Slopbucket cornholetesters

[AB3FL]

wtf.  Last night there was the (ab)normal roundtable around 3885.  Several of you heard my valiant on the air (yeah).  As I was signing off I kept listening.  Around 11 or so, some slop started just below everyone.   CQ CQ CQ  UR 59 agn.....A-Holes.  Why must slop alway bother ongoing QM QSOs.  We, AMers, pretty much stay around the same watering hole.  Why is it that sloppers feel that they must interfere?  I simply do not understand.  75/80M is a huge band.  Go somewhere else.  This just annoys the piss out of me.  We stay in 15kc of 75M and they have the other 385KC.  With all the newer rigs doing auto-notch, they can notch out multiple carriers and continue being jackasses.

Rant over

Tom - AB3FL

[w5omr]

 Why must slop alway bother ongoing QM QSOs.  We, AMers, pretty much stay around the same watering hole.  

Why?  Why stay in the same place, and perpetuate the battle?

Why is it that sloppers feel that they must interfere?  I simply do not understand.  75/80M is a huge band.

Yes.  Yes it is, and anywhere that phone operation is allowed, AM operation is allowed.  There is no magic 'window' where only AM should be... thats a myth that has never existed in reality.  3.885 is merely the 'Calling Frequency' for AM on 75m.  There's the whole, big, 'rest of the band' to go wander around in.  EVery AM'ers motto should be
"Have VFO - Will Travel!"

This just annoys the piss out of me.  We stay in 15kc of 75M

Why?

[AB3FL]

I do agree that AM IS allowed anywhere that phone is allowed.  I think AMers stay around 3885 as a courtesy to others.  AM does use more bandwidth than slopbucket.  It just seems like slopbucketers have nothing better to do than bother AMers

Tom - AB3FL

[W3SLK]

Geoff said:

Why?

Because after a while you get tired of being a doormat and its time to make a stand! Who's to say that where you go the same thing will happen? Unless you are a ham and have been living in an 'anechoic chamber,' its pretty much common knowledge where the AMers congregate. Anyone that 'cozies', (for lack of better words) up to an ongoing AM QSO is hell bent on intentionally QRMing them. Just my 5˘ worth.

[AB3FL]

Geoff said:

Why?

Because after a while you get tired of being a doormat and its time to make a stand! Who's to say that where you go the same thing will happen? Unless you are a ham and have been living in an 'anechoic chamber,' its pretty much common knowledge where the AMers congregate. Anyone that 'cozies', (for lack of better words) up to an ongoing AM QSO is hell bent on intentionally QRMing them. Just my 5˘ worth.

Amen!

[KF1Z]

Doesn't much matter if you're running AM, SSB, FM, RTTY, PSK  etc, etc.

During a contest someone else will fire up too close to you, and cause interference and headaches...

It's not an "AM thing".
Just the way it is.

Doesn't even have to be a contest on... just the ratio of inconsiderate idiots is higher during a contest.

Because when you're using AM, you are occupying 3 or more times the bandwidth than SSB, so that's <3 times more likely you'll get interfered with !

 

[KX5JT]

Bruce tells the truth.  Corntesters don't even have any regard for each other unless they haven't worked each other for that particular contest.  Talk about testosterone selfishness!

[AB3FL]

Doesn't even have to be a contest on... just the ratio of inconsiderate idiots is higher during a contest.


 

Ain't that the truth

[WA3VJB]

I think AMers stay around 3885 as a courtesy to others.  AM does use more bandwidth than slopbucket.

Tom - AB3FL

I have two responses:

The activity of contesting uses far more spectrum than a roundtable QSO on AM.

The "courtesy" you mention is seldom reciprocated by people using incompatible modes and activities.


In the past ten years or so, Tom, I've observed enough friction to conclude there is plenty of spacing available on 80 and 40 meters to improve the enjoyment of an AM QSO.  For those of us on AM, we have a responsibility and the regulatory support to operate anywhere there is a clear spot on the dial in the "phone" portion of the band.

