Radon reduction anyone?

[Glenn K2KL]

Our new home in NC was tested several times for radon levels, once it came out over the EPA limit, another time below... We'll probably have a radon reduction system installed when we move in...

I've done some reasearch online but was wondering if anyone here has experience or thoughts on these reduction systems,

a hams eye view?

Thanks.

[W1RKW]

Hi Glen,

With modern homes becoming more fuel effecient and air tight it's important to test for radon.  If you go to the USGS or the EPA's websites (the EPA's seems more detailed) and search under radon there are webpages that show the concentrations of radon throughout the US.

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/radon/zonemap.html
http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/radon/rnus.html

My wife and I moved into our new home about 3 years ago.  We had it built.  I was informed during the building process that the house would undergo a radon test as part of the building inspection.  The test was done and was nearly zero (thankfully).  I was told that it was possible that the level could change and periodic testing should be done.  I haven't done any testing since we moved in and have been thinking of having it done since I have sealed up several air leaks I have found in the basement area and sealed all the basement windows in an effort to reduce heating and cooling cost. I'm also thinking of doing the testing since I practically live in the basement because the electronics lab and radio station is located there.

In addition to testing the air in the home one should test the water supply into the home if one has a private well. Concentrations of radon can be found in ground water in those zones that are prone to radon.

As far as a reduction and removal systems goe I don't know much about them since I haven't had to go down that road at least yet.

[Glenn K2KL]

Hi (Bob?)

Thanks. I've been to those sites, the EPA recommended saftey limit is 4 our place was tested once at 6 and then again a 3.2, so we'll be installing a system, probably a sub floor fan suction type that sucks out the radon gas from the soil under the basement floor and vents it up through a PVC pipe that exits above the roof. We could have passed on this house for another with a lower radon test level, but from what we've read, the levels can be reduced quite a bit and we felt this house is worth the effort and expense. As you mentioned, sealing up the basement will be part of the process as well. The hamshack will be upstairs but I'll be spending plenty of time down in the basement couse the workshop will be there (and also future home of my very large 1/32 scale slotcar track.  

Hi Glen,

With modern homes becoming more fuel effecient and air tight it's important to test for radon.  If you go to the USGS or the EPA's websites (the EPA's seems more detailed) and search under radon there are webpages that show the concentrations of radon throughout the US.

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/radon/zonemap.html
http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/radon/rnus.html

My wife and I moved into our new home about 3 years ago.  We had it built.  I was informed during the building process that the house would undergo a radon test as part of the building inspection.  The test was done and was nearly zero (thankfully).  I was told that it was possible that the level could change and periodic testing should be done.  I haven't done any testing since we moved in and have been thinking of having it done since I have sealed up several air leaks I have found in the basement area and sealed all the basement windows in an effort to reduce heating and cooling cost. I'm also thinking of doing the testing since I practically live in the basement because the electronics lab and radio station is located there.

In addition to testing the air in the home one should test the water supply into the home if one has a private well. Concentrations of radon can be found in ground water in those zones that are prone to radon.

As far as a reduction and removal systems goe I don't know much about them since I haven't had to go down that road at least yet.

[KA8WTK]

Hmmm ......... Radon gas........Found in the ground........
Found in caves........Early man lived in caves...........

RADON! Catalyst of Evolution! Intelligence Increaser!

Well, maybe not. Take a look around.................

[Jeff 'OGM]

Not to trivialize the effects of any radioactive gasses seeping into anyone's tightly sealed up house, but the problem of radon in any area is resolved with ventilation.  "Radon abatement systems" are sold on the idea that you can keep your house all sealed up tight, while yet magically ventilating the basement to get rid of the horrific radioactive gasses.

Somebody sold the previous owner of my house on this fear factor, and the "system" pretty much rendered the whole basement useless for anything but a laundry room and dead storage.  This, upon radon levels under 5 picocuries per liter.

I ended up tearing the whole mess out, since I was getting test results of 3 to 4 picocuries per liter after leaving the system turned off for a couple of weeks, test results of 3 to 4 picocuries per liter with the whole thing removed, and then, magically, test results of 3 to 4 picocuries per liter out in my back yard on the picnic table!

Jeff
KA1OGM

[John K5PRO]

Depending on when it is measured, my house has >4 (more like 8) in the lower level brick floor area, and in summer it is nil, as I have a lot of windows open when I am home, esp at night. If you read the information from EPA, the magic number 4 is based on a certain # of people developing cancer if they live in that space for a long time, many dozens of years. It would seem to me that spending $$ to try and lower the level to a solid 2 or 3 pC/L when it is hovering around 4 now, is assinine. Save you money for more worthwhile endeavors. This is similar to the fear of PCBs (>50 ppm) and Arsenic in treated wood for decks. People freak out and run, and don't realize that the levels are incredibly small, and that chances of actually ingesting it or even having ill effects when you are 70 are statistically improbable.

