AM'er Musicians

[Glenn NY4NC]

Sorry, but having a blind fold on is meaningless when you can hear the difference with or without. I had no attachment or bias towards these amps I tested. How is it supposition when distortion on solid state amp "A" sounds completely different then distortion on tube anp "B", Speak for yourself, it's supposition on your part because you haven't actually performed these comparisons. I have.

Mike,

Don't let advertising fool you into thinking a line 6 modeling preamp can sound exactly like a tweed amp. That's false hype. 
 

You might be surprised how many times you'd be fooled doing double blind tests on guitar amps. It's too easy to let your preconceived notions, previous experience and what you see/know, let you "hear" certain things. Then again, with your finely tuned ear, maybe you would pick out tube from solid state. But without such a test, it's all supposition.

Direct, side-by-side comparisons, unless done in double blind fashion, not scientifically legitimate.

[Glenn NY4NC]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that we are talking about, specifically, INTENTIONAL guitar distortion.

Forget about my experience....look at it this way, is there "scientific data" to back up "the differences in sonic qualities" between a Les Paul, and a Stratocaster? maybe not... can millions of people hear the difference between these? absolutely yes!...

So what's the point? that you don't need scientific data to prove there is a definate audible difference between tube and solid state guitar distortion.

Why do you need technical data to prove what's already obvious to your ears?? 

I've seen a lot of claims regarding the differences in the sonic qualities between tube and solid state amps, but little scientific data to back it up.

[WBear2GCR]

Now fellas, I didn't read the entire thread, but...

You can easily measure the difference in the spectra of distortion between tube amps and solid state amps.

If you want to scratch ur head, read Earl Geddes recent paper on the subject of the audibility of distortion - actually he calls his measurement technique for quantifying this the "Gedlee Metric". Apparently it closely follows some work done by the BBC back in the 70s (also Journal published).

Wherein the audibility of distortion is NOT directly related to THD or IM at all.

As far as the use of solid state amps for Guitar amplification, they *must* be protected against clipping in practical use. The newest stuff from Behringer, and others that have this "amp modeling" stuff in them are DSP controlled, and you couldn't clip that amp if you tried... DSP ya know.

If you actually clip a solid state amp it won't sound a bit like a tube amp in clipping at all.
That does not take a double blind test. Night and day.

Hi-fi amps, MIGHT take DBT to prove that a reliable difference can be heard.
But if you read about the Gedlee Metric, you'll start to realize what the real deal is.

Of course, if ur hearing is physically limited (age or trauma or both), or you have average (to be polite) system & speakers, you will not be able to discern any difference in most cases, nor does it make a difference... those magazines that trumpet the lack of audible difference using DBTs seem to have a certain blindness when it comes to certain objective matters in setting up such tests, so their results are valid for the tests made, but can not be or should not be generalized into some theory or stronger position.

These matters have been discussed into the ground on various "audiophile" forums where there are numerous adherents to the "there is no difference" point of view, and those who feel otherwise. Invariably, when I have been involved in the discussion it comes down to the above paragraph...

       _-_-bear

[W3SLK]

Glenn said:

Don't let advertising fool you into thinking a line 6 modeling preamp can sound exactly like a tweed amp. That's false hype.

I never used a Line 6 amp. I'm basing that on people I know that use them and tube amps. Are you kidding me? I'm a traditionalist! I'm still working on a design that will incorporate an 829B in the output of an amplifier. They are cheap, plentiful, and have been used in audio service. I haven't a clue as to how one (or two) would respond in a guitar amp but I know they would have the audiophools drooling over it

[Glenn NY4NC]

Thanks Bear, I knew I'd eventually hear a voice of reason 

As you said, Hi-Fi amps are a different matter but when it comes to intentional guitar distortion (overdrive, whatever you want to call it) the difference is very obvious.