The FCC a couple years ago re-apportioned the sub-bands on 80 and 40 meters to more accurately reflect levels of "phone" activity. If we now fail to distribute our activity across the allocated phone segments, we have no one to blame but ourselves when congestion undercuts conditions.  

People on incompatible modes who cause interference no longer have the excuse that they were unaware or unfamiliar with AM activity on 80 and 40 meters.  The tremendous growth in our part of the hobby outpaces that of digital modes on HF, and our scheduled events often outdraw the number of participants you see listed in the logbook tallies for other modes published in QST magazine.

When you look at daily activity,  the hours of air time and the number of stations across the country taken together mean the AM Community has the largest regular presence on 80 and 40 meters of any group, net, or other identifiable association of operators.

This circumstance alone should convince AMers they have the basis to operate anywhere in the phone bands that their license allows. It raises our stature to the same sense of entitlement that contesters, Dog-Xray people, and CW buffs use to justify their use of spectrum.

We should settle for nothing less than any other mode or activity.

[W2VW]

Please keep in mind any contester who would do that is probably not very smart.

There are plenty of contesters who would never think of wasting time on a frequency used by yay yammerers.

Painting all these people with one brush isn't accurate.

[K1JJ]

Here's why ssb corntesters gets so close to AMers...  (for better or worse)

1) They lack knowledge concerning the bandwidth required for peaceful AM operation and the amount of interference they create to AMers when corntesting close-in.  They assume all voice signals are ssb - and the norm in corntests is to get as close as 2kc to each other. Some are using 1.8khz filters.  The bands are so noisy with QRO ssb activity, they fail to identify AM sidebands extending out as a warning to stay back.

2) Using a good ricebox receiver, an ssb station can listen 3kc below a loud AM station (on LSB) and have little interference due to the tremendous opposite sideband suppression of their filter system.  There is no carrier tone, just an AM sideband that they can easily work through. Listen sometime on your own ssb receiver and see.

3) Attitude - Adjacent neighbor courtesy is thrown out the window during corntests. It's get in and make the contacts regardless of who is near you. If you can operate and hear the other station, anywhere is fair game.

We may not agree with it, but that's how it is.


One RX solution is to use an SDR (SoftRock, etc) that lets us hear only one AM sideband - the sideband that is farthest away from the ssb offender is chosen to listen to.      

T

[WA3VJB]

Here's why ssb corntesters gets so close to AMers...  (for better or worse)

3) Attitude - Adjacent neighbor courtesy is thrown out the window during corntests. It's get in and make the contacts regardless of who is near you. If you can operate and hear the other station, anywhere is fair game.

We may not agree with it, but that's how it is.

I don't completely buy it, Tom.

Does the "DX Window" get just as overrun as the rest of the band during a contest?

[K1JJ]

Of course I don't agree with it, Paul.  I'm trying to imagine contesting through the biased eyes of a corntester when I say "anywhere is fair game."

And yes, the 75M DX window was bedlam this weekend.  No one could work conventional DX even if they wanted to.  What's the solution? It's an age old question.

Personally, I don't participate, but corntesting doesn't bother me at all. I use my filters, play in the quieter areas and turn up the power. Haven't had a conflict with one in years.

T

[KM1H]

I use my filters, play in the quieter areas and turn up the power. Haven't had a conflict with one in years.

You cant beat cubic inches either...big always wins

[k4kyv]

What were QuaRMtesters doing up on 3885 anyway?  I thought this weekend's QuaRMtest was some kind of world-wide DX affair, so I would have expected them to have been hanging out down lower in the band, below 3800, since outside of Region 2 (the Americas) the ham band stops at 3800.

40m was pretty much wiped out all the way down to 7050 or so.  Some of the QuaRMtesters  were calling CQ up in 7175-7200, but announcing that they were listening in the vicinity of 7050-70, wasting two voice channels instead of one, and naturally not listening on the channel they were transmitting on.

