The AM Forum
April 29, 2024, 09:09:41 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Links Staff List Gallery Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 9 Days left to file - -Have you filed your comments???  (Read 15431 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
W2INR
Radio Syracuse
Founding
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1174

Syracuse Radio W2INR


WWW
« on: January 28, 2006, 08:34:21 PM »

This is just an reminder that the filing deadline is just around the
corner for commenting on 11306. The filing deadline is Monday Feb 6,2006.

INMO the biggest problem here was the ARRL's decision to file
this proposal without going to it's members for their input. I notice
when they want contributions or are trying to sell us something they do
a mass mailing but as an member I was not asked for any formal input nor
was I sent any info on their decision to do this.. From what I have
heard many found themselves in the same situation. Many in my local club
did not know anything about this proposal until I brought it up !! 
There is something wrong with this and we need to let the ARRL know that
we are part of the process.

If we accomplish anything a large turnout on the comments should send a
message to the ARRL that we should be and insist on being part of the
procees when it comes to how our Service/Hobby is managed.

Please take a few minutes and submit your comments on the proposal.
Whether your comments are pro or con our participation is the important
part.

I am still offering to submit comments on your behalf. If you wish for
me to do so please send your comments along with your call ad legal
address as listed on QRZ to

  stoprm11306@amfone.net

Thank you for your time and thanks to the many that have already shown
their interest and concern for our hobby by commenting.

Gary/W2INR
Logged

G - The INR


Amateur Weather Station KNYSYRAC64
Creator - owner - AMfone.net - 2001 - 2010
Founding Member - NEAR-Fest
SWLR-RNØ54
k3zrf
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 604


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2006, 08:52:29 AM »

INMO the biggest injustice done here was the ARRL's decision to file
this proposal without going to it's members for their input. I notice
when they want contributions or are trying to sell us something they do
a mass mailing but as an member I was not asked for any formal input nor
was I sent any info on their decision to do this.. From what I have
heard many found themselves in the same situation. Many in my local club
did not know anything about this proposal until I brought it up !! 
There is something wrong with this and we need to let the ARRL know that
we are part of the process.

Sad. Just like insurance companies. They bombard you with promos, sales persons, phone calls at dinner ultimately vacuuming your wallet. Then when it's your turn to get what you paid for you get handed empty promises.

Save your money folks and put it toward your hardware.

That's why I DIDN'T join again.
Logged

dave/zrf
A closed mouth gathers no foot
Herb K2VH
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 556


Pennsylvanian shaking hands with Yankee


« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2006, 03:18:30 PM »

Done, just now--January 29, 2006 at 3:15 pm.

Herb
Logged

K2VHerb
First licensed in 1954 as KN2JVM  
On AM since 1955;on SSB since 1963

"Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar."
--Edward R. Murrow
W8KHZ
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 113



WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2006, 05:24:57 PM »

Ok, mine is in..... lets keep 'er rollin'....
Logged

Currently running a big homebrew transmitter (pair of 250THs modulated by a pair of 810s) paired up with a National HRO-50.  I also run a BC-610-I / NC-2-40D combo which is a lot of fun too.

Catch you on 75M AM!
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10057



« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2006, 09:22:57 PM »

I'm still working on mine.  My daughter's accident sidetracked me for 1 1/2 weeks, but still plan to get comments in on both petitions before the  deadline.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
W5AMI
Founder of amfone.net
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 233


Poke Greens


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2006, 01:00:09 PM »

Sent mine today Gary.  Short and sweet...

Logged

73 de W5AMI - Brian
Gates BC-1T from KVOC the "Voice of Casper" in WY
Tom WA3KLR
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2122



« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2006, 06:15:23 PM »

Gary said this in the first posting above - "INMO the biggest problem here was the ARRL's decision to file
this proposal without going to it's members for their input."  I've read several people saying this.

I recall starting to investigate the 9 kHz. mean power badnwidth deal in August 2004.  I have spectrum analyzer photos from then.  This could only have been triggered by my reading of this AM 9 kHz. bandwidth stuff from an ARRL announcement.


I posted in an AM Forum - "Bandwidth Recommendations" topic, dated April 14. 2005 :

"I participated in a Technical thread on measured AM transmitted bandwidth last August and September (2004). Unfortunately that thread and most all others on this bulletin board were lost a few months ago..."

"...When the announcement of the impending rule came out and I posted my results here and there was no outcry. So I presume people are largely content with the situation. Of course this is based solely on the response, or lack of, to my postings last September (2004).   But people are not obligated to response to this forum. They may have written their opinions to the FCC and/or ARRL hopefully."