I have been reading IAEA Safety Series 43, which is "Manual on Radiological Safety in Uranium and Thorium Mines and Mills" for a different reason. Those people DO have to worry about this. Homeowners ,though, are putting cash in wheelbarrows for abatement companies to roll them away.

[W1RKW]

Glenn, you 're making me jealous. I'd love to have a large slot car  track in my basement but my wife has taken up half the basement with her junk which she says is more valuable then my radio junk and trains. Go figure ;-)

Like some of the others have mentioned, I don't know what level can be considered unsafe.  I've lived in the same county which is essentially labeled red by the EPA and yet I'm a healthy 45 year old. I'm a cave dweller. I have hung out in my basement for years.  My company gives free checkups and physicals and I probably get more radiation from the few chest x-rays they've given me than the radon gas I may have been breathing over the years but I'm AOK. At least for now, knock on wood.

Hi (Bob?)

Thanks. I've been to those sites, the EPA recommended saftey limit is 4 our place was tested once at 6 and then again a 3.2, so we'll be installing a system, probably a sub floor fan suction type that sucks out the radon gas from the soil under the basement floor and vents it up through a PVC pipe that exits above the roof. We could have passed on this house for another with a lower radon test level, but from what we've read, the levels can be reduced quite a bit and we felt this house is worth the effort and expense. As you mentioned, sealing up the basement will be part of the process as well. The hamshack will be upstairs but I'll be spending plenty of time down in the basement couse the workshop will be there (and also future home of my very large 1/32 scale slotcar track.  8)

[Glenn K2KL]

Hi Jeff;

How did the abatement system you removed make the basement useless except for laundry and storage? If you measured 3 to 4 ppl outdoors, I would seriously question the method of measurement.

Not to trivialize the effects of any radioactive gasses seeping into anyone's tightly sealed up house, but the problem of radon in any area is resolved with ventilation.  "Radon abatement systems" are sold on the idea that you can keep your house all sealed up tight, while yet magically ventilating the basement to get rid of the horrific radioactive gasses.

Somebody sold the previous owner of my house on this fear factor, and the "system" pretty much rendered the whole basement useless for anything but a laundry room and dead storage.  This, upon radon levels under 5 picocuries per liter.

I ended up tearing the whole mess out, since I was getting test results of 3 to 4 picocuries per liter after leaving the system turned off for a couple of weeks, test results of 3 to 4 picocuries per liter with the whole thing removed, and then, magically, test results of 3 to 4 picocuries per liter out in my back yard on the picnic table!

Jeff
KA1OGM

[Glenn K2KL]

Interesting comments from everyone.. Yes, I have read the EPA information and I'm not scared to the point of running but statements like radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer right behind smoking, 30,000 deaths a year, is certainly cause for some concern.  I agree  spending money to lower the level from 4pC/L to 2 or 3 may be a waste, but how much money are we talking about? If I am able to lower the level from it's high point of 6.3pC/L down to 1pC/L isn't that worth the effort? I think it is.

Regarding abatement systems, I'm sure there are scam artists taking advantage of peoples fears. You need to be an educated consumer. The first thing I plan on doing when I get down there is purchase some electronic measurement devices like this;

http://www.radon.biz/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=898

Place one in the basement, another in the bedroom and check the levels over time before investing in an abatement system.

Depending on when it is measured, my house has >4 (more like in the lower level brick floor area, and in summer it is nil, as I have a lot of windows open when I am home, esp at night. If you read the information from EPA, the magic number 4 is based on a certain # of people developing cancer if they live in that space for a long time, many dozens of years. It would seem to me that spending $$ to try and lower the level to a solid 2 or 3 pC/L when it is hovering around 4 now, is assinine. Save you money for more worthwhile endeavors. This is similar to the fear of PCBs (>50 ppm) and Arsenic in treated wood for decks. People freak out and run, and don't realize that the levels are incredibly small, and that chances of actually ingesting it or even having ill effects when you are 70 are statistically improbable.

I have been reading IAEA Safety Series 43, which is "Manual on Radiological Safety in Uranium and Thorium Mines and Mills" for a different reason. Those people DO have to worry about this. Homeowners ,though, are putting cash in wheelbarrows for abatement companies to roll them away.

