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Author Topic: modulation transformer confusion!  (Read 8412 times)
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VK2BDR
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« on: July 30, 2006, 07:10:17 PM »

New to this forum, new to really beginning to enjoy AM. I am trying to make an AM TX with a couple of plate modulated 807's ( only allowed a bit over 100 watts in VK) and have had no luck with finding a modulation transformer. Recently I stumbled over " 100 volt line transformers". These are available with multiple secondaries up to over 5kohm, 8 ohm primaries, quoted frequency responses of 40Hz to 20Khz -+3db, power ratings up to 150watts RMS and when tested at 1k volt the insulation stands up fine. Does anyone have any advise as to if these are usable?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
De VK2BDR
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KB2WIG
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2006, 08:59:01 PM »

There is a discussion on using power transformers on the " the am window" site; Written by Tim  wa1hlr.   lots of good dope on the site

http://www.amwindow.org/tech/htm/tvtomod.htm


  There is also a small discussion on using line transformers on this site; use the search above......   gud luck  klc
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2006, 09:25:58 PM »

It doesnt take much to mod a pair of 807's at 100w. If the ipedances are somewhere around 5k, and the turns ratio is about right it will prolly work. Put a known ac voltage on one side of the tranny and and see what you get on the other.
A pair of 807's in parallel, modulated by a pair in push-pull should require about a 2:1 stepdown ratio (full primary to full secondary). If you get that and the insulation can handle your plate voltage, it just might work. However, you may want to rework the laminations to handle the dc bias on the windings. You dont want it to be cross laminated.
                           The Slab Bacon
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2006, 12:12:25 PM »

yea Mate,
I did the power transformer conversion for an AF-67 TX and there is lottsa positive peaks and with the heising hook-up, really decent low end. Check out the info, it's pretty easy to figure out.

Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
flintstone mop
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2006, 06:24:42 PM »

Just a side note,
If you don't mind outboarding the extra iron for the power transformer and the heising, you won't have to pay Peter Dahl. If you want to keep everything inside the box, then you will have to do some creative engineering. You might get lucky and find a Ranger mod transformer.

Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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Don
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2006, 04:26:46 PM »

You will need a reactor and blocking cap since the transformer is not designed for DC passing through the winding and therefore is highly unlikely to have a gapped core.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

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VK2BDR
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2006, 09:43:50 PM »

Thanks all for your informative responses. It is a pleasure to to find a group that doesn't treat newbies as dopes!
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2006, 08:58:27 AM »

That's because we're all dopes. Welcome to the club! Grin
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WBear2GCR
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Brrrr- it's cold in the shack! Fire up the BIG RIG


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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2006, 11:07:10 AM »

You can forget for the benefit of practical use the entire "impedance ratio" thing. The simple idea is that the modulator if it makes 100% modulation must produce a peak (+) plus swing and peak (-)minus phase swing of exactly = to the B+ on the finals!

So, if you have 750vdc B+ on some 6146s, then you need to swing peak-to-peak 1500vac of modulator signal.

Since generally one would use a Class B or AB modulator, that implies a 750vdc B+ on the CT of the primary of the mod iron.

After that, you need to be sure that the mod tubes will supply the requisite POWER to back up the intended voltage swing... which brings us back to proper impedance matching, but in practical terms IF the modulator produces the requisite swing without distortion, that's all you really need to know!



Fwiw, the reason that power transformers can be considered for this application is ONLY because AM phone generally does not require really good frequency response. Few power transformers will have flat response beyond 5-10kHz., if they get that far...

Being in VK land, you can still mail order some Hammond mod iron from Canada, or look at what is offered in Taiwan and Japan... many transformer companies there...

Also, consider hand winding your own! Given the simple ratio required for mod iron, you can likely use the same gauge wire for the primary and the secondary, simply "stack" short windings on the bobbin, and connect the wires aftwards to create the dual primary and single secondary!  For raw material you buy the magnet wire, get quad insulated if you can... find a used large size power tranny with nice thin lams, hopefully from a mfr you can find out what alloy lam was used (best case), some appropriate "fish paper" or similar material, or resuse the existing bobbin, mylar tape for interwinding insulation layers... and for final finishing an old pressure cooker, varnish (go to a motor winding shop/company if you can to get this done) of the right type, a vacuum source (air compressor intake) to vacuum impregnate the tranny for insulation.

Done!

You won't do worse than the power tranny... maybe way better.

    Grin

      _-_-WBear2GCR

IF you happen to have a big hi-fi output transformer you can simply drive the "speaker side" (4-8ohms) with a power amp of appropriate power and use the secondary in a Heising type set up (no DC) on the secondary, to drive the finals... you can build in a suitable solid state amp should you desire that. Imho, that power tranny could likely be set up as a nice choke...
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2006, 11:38:02 AM »

Bear,
       The modulating AC outpoot from the mod tranny has to be equal to the DC voltage to the final plate. At 100% the plate voltage on the final has to swing from double down to zero. If the modulating voltage was double the final plate voltage it would swing to negative the amount of the plate voltage. this would cause a nasty new set of problems. 2x the static plate voltage= 100% positive, 0v = 100% negative modulation peaks. That is why you usually use a transfoma with a 2:1 stepdown ratio when using a pair of tubes in shove-yank to modulate a similar pair in parallel and running off of a common plate supply. The plate to plate swing pf the P/P modders (in theory) should end up being double the static plate voltage.

                                                                 The Slab Bacon
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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2006, 09:27:04 PM »

I was talking about the peak to peak swing being equal to 2x the static DC on the final. Which is what you said... if you work the PushPull back to the Z:Z ratio, per tube (1/2 primary) to secondary, convert that to N:N (which equals voltage), you'll see how that works in practice... which is what we're talking about.

Pretty sure I have that bit correct.

       _-_-WBear2GCR
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_-_- bear WB2GCR                   http://www.bearlabs.com
K1JJ
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2006, 10:43:04 PM »

That's because we're all dopes. Welcome to the club! Grin

Remember that old 50's-60's QST cartoon of one ham sticking another in the arm with a hypo needle? The stickee is smiling and says,  "Thanks for the dope, OM!"

Anyone have that pic to post? 

It would make a great avatar.  Grin

T
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2006, 12:15:54 AM »

Yea, I remember that cartoon. I'll have to see if I can find it in one of my old QSTs.
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