- - - - - - - -

In approximately April 2005, Pete WA2CWA posted that the ARRL announces their bandwidth proposal.

This is what caused the Communications Think Tank to form I believe, and do their own petition submittal directly to the FCC.  Their petition pdf'ed in the bottom of the RM-11305 comment listings is date stamped by the FCC as "RECEIVED June 20, 2005".  The ARRL petition RM-11306 is date stamped "RECEIVED NOV 14 2005".

So besides the ARRL mentioning AM mean power bandwidth of 9 kHz. in approximately August 2004, they put their draft of their petition to the amateurs in April 2005 and didn't submit their final version to the FCC until November, a 7 month waiting period for feedback from the amateur fraternity.

Who is missing what here?

I submitted my comments to RM-11305 and RM-11306 at 6 p.m. last evening.  My RM-11305 comment was finally posted in the FCC website comments today at 4 p.m.  I believe that my RM-11306 comment was posted about and hour later.  I believe that the FCC is visually checking all of them before posting.

Please look for my filed comments and give feedback. 

To spot my comment listing -
Date received - 1/31/06
My name is Thomas O. Bohlander
Quakertown PA.

Only 4 days left gentlemen.  This is your last opportunity to make a big difference. 
Don't be like one of those people who don't vote and then piss and moan about George Bush worse than everyone else.
Logged

73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
WD8BIL
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4410


« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2006, 07:16:07 PM »

Quote
So besides the ARRL mentioning AM mean power bandwidth of 9 kHz. in approximately August 2004, they put their draft of their petition to the amateurs in April 2005 and didn't submit their final version to the FCC until November, a 7 month waiting period for feedback from the amateur fraternity.

Are you then saying Tom, that we had plenty of time to contact the Leaque with our concerns ?

The Leaque waited for 7 months and did not express a desire for comments. There was never a place on their webpage that said "click here to file you comments". For all we knew they had filed in April and the FCC was just holding it.
Logged
Tom WA3KLR
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2122



« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2006, 08:46:44 PM »

Hi Bud,

Yes, there was plenty of time to communicate with the ARRL, as much as 15 months if you go back to the bandwidth announcement in August 2004.  One can contact most of the ARRL personnel by phone, e-mail, snail mail, fax.  You can contact your section people, division directors, and top officers.  E-mail is usually hamcall@arrl.org.  I’ve had prompt e-mail correspondence with Jim Hainie and the W1AW station manager in the past.  I believe Jim initiated the e-mail with me, I believe due to something I posted in the early stages of the BPL fight.

If there isn’t a nice website button to push, that is no excuse for not trying to communicate with the league.

Ed Hare, W1RFI of the league, did a lot of work on investigating and fighting BPL.  We were fortunate to have him participating on the board here.  It may have been the old original AM Window board at the time.  But he was driven away by people who took the opportunity to be too harsh with him, as I recall.

Now, how the league responded to you or treats you when you try to talk to them on what became RM-11306 is a different issue.  I can’t comment on that or speculate if that would have done any good.

Bud, you were the only person who responded and submitted spectrum analyzer data on AM transmissions when I solicited for such data on this board.  A number of other AMers reading this board have spectrum analyzers.

From our 2 datas, the 9 kHz. BW appears reasonable, should RM-11306 go through.  We never got data to the contrary that would support needing to push the “9” number up.

My personal opinion is that RM-11306 will be defeated, but that remains to be seen.  There is the NPRM yet if either petition goes through as is.

As far as a conspiracy theory that the FCC had the ARRL petition earlier, held onto it, and later stamped it, I can't say.  But I seriously doubt that is the case.

You are one of the authors of RM-11305.  So hats off to you who took the time and effort to create and submit a petition to the FCC in these matters.
Logged

73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
W2INR
Radio Syracuse
Founding
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1174

Syracuse Radio W2INR


WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2006, 09:49:33 PM »

This whole process is new to me . I have never commented on a proposal up to this point in time. It has been an interesting learning process.

I am an ARRL member and I fit more in with the majority of hams than the politically savvy hams.

I can say that in the last 15 months I have received emails and snail mail for renewal, contributions and other ARRL offers but I have not recieved anything about this proposal. I have received nothing asking me for input or telling me where to go give it. I go to the website and you have to look hard for the info on this proposal. It is not on the front page or index that I can see.