[WA1GFZ]

My old boss had a problem so he punched a hole in the basement floor
and slid a 3 inch PVC pipe into it. The pipe went up throught the roof so natural convection pulled air from under the slab. He just had to seal the hole around the pipe as it went through the slab. That was all it took to make his levels dive. My concrete guy used 6 mil plastic under our slab so nothing comes up. Very dry basement. I coated the outside of the concrete walls with a thick layer of tar to seal them.
This is a problem in tight houses.  ... .-.

[John K5PRO]

I checked the website for the Radon Store. I am very curious about how the electronic  detectors work out, as radon is not easily detected using conventional GM (geiger-mueller) tubes, and scintillation detectors are expensive for alpha monitoring. The alpha track detector that they offer is much more reliable and sensitive, for long term radon testing at home. For short term, like a week, the activated carbon canister is most effective, if it is shipped for analysis promptly. They are very cheap, used to be found at hardware stores.

Radon itself is not the hazard of most concern, it is the three daugher products. They are as a result of radioactive decay series, and they have typically 30 minutes to 3 day half-life - I believe. They lodge in lung tissue, attach to dust particles,       buggers that they are. Also, they do what is called 'plating out' onto surfaces which then become contaminated. They are what normally registers on a sensitive alpha detector, also they may produce gammas or betas which can be detected also.

I learned a neat trick to demonstrate this. Take a kids balloon, charge it up with your cat, your hair, a carpet, until it has an electrostatic charge. Then leave it sitting or hanging in your radon-rich atmosphere (basement or living area). After 30 minutes (usually enough) you deflate it. If you have a GM (geiger) counter, it will indicate the elevated levels of the daughters which have gotten attracted to the ballon and stuck there when it was deflated.

Whatever you do, don't change white gas lantern mantles if you want a radiation-free lifestyle, avoid flights at 30,000 feet, don't smoke, and don't get chest Xrays (or any Xrays). Then you will only suffer from the normal background dose for your area of the country, which is around 350 mRem/year where I live at a mile above sea level in NM (near Los Alamos).

[Glenn K2KL]

I checked the website for the Radon Store. I am very curious about how the electronic  detectors work out, as radon is not easily detected using conventional GM (geiger-mueller) tubes, and scintillation detectors are expensive for alpha monitoring. The alpha track detector that they offer is much more reliable and sensitive, for long term radon testing at home. For short term, like a week, the activated carbon canister is most effective, if it is shipped for analysis promptly. They are very cheap, used to be found at hardware stores.

Hi John;

Perhaps the electronic device (pro-series detector) uses the method you describe where a static charged surface is used to gather the particles and a GM tube does the detection?

Radon itself is not the hazard of most concern, it is the three daugher products. They are as a result of radioactive decay series, and they have typically 30 minutes to 3 day half-life - I believe. They lodge in lung tissue, attach to dust particles, buggers that they are. Also, they do what is called 'plating out' onto surfaces which then become contaminated. They are what normally registers on a sensitive alpha detector, also they may produce gammas or betas which can be detected also.

I see the store also sells active air filters for homes, they claim the filters will catch the dust particles which the daughter products attach to. I'm interested in the "plating out" you mentioned, I assume you mean the walls of a basement then become radioactive? which I also assume isn't a problem like the airborne particles that can get lodged in your lungs.

I learned a neat trick to demonstrate this. Take a kids balloon, charge it up with your cat, your hair, a carpet, until it has an electrostatic charge. Then leave it sitting or hanging in your radon-rich atmosphere (basement or living area). After 30 minutes (usually enough) you deflate it. If you have a GM (geiger) counter, it will indicate the elevated levels of the daughters which have gotten attracted to the ballon and stuck there when it was deflated.

Whatever you do, don't change white gas lantern mantles if you want a radiation-free lifestyle, avoid flights at 30,000 feet, don't smoke, and don't get chest Xrays (or any Xrays). Then you will only suffer from the normal background dose for your area of the country, which is around 350 mRem/year where I live at a mile above sea level in NM (near Los Alamos).

You seem to be very knowldegable in this area John, do you really think I'm wasting my time with this? or should I be trying to reduce the levels as much as possible? I'm 50 years old and will be moving into this house very soon, most likely living there for the rest of my life.

Thank you again for the useful info John.

[Glenn K2KL]

Hi Frank;

What your boss did with the pipe is one of the abatement methods used to reduce the radon levels. An even more effective system would be one that uses a fan inside the pipe to increase the gas suction from the soil.
Did he have cinder block walls in his basement?