I play different styles of guitar (country, jazz, blues, etc) but my primary style is progressive rock, plenty of distorted lead guitar. Many times over the years I have tried switching to solid state guitar amps. always with the Mfg's claims of... "our new wiz-bang mosfet yada yada distortion circuitry sounds exactly like tubes..." A big fat lie. After trying a bunch of these solid state "tube replacement amps" over the years, I eventually stopped falling for the the hype and stayed with tube amps and pre-amps.

You can easily measure the difference in the spectra of distortion between tube amps and solid state amps.

If you actually clip a solid state amp it won't sound a bit like a tube amp in clipping at all.
That does not take a double blind test. Night and day.

Hi-fi amps, MIGHT take DBT to prove that a reliable difference can be heard.
But if you read about the Gedlee Metric, you'll start to realize what the real deal is.

       _-_-bear

[Glenn NY4NC]

Hi Mike;

An 829B triode guitar amp? VERY COOL!!!  I thought about building an amp with some of the 833's I have laying around!  Imagine a guitar amp with a viewing window in front? 

I actually did some first hand testing on the Line 6 and Behringer modeling pre-amps... Check out this thread on Thom's website;

http://audiophools.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5

Glenn said:

Don't let advertising fool you into thinking a line 6 modeling preamp can sound exactly like a tweed amp. That's false hype.

I never used a Line 6 amp. I'm basing that on people I know that use them and tube amps. Are you kidding me? I'm a traditionalist! I'm still working on a design that will incorporate an 829B in the output of an amplifier. They are cheap, plentiful, and have been used in audio service. I haven't a clue as to how one (or two) would respond in a guitar amp but I know they would have the audiophools drooling over it

[W3SLK]

Glenn said:

An 829B triode guitar amp? VERY COOL!!!

I'm pretty sure the 829B is a dual tetrode but with the separate plate pins coming out the top, it would make it pretty buzzardly though. As for the audiophool thread, I think you are right but once again it comes down to what the musician prefers. Incidentally, one of my co-workers told me that Gibson came out with a small 5 watt class A amp that shatters glass . He said that it has just an ON/OFF switch and that's all! It seems to be the thing now. Even my instructor is hitting the road with his little 15 watt Fender Champ and just miking it.

[Paul, K2ORC]

Glenn said:

An 829B triode guitar amp? VERY COOL!!!

I'm pretty sure the 829B is a dual tetrode but with the separate plate pins coming out the top, it would make it pretty buzzardly though. As for the audiophool thread, I think you are right but once again it comes down to what the musician prefers. Incidentally, one of my co-workers told me that Gibson came out with a small 5 watt class A amp that shatters glass . He said that it has just an ON/OFF switch and that's all! It seems to be the thing now. Even my instructor is hitting the road with his little 15 watt Fender Champ and just miking it.

It's single ended triodes Mike.  I had the page below bookmarked for a while because I've got a few 829Bs sitting downstairs.  My solid state Kenwood stereo amplifier crapped out a few weeks ago, and I've been thinking about replacing it with a homebrew.

I know the discussion here's about guitar amps, but the 829B is a cool tube and they're still available at fair prices.   Use this site as a jumping off point.
http://www.pmillett.com/829b_amplifier.htm

[W3SLK]

I don't want to get into a pissing match but the 829B is a dual pentode and not a triode. It has a separate control grid and plates but shares the cathode, screen grid & suppressor grid. Check out his stereo schematic, (which by the way is cool)

http://www.pmillett.com/images/829b.PDF

[Paul, K2ORC]

I don't want to get into a pissing match but the 829B is a dual pentode and not a triode. It has a separate control grid and plates but shares the cathode, screen grid & suppressor grid. Check out his stereo schematic, (which by the way is cool)

http://www.pmillett.com/images/829b.PDF

Mike, I don't know where my head's at.  The tube itself, I agree I think with your first description.  I suppose it was the design I was thinking about.  Cool, I agree, which is why I've had an eye on it.