No excuse mind you but just plain fact.
I am of the mind set that it is our responsibility to be involved in our hobby/service.  It is also my mind set that that the ARRL should make this process easy for all to participate in.

When a presidential election comes up we here about it months before. We are called, we get mail, we get email, it is everywhere. We are given every opportunity to particapate to the point that if we don't it is our own fault.

In 2004 the 9khz was a relief for AM if the FCC passed the 3khz maximum bandwidth for the proposal submiited on ESSB limiting phone to 3khz. It was not about restructuring the entire amateur bandplan by bandwidth .

It was mentioned in June you said and then in November, I don't know but if I wanted everyones participation you would know I wanted it. That just didn't apply with the ARRL in my opinon.

 The ARRL has less than 30% of the licensed hams as members. These are interesting numbers. I do not know how these numbers playout in reality but I would be working my ass of to improve those numbers.

In management I have learned that if you want people to buy into something they need to feel part of it. People want to know there input is going to be heard and maybe even used. The ARRL could be doing better at this in my opinion and frankly for people that are into communications I think they have much to do to correct this.  They seem to more geared towards money than radio.

If the ARRL really wanted participation from all they could have communicated that to all. They have to rally the troops to get the support our hobby/service really needs.
Logged

G - The INR


Amateur Weather Station KNYSYRAC64
Creator - owner - AMfone.net - 2001 - 2010
Founding Member - NEAR-Fest
SWLR-RNØ54
Tom WA3KLR
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2122



« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2006, 01:18:44 PM »

Hi Gary and all,

In search of facts, I went through my copies of QST from December 2004 through January 2006 for mentioning the bandwidth/digital petition.

I came up with these QST entries:

December 2004 – page 71, In Brief – “ARRL digital communications study deadline looms:” … (20 lines in one column)… starts out about the ad hoc committee on ARES communications and digital comm….A little over half way down the article “The ARRL Board of Directors resolved at its July 2004 meeting to encourage the deployment of e-mail via Amateur radio “as exemplified by Winlink 2000” to meet the needs of served agencies and others involved in providing disaster communications.  To participate, visit the ARRL Digital Communications Study Web page, www.arrl.org/digtest.

February 2005 – I spotted this 4 paragraph article, not on RM-11306, but directly relates.  Eludes to behavior the FCC will have in judging RM-11305 and RM-11306.  “Happenings” section page 83, FCC News – FCC Denies AM, SSB Bandwidth Petition: …RM-11740…filed May 27, 2003…FCC said a majority of the 160 members of the amateur community who commented on the petition opposed the concept. …Below 28.8 MHz. the petition recommended a max. 5.6 kHz. bw for AM (A3E)…The FCC said its existing rules were adequate to address any noncompliance.  It also said the petitioners failed to show that there is “a particular problem” with stations using AM.

April 2005 – page 9 “It Seems To Us…” (2 full columns)  “Narrowing the Bandwidth Issues”…At the January meeting the ARRL Board of Directors resolved several of the outstanding issues concerning our planned petition to the FCC to regulate Amateur Radio subbands principally by signal bandwidth rather than by mode of emission.  The petition will not be filed until they are also resolved – probably in the later half of the year, and certainly not before then.  To recap briefly, in July 2002 the Board decided that the ARRL would petition the FCC to regulate subbands by bandwidth instead of by mode “at the earliest practical opportunity”….What led to the decision was set out on this page in the September 2004 issue….Detailed information on the draft is available at www.arrl.org/announce/bandwidth.html. ...The purpose of the September 2004 editorial was to invite members to review and comment on the work that had been done to that point.  Hundreds of you took us up on the offer and provided reams of very useful input.  When the ARRL Executive Committee met last October 16 (2004) to review your input, the committee found considerable support for the concept of the petition……If you have any thoughts you would like to share, please send them to bandwidth@arrl.org.  Your comments will be shared with your own Director and will be reported to the Executive Committee.  To repeat: the petition has not been finalized and definitely will not be filed prior to the July meeting of the Board.  Once adopted, FCC rules tend to remain in place for many years.  It’s worth all the time it takes to get it right. – David Sumner, K1ZZ

June 2005 – page 72  “HAPPENINGS”  ( one and ½ pages article) “ARRL Executive Committee Readies Bandwidth Recommendations” …there is a chart - their new version of the classic multi-color allocations for the 9 HF bands, by bandwidth.