My old boss had a problem so he punched a hole in the basement floor
and slid a 3 inch PVC pipe into it. The pipe went up throught the roof so natural convection pulled air from under the slab. He just had to seal the hole around the pipe as it went through the slab. That was all it took to make his levels dive. My concrete guy used 6 mil plastic under our slab so nothing comes up. Very dry basement. I coated the outside of the concrete walls with a thick layer of tar to seal them.
This is a problem in tight houses.  ... .-.

[John K5PRO]

Hi Glen
I don't want to downplay the risk of radiation exposure from the daughter products of Radon. However, i do believe that the statistical chances for lung cancer are pretty miniscule when you get below 4 pC/L.

If you don't smoke at all, then about 2 people will get lung cancer out of a thousand living in that space for a lifetime (>30 years i think it is). I am not certain but I think it means staying in the space the entire time, while we actually don't spend all our time in it.

With 2 pC/L that number is halved to 1 person. With 8 pC/L it is about 3 people. So you can see the diminishing return on your investment. But a lot of people do play it safe and spend the money to minimize any risk. I just have to mention the odds above, and that there are plenty of places to get lung cancer besides those low doses of Radon and its products. Tobacco smoking, second hand smoke, high dust and particulate environments, working on brake linings, working in mines, dealing with fiberglass insulation, all of these can up your risk as well, of diseases of the respiratory system including cancer in some. And then there are all those other cancers, from epoxy vapors, burnt hamburgers, PCB transformer and capacitor oil, and -- you get the picture.

I just checked my records and my living room, downstairs in a sunken area with brick floor, it was 11 pC/L in 2004 taken during closed up cold Feb week. Years ago it was 8. These were using activated carbon. For the heck of it, and because I am researching this stuff for another hobby, which is exploring caves underground, I am going to get an alpha track going as well as having some carbon traps as well. I will try and see what my home reads now, with all the summer air/windows open at night when I am home.

I don't think I am ready to remediate my home for readings like 8 or 11 if that is only during a few months of the year, which means an aggregrate time of maybe 50 years or more. BTW, I am nearly same age as you.

If you can get the abatement system without spending a huge amt, and that includes the power to run it over the long haul, then you have to weigh the benefits of doing it versus taking the chances. Let me know what you finally decide. I think its almost worth a coin toss myself.

PS, I do work at a proton accelerator, so we have a lot higher radiation risk at work to deal with.

[Glenn K2KL]

Hi John;

Thanks again for the great info and reply. I'll do the measurements when I get down there and decide at that point, I'll try the electronic device and the alpha track and carbon canisters as you suggest.

Hi Glen
I don't want to downplay the risk of radiation exposure from the daughter products of Radon. However, i do believe that the statistical chances for lung cancer are pretty miniscule when you get below 4 pC/L.

If you don't smoke at all, then about 2 people will get lung cancer out of a thousand living in that space for a lifetime (>30 years i think it is). I am not certain but I think it means staying in the space the entire time, while we actually don't spend all our time in it.

With 2 pC/L that number is halved to 1 person. With 8 pC/L it is about 3 people. So you can see the diminishing return on your investment. But a lot of people do play it safe and spend the money to minimize any risk. I just have to mention the odds above, and that there are plenty of places to get lung cancer besides those low doses of Radon and its products. Tobacco smoking, second hand smoke, high dust and particulate environments, working on brake linings, working in mines, dealing with fiberglass insulation, all of these can up your risk as well, of diseases of the respiratory system including cancer in some. And then there are all those other cancers, from epoxy vapors, burnt hamburgers, PCB transformer and capacitor oil, and -- you get the picture.

I just checked my records and my living room, downstairs in a sunken area with brick floor, it was 11 pC/L in 2004 taken during closed up cold Feb week. Years ago it was 8. These were using activated carbon. For the heck of it, and because I am researching this stuff for another hobby, which is exploring caves underground, I am going to get an alpha track going as well as having some carbon traps as well. I will try and see what my home reads now, with all the summer air/windows open at night when I am home.

I don't think I am ready to remediate my home for readings like 8 or 11 if that is only during a few months of the year, which means an aggregrate time of maybe 50 years or more. BTW, I am nearly same age as you.

If you can get the abatement system without spending a huge amt, and that includes the power to run it over the long haul, then you have to weigh the benefits of doing it versus taking the chances. Let me know what you finally decide. I think its almost worth a coin toss myself.

PS, I do work at a proton accelerator, so we have a lot higher radiation risk at work to deal with.

[WA1GFZ]

Hi Glen,
My boss had poured concrete but was sitting on rock. The area is known for high concentrations. Sturbridge Ma. on Lead Mine Lake. They mined graphite many years ago in that area. Convection was enough to bring the levels down. A fan would have been his next step.
He had a very tight house so it  concentrated in the basement. fc