens, you can see more.  

That this happens is what opens the DOOR to 'snake oil'. That this happens and is the goal or 'holy-grail' in audio becomes clear once you start down the path, so everyone wants the holy grail for themselves. Some people try to buy expensive, thinking that is the true way, others do it DIY, others try to do it with clever combination's of less expensive gear, etc...


Don, the guy at Dayton... nevermind.

                    _-_-bear

[WA1GFZ]

If H field radiation is getting into your equipment from a line cord, then you have crap audio cables and crap equipment.

[Sam KS2AM]

"You eat a lot of acid, Miller, back in the hippie days?" 

Repo Man (1984)

[WA1GFZ]

We have an audio fool at work. He never designed anything worth a crap.
Any board he ever designed was filled with rework wires and dead bug parts

[k4kyv]

Don, the guy at Dayton... nevermind.

                    _-_-bear

A lot of the folks who frequent this board know him, and some will probably figure out who it is.  But I don't want to open an unnecessary can of worms, so I'll let it go at that.

[WBear2GCR]

If H field radiation is getting into your equipment from a line cord, then you have crap audio cables and crap equipment.

perhaps one would think so... but that means that some mighty bright and clever designers, including those with advanced degrees in EE don't know how to design. If you think this is the case, then there is a wide opening for you to make a ton of money simply by showing this and then publishing a paper in JAES, you will have lots of people wanting to hire you as a consultant, etc. You can retire on that.

It's easy to say things like this and to be a skeptic, especially when you do not have first hand experience in with what goes on with audio gear.

This is not saying that there is gear that is not that well designed or could be designed better...

              _-_-bear

[Opcom]

For me the point is reached where I can't tell any difference or improvement but they want more money for 'it'. That's where it has to stop because there is no further benefit. I guess for individuals it is individually different.

[k4kyv]

Any apparent "improvement" in the sound, caused by "high-end" a.c. power cords, wooden knobs, speaker cable "break-in" and similar rubbish, is most assuredly due to the placebo effect.  That's why they run extensive "double-blind" tests on pharmaceutical products before they are released to the market. Some people, even those with serious ailments, report real improvement after taking sugar pills or saline injections.

How many impartial, objective, double-blind tests using valid scientific method have been demonstrated to show positive results with any of the above? If any such data exist, please post some links.

Remember, Dr. Brinkley had thousands of satisfied customers who had endured his Goat Gland Transplants, who reported "astounding" outcomes. Of course, other patients died from infections and/or immune system response to the foreign matter introduced into their bodies.

At least with audiophoolery, the only real damage done occurs to the wallets of the customers, who apparently have enough money for it not to matter anyway, and the vendors simply laugh all the way to the bank.

[WBear2GCR]

Don,

We all should know the examples you cited.

As I said earlier try to disregard things like price.

So-called "double blind tests" are highly problematic in audio. It is entirely different than with pharmaceuticals, they are not equivalent.

The biggest problem in the double blind audio tests is that it is extremely difficult to set up the test environment and then find a way to find a way to determine if what is purported to be tested for can in fact be detected (reproduced) in the first place. This is no joke.

Those things that are sold under false premises or those that may work but are sold at inflated prices do not change the underlying facts - those facts include the reality that some seeming minor things can and do make an audible change - in some systems, and in some instances. That's where the focus should be, not on charlatans or con men. No more than in amateur radio where there have been a fair share - those bad apples do not change the truths or realities.

Try to not paint the whole hobby or field with a big broad brush just because the are some bad actors, or even many bad actors.  Ok?

                  _-_-bear 

[Steve - K4HX]

In other words, let’s just throw science out the window and take the word of a few audio enlightened individuals, most of which are hawking some product. Elmer Gantry anyone?

[KX5JT]

Getting a beer and some pretzels..... 

[WB2CAU]

Bear, I'd like to know what other esoteric components besides the power cord that you consider important to good sound reproduction that most of us would ignore?

Eric

[KC2ZFA]

He who makes marketable cable using room-temperature superconducting wires will be able to sell at $10⁶/inch AND have plenty of customers. I'm in the wrong business