September 2005 – page 24 “CORRESPONDENCE” - “REGULATION BY BANDWIDTH” – I think that you have done a wonderfully thoughtful job and that, if implemented, the ARRL proposed changes will serve Amateur Radio for many decades to come.  Thank you for your hard work on behalf of the Amateur Radio community.  TOM MCGUIRE, NO9S Davenport, Iowa

 - Page 55 – major article, 3 pages “ARRL Board Adopts Modified Regulation by   
    Bandwidth Proposal, by Rick Lindquist N1RL and Dave Patton NN1N.

October 2005 – page 9 “It Seems To Us…”  (2 full columns) “Self-Regulation”…Many of the concerns expressed about the Board’s action since July have reflected the view that we need the FCC to adopt and enforce rules to protect us from one another.  There is another way to address these concerns: through effective band planning processes within the amateur community.  One problem with relying on the FCC Rules to define subbands is that it is very difficult and time-consuming to change them….. But to be honest , our internal processes are not as effective as they should be and need to be improved.  The ARRL board clearly acknowledged this in July.…It is a formidable challenge to put together band planning processes that will earn the broad support of the Amateur Radio community, but it is important that we do so.  The need exists now, and will exist irrespective of what ultimately happens to the concept of regulation by bandwidth. – David Sumner, K1ZZ

(I’m just the messenger here and I’m not pro-ARRL; reporting some of what was printed in QST.; de KLR.)

Over the magazine period I mentioned, they certainly didn’t run this up the flagpole from a casual reader’s point of view until the major article in the September 2005 issue.  But it wasn’t a secret either, or just a very recent development.  It’s been on-going for many years.  99.99 % of us don’t bother to read “It Seems To Us…” in the front of QST or the board minutes published monthly on their website, apparently.

Years ago, as I recall, QST used to publish the minutes of the monthly board meetings.  Not now that I see.  Perhaps the minutes are on their website?  Yes.
ARRL website – the horizontal row of yellow boxes in the upper left corner of their home page – click News/Bulletins box, then click Announcements box selection.

I wonder if our resident ARRL watchdog Pete WA2CWA is reading the monthly minutes?

David Sumner is the secretary for the minutes.

For example, an excerpt from minutes of the ARRL executive committee, number 478, Fort Worth, Texas, October 22, 2005 :
2. At Minute 36, July 2005 Meeting of the Board, the Executive Committee was instructed to give final review to a draft petition for FCC rule making to regulate amateur subbands by maximum bandwidth rather than by emission mode, with the petition to be filed at the committee's discretion. The Executive Committee had received a request from two Directors and two Vice Directors requesting postponement of the filing of the petition to permit the Board to revisit the possible provision of subbands below 29 MHz in which digital emission bandwidths greater than 3.5 kHz would be permitted. The Committee discussed both the procedural and the substantive aspects of the request, as well as other considerations with regard to the timing of the filing. After discussion, on motion of Mr. Roderick, it was unanimously voted that the General Counsel is directed to file the petition as drafted in accordance with the Board's instructions, once final review has been completed.
- - - - -

It’s been a team effort here on the AM Forum sharing information and developing our opinions because the 2 petitions encompass a lot of details.  The digital robot ramifications of RM-11306 would have escaped me if not for the writings of Howard Teller which I spotted on QRZ.com and posted on the AM Forum under the QSO topic of “Some RM-11306 Information”.

Gary, I’m not trying to knock you at all here.  I think that most of us are guilty of some level of apathy.  This may be due to job and/or family duties, one’s desired focus within the broad field of ham radio, whatever.  The ARRL is a commercial entity and has it’s own agenda that it follows steadfastly.  But it appears to me that it is open with its path, even if somewhat slippery. 

In the future, it is our duty to keep an eye on what is going on in the ARRL via reading QST “It Seems To Us…”, “CORRESPONDENCE”, “HAPPENINGS” (which includes FCC News), besides the specific articles that grab our attention, and reading the board minutes posted on the ARRL website.

We need to provide feedback to the appropriate league people in a timely manner when deemed.  Others need to appreciate Pete when he posts ARRL news, instead of slamming him.  I don’t think we want to drive him away like Ed Hare, Lab Manager and RFI  investigator for the ARRL was.

Only 3 days left gentlemen to file your comment on RM-11305 and RM-11306 with the FCC.
Logged

73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
WD8BIL
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4410


« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2006, 01:29:07 PM »

Some good research Tom. Thanks !!

I think our main concern ( or wonder) is the dismal turnout by the Amateur community when these issues come before us.

If 10% of the QST readers were even somewhat aware of what's happening there should be far more respondents than we now have.