And Paul, the FCC a few years ago did re-apportion the sub-bands on 80m to more accurately reflect levels of "phone" activity, but they fell short on 40m.  For one thing, the expansion on 40m was based on the situation that existed then, when broadcasters wiped out everything above 7100, and the entire amateur band in many parts of the world was limited to 7000-7100.  With (most) broadcasters now moved above 7200, hams in other parts of the world now have full access to 7000-7200.  One could say that's likewise the de facto band in N. America due to the continued broadcast QRM, except during a few daylight hours when skip is short and no transcontinental propagation exists, which allows us to use 7200-7300 in the morning and early afternoon for regional and sometimes local contacts.

Hams in the lower 48 are still relegated to the back of the 40m bus, allowed to use phone in only 75 kc/s of the de facto 200 kc/s of band, while CW and much of the digital stuff stays below about 7060, leaving only a handful of CW and digital stations and a few foreign SSB signals between 7075 and 7125.  That segment is usually almost devoid of activity while 7000-7060 and 7125-7200 may be highly congested to the point that it is difficult to find a clear spot.

Now that most broadcasting is gone from the 7.1-7.2 segment, the special privilege enjoyed by US hams in Alaska, Hawaii and overseas territories like Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands and Guam to operate phone in 7075-7100 no longer serves any useful purpose.  Phone  should be allowed in at least half of the de facto band, all the way from 7.1-7.2, and I would be happy to see the phone band expanded at least down to 7075. The CW community seems adamantly opposed to any further expansion of the phone band, despite the fact that the CW band is so lightly used between 7060 and 7125. Even during major CW QuaRMtests, there is little CW activity to be heard above 7080.

As a compromise, to better reflect present usage since the broadcasters moved off 7.1-7.2, I would propose that the special 7075-7100 phone segment for offshore US territory be relocated to 7100-7125, and the privilege to use it be extended to all US amateurs, regardless of where they reside.  

As far as AM operators feeling obligated to limit ourselves to the Ghetto between 3870 and 3890 as a "courtesy" to slopbucketeers, Bullshˇt!  Remember, AM existed on the ham bands long before SSB was even heard of by most hams, mostly limited to commercial frequencies for overseas telephone calls prior to the development of transoceanic telephone cables. This reminds me of when money-hungry developers purchase farm land out in the country and build sub-divisions near a pre-existing, noisy airport or race track, and then as the new residents move in, they whine and complain about the noise that they should have known was already there.

Finally, I hear very few slopbucket signals on any of the phone bands narrow enough to pack three of them into the space occupied by one normal bandwidth AM signal.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

The answers remain simple:

 - Restrict the number/duration of contests

 - Restrict participation to the General Class portion of the bands only. This not only provides access to virtually all hams who want to work the event while providing 'clean' portions of the bands for those who do not, it also provides incentive to upgrade for those who are General class.

Simple. 

Even better would be to restrict contesting to those areas that need more utilization, like VHF and above. Those are the frequencies most in threat of being sold off in the future. I seem to recall changes being made to the license structure back in the 90s exactly for this purpose. If it's serious enough to warrant that, surely it's serious enough to fill those frequencies will all contest activity.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

The answers remain simple:

 - Restrict the number/duration of contests

 - Restrict participation to the General Class portion of the bands only. This not only provides access to virtually all hams who want to work the event while providing 'clean' portions of the bands for those who do not, it also provides incentive to upgrade for those who are General class.

Never going to happen. Contesting has been a staple of amateur radio activity since the beginning of time. Restricting the number of, the duration of, the restricted frequency operating range, etc. serves no purpose for the many, many amateurs, both domestically and internationally, who enjoy the virtues and fun of contesting, just to satisfy the minority of amateurs who P&M about contesting. Last night, above 3900 was virtually free of any contesting with lots of empty spaces to hold a QSO. Likewise 160, was void of many signals with lots of places to operate. WARC bands and 60 meters are always contest free, and when there's an HF contest, the VHF bands are contest free. If amateurs can't figure out how to QSY, and zero-beat each other,  to less occupied portions of amateur radio bands, I have no pity for them.

Even better would be to restrict contesting to those areas that need more utilization, like VHF and above. Those are the frequencies most in threat of being sold off in the future. I seem to recall changes being made to the license structure back in the 90s exactly for this purpose. If it's serious enough to warrant that, surely it's serious enough to fill those frequencies will all contest activity.