[W2JBL]

 forgot to add to the poll when i first posted- i play bass too. i think Nick KG2IR also made a living playing bass at one time.  add Bob K1KBW- keyboards and guitar. Jamie KF2VM-guitar, Tim WA1HLR- electric nose...

[kc3ol]

I play trombone in a swing band and also play tuba in a dixieland band.
I am amazed at how many AMers are musicians.

Ted, KC3OL
http://www.kc3ol.dynip.com

[WD8BIL]

Guitar (rhythem mostly),Harmonica (blues,jazz and country), sax (learning).
 

[wavebourn]

Hey, we who play more than one instrument dominate in the pool!

[W3SLK]

Tolly said:

Hey, we who play more than one instrument dominate in the pool!

Just don't 'PEE' in it!

[Ed W1XAW]

Here's one of the all time best, small, tube amps ever made. It's a Marshall Studio 15. Extremely simple design, three 12AX7's and a pair of 6V6's driving a single 12" Celestion speaker... that's it! They only produced them for a few years... grab one if you can find it! Only 15 watts but can sound like 100w when you crank it up. I've had mine for about 20 years now and I'd love to find another one!..

There are a number of knockoffs these days that use that same basic arrangement. If you find one, Ed, I would recommend buying up some spare bottles at your friendly local hamfester. 6V6s, 6L6s, and even 12AX7s are going for stupid amounts of money online.

Or, for that matter, you could homebrew one out of your own 12AX7s and 6L-or-V6s. Just gotta find the right outpoot iron and speaker. Everything else is junkbox parts for us hams

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

Hi,  I neglected to mention that I have an old Stromberg Carslon PA that has 2 12AX7s and 2 6L6's.  I feed it into a single 10" Newcomb PA speaker.  I sometimes use it at low volumes as a clean practice rig for practicing scales etc.  This afternoon I decided to try opening it up a bit and was surprised to hear very nice warm distortion with great harmonics.  It's far too loud for playing in the house like that so I can see where a pair of 6v6's would work better.  I actually have a small Grommes PA with 6V6's that NE1S fixed up for me.  Next time there is time in the weekend I'll try wiring the PA speaker to the 6V6 amp and see what king of tone it has.  I tried it with a smaller speaker before and it fell all apart as the volume went up.  Interesting though as I have to agree that the distortion the 6L6 rig runs seems preferable to the Digitec and Boss emulations I have here. 

Very nice to see that so many AMers are musicians.  I'm doing far more music than radio these days but I usually have a receiver on in the background.  Whereas I only started with music a few years ago its slow going but it has quickly become my favorite hobby.  It seems most people that answered the pole have played since teen years.  Any other beginners out there?

Nice stash of tubes here except the 6L6's. 

Very 73 de W1XAW

[wavebourn]

I still did not finish my 6x6L6 guitar amp... Recently donated my Ibanez to a 12 years' old kid who dreamed of an electric guitar. But I'll defenitely finish the amp soon. Also, I have in mind a hybrid amp, with switching power supply, FET output, and tube preamp. It will be light and powerful. The preamp will have a small transformer for real overdrive distortilons.

[W1RKW]

Tolly,
That's really a nice thing to do, giving a guitar to a youngster.  You should feel good about that.  It's very a nice gesture.  That kid will remember that for a long time and hopefully he'll do the same sometime in the future to another aspiring musician.  It's nice to see people do things like that.  That's cool!!
Bob

[wavebourn]

Thanks Bob,
but unfortunately now he's not dreaming of it anymore; he descovered that it is a thorough work to learn how to play guitar.

[WA3VJB]

B-3/122
Rhodes 73
Harp

[W1RKW]

Thanks Bob,
but unfortunately now he's not dreaming of it anymore; he descovered that it is a thorough work to learn how to play guitar.

Practice Practice Practice.  I remember my early days as a teen practicing.  But I also remember being an impatient kid too.  I wanted to know it quickly and didn't want to practice. Practice seemed like to much work.  It was difficult but I kept practicing and now I can't put the thing down.  It's become a part of me.