Logged
W2INR
Radio Syracuse
Founding
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1174

Syracuse Radio W2INR


WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2006, 01:32:04 PM »

Actually Tom I don't take this thread as putting anyone down at all. In fact what is going on here is exactly what more amateurs need to do.  That is discuss their viewpoints and bring many of these issues to the mainstream average ham. I for one am one of those but I have learned through this process that it is painless and can help not only our cause(AM) but the amateur radio community in general,  Good stuff OM.

I respect Pete, even if he has yellowee audio Wink, because he speaks what he believes in, we could use more of that. I find it refreshing over the typical pissing and moaning with no action which seems to be more of the norm these days.

We will survive all this and many like myself will be more alert and ready the next time the league and our hobby needs our help.

For those that have not filed and feel they do not wish to learn the FCC filing system please submit your comments before noon on Saturday to

stoprm11306@amfone.net

and I will file your comments for you.

G
Logged

G - The INR


Amateur Weather Station KNYSYRAC64
Creator - owner - AMfone.net - 2001 - 2010
Founding Member - NEAR-Fest
SWLR-RNØ54
WD8BIL
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4410


« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2006, 02:56:30 PM »

Mark.... it's best to drawup your comments on some word format then copy and paste them directly into the comment section on the FCC filing page.

Keep the lines to 70 characters or less.

It should have no links or attachments.

Logged
Tom WA3KLR
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2122



« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2006, 03:24:38 PM »

I wrote my comments in Word, which also has good spell checking.  It's not good to type in live and then have the FCC reading misspelled words; not impressive.  I have the full-blown Adobe Acrobat here so was then able to pdf my Word file.  I submitted the pdf file.  That way, there is no format change in the lines typed.  What you created in Word is exactly what will be re-read on the FCC's site.
Logged

73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
WA3VJB
Guest
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2006, 03:39:27 PM »

Spell check is a good thing for credibility and politeness.

The ECFS system will take most conventional word processing file types, and will convert them to their standard, the Adobe PDF.

What's cool about their system is that you can use embedded charts and photographs and it will also incorporate them.

I remember a certain rock garden full of illuminated lanterns that was photographed and used to illustrate why a Petition for mandatory segregation on 160 meters would not be a good idea.

huh-HA !
Logged
Tom WA3KLR
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2122



« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2006, 02:19:09 PM »

1.  Phil, you may hate the ARRL, but we can't ALL turn our backs on them yet.  Until they don't exist, some of us need to be watching them and challenging what they do.

2.  As I read some of the petition comments filed on the FCC site, I am embarrassed by the number of hams who are misspelling "amateur".
Logged

73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
Pete, WA2CWA
Moderator
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 8169


CQ CQ CONTEST


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2006, 05:40:54 PM »

Someone mention my name??
My audio; I only use "necessary bandwidth".
Spellings on the RM's; some sad stuff there; anatuers should learn to use a spel checker.
Facing the wind is sometimes not the answer
ARRL Publications are my guides.
Ya know things are getting weird when DUQ is playing with "software defined" rigs


Old Guys Unite - Moving the Amateur Radio Service Forward With New Technologies[/color]
Logged

Pete, WA2CWA - "A Cluttered Desk is a Sign of Genius"
KA8WTK
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 874



« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2006, 05:48:15 PM »

Hey Pete....that's spell  Wink
Logged

Bill KA8WTK
WD8BIL
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4410


« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2006, 06:11:48 PM »

Quote
My audio; I only use "necessary bandwidth".

Define "necessary" !!

I use the bandwidth necessary to sound good ..... to me !!

Yup.... us amachurs shud lern to spell gooder !!!
Logged
Bacon, WA3WDR
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 881



« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2006, 11:08:03 AM »

Well, I finally got around to commenting on RM-11305 and RM-11306.  The comment date is 1/6 (the next business day), and I hope it's in time.  It occurs to me that January has 31 days...

If you have not commented, do it now.  Tomorrow may be too late.
Logged

Truth can be stranger than fiction.  But fiction can be pretty strange, too!
W1ATR
Resident HVAC junkie
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1132


« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2006, 08:53:45 PM »

Both done

Hopefully I got 'em in just in time. I had to keep them both short at one paragraph each. The more I typed, the more I started to get a major hair across my ass, so I cut it short, (rm-11305) before the feds come knockin on the door.

73
Jared W1ATR
Logged

Don't start nuthin, there won't be nuthin.

Jared W1ATR


Click for radio pix
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
 AMfone © 2001-2015
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.089 seconds with 19 queries.