There are a number of VHF/UHF sponsored contests throughout the year and shorter duration "Sprints" by band also throughout the year. Best time to find lots of VHF/UHF activity, besides the occasional band opening, is during a VHF/UHF contest.

I had great fun last night operating 80 and 40 meters in the contest. Best fun I had since the last contest I operated in. The Flex is a marvel to use when contesting and DXing especially in the ability to view a good chunk of spectrum. Eye, hand, finger, ear coordination is a must. Definitely a lot more fun then the typical ramble...ramble....ramble QSO's.

[Steve - K4HX]

Contests have not been a staple of amateur radio since the beginning of time or now. The reality is that only a very small minority of amateurs operate in any contests, let alone many. The consideration given contests is not congruent with their importance to the amateur population at large.

Any other activity that trashed the bands and displayed such poor operating practice, splattering signals and rampant use of illegal power would be decried by the ARRL and other self-important types. But these same groups turn a blind eye to this behavior in contesting, even to the point of not disqualifying stations who made contacts outside their frequency allotments. What a joke.

[KX5JT]

Aren't WARC bands immune from these events?  Maybe we should start building 17 meter plate modulated rigs.

[Steve - K4HX]

True and a good idea. Unfortunately, no WARC bands replicate 160 or 80 meters. 

[W1ATR]

The answers remain simple:

 - Restrict the number/duration of contests

I think there would be a better chance of getting the AM'ers to restrict their transmission lengths to under 10 minutes.  It's just not possible.

[KM1H]

Aren't WARC bands immune from these events?  Maybe we should start building 17 meter plate modulated rigs.

My ATC (Navy ART-13) just about lives on 17M AM. Ive also operated the Viking II CDC there using an HP-606A as the VFO.

[KX5JT]

Aren't WARC bands immune from these events?  Maybe we should start building 17 meter plate modulated rigs.

My ATC (Navy ART-13) just about lives on 17M AM. Ive also operated the Viking II CDC there using an HP-606A as the VFO.

That's awesome Carl!  I could put my ricebox on 17m AM for now.  Not nearly as fun but I still love AM enough to do it.

[N8UH]

Aren't WARC bands immune from these events?  Maybe we should start building 17 meter plate modulated rigs.

My ATC (Navy ART-13) just about lives on 17M AM. Ive also operated the Viking II CDC there using an HP-606A as the VFO.

That's awesome Carl!  I could put my ricebox on 17m AM for now.  Not nearly as fun but I still love AM enough to do it.

I'm down with trying out some 17M AM too! I can throw the rice Oat-box (A K3 isn't technically a rice box  ) on 17M AM and give it a try with yall!

On the subject of the Corn-test... well... I have a confession...

I participated in this one (and the CW-DX contest a couple weeks back, and Field day for 5 years or so, and... ) and had a great time. Sure, it's not for everyone, but was a ton fun to me! I helped a new ham friend of mine get a 40M antenna up yesterday, and you should have seen his face when he worked his first DX station in a high-stress contest atmosphere. Priceless. But he's hooked, and it was fun for all involved!

And let's be honest... It's great to see the bands just bubbling away with activity, instead of the great swaths of barren spectrum we see on some of bands.

AM gods... please don't revoke my meager AM credentials for this confession! 

What it all boils down to is this: Contesting is just another activity enjoyed by amateur radio operators - just like CW, or Data, or AM or slopbucket, or... and in my book, if an activity like contesting keeps people enjoying the hobby, then it's good in my book. Different strokes ya know! 

And if ya'll want to get back at the slopbucketeers you could just throw more AM contests... 

[WD5JKO]

I got an idea. My buddy Geoff, W5OMR with his 160 watts carrier 80M AM mobile could pay some visits to some of those guys who choose to run 10KW on 3878. Hell park in front of his house, and call CQ for hours and hours during a contest night... Maybe if several offending stations are clustered together, get several birds with one stone...

Geoff, you up for that? :-)

Jim
WD5JKO