Battery Technology

[Opcom]

I'm always looking for secondary storage with ever increasing capacity. Batteries  - where to even start. I like AGM lead acid the best, but there are many kinds and I think the so called ultracapacitor*** should be considered as well because of its characteristics.

Today I saw a miracle - a smartphone sized battery device that started a car**. This was of course on TV at 3:30 AM. The Lithium Cobalt battery - but these, on reputable web sites*, carry a warning of not discharging faster than its C rating. So, another lie on TV.. but never mind the charms of science fiction.

My questions is, what kind of battery do you prefer for portable use and why?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_battery_types
* http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/whats_the_best_battery
* http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
** https://www.tryminimax.com/?mid=7896691&otsrid=f8fe3a02-9e86-44e7-b49c-68e9e5647faa
*** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
*** http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/
*** https://gigaom.com/2011/07/12/how-ultracapacitors-work-and-why-they-fall-short/

[KJ4OLL]

I am currently using Nimh batteries, made in Japan, for all the portable and occasional use equipment.
Previously tried Li-Ion, but all the brands I tried discharged in place, w/o use.
Stopped using Alkalines just due to cost and having to stock spares.
The Japanese Nihm hold up for long use, and recharge nicely, so far.

[Opcom]

I remember NiMH from my time at Sony Broadcast. They were preferred by many professionals.

[KD6VXI]

LiFePo and LiPo.

Check them,  might work for you.   Large amounts of storage and LiPo has amazing discharge rates.   You can accidentally weld with one.

--Shane
KD6VXI

[WO4K]

Last summer I did a lot of online research to determine which deep-cycle battery would be best for the off-grid 12 v LED solar-panel-recharged electrical system I  designed for my wife's family's remote cabin. I ended up buying a 178 AH (no typo) Energy Cell 200NC, a nano-carbon AGM made by Outback Power. An amazing battery that operated the cabin's LED lights and my FT-857D portable rig (at 50 watts). More about it can be found at altestore.com. But at 131 lbs and $500 its not exactly what one would want to take to the park for an afternoon of QSOs.

Frank WO4K

[WB5IRI]

I use some 4 AH LiFePo4 cells for my portable station. Eight cells in series will power my FT817 and THP 100W amp all weekend long and never drop below 13 volts.
http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4/LiFeMnPO4-Batteries.aspx

[W2PFY]

I use some 4 AH LiFePo4 cells for my portable station. Eight cells in series will power my FT817 and THP 100W amp all weekend long and never drop below 13 volts.

How are you doing that? With 8 in series at 3.2 volts each, I come up with 25.6 volts?

Maybe I am missing something here? I thought most transceivers ran on 13.8 volts and military stuff approximately 24-28 volts. Maybe you are running them in series parallel which would give you twice the ampere hour capacity and an open circuit voltage of 12.80 volts per the sheet you supplied. Well anyhow I see that you are running them in series so I am puzzled      

[M0VRF]

Folk are still using NiMH!

LiFePo4 are fare superior and weigh far less etc.

[W1RKW]

I've converted over most of the battery operated devices here to NiMH, specifically to the Panasonic Eneloop brand. Tried several other brands but over a short time most didn't charge/discharge equally when paired up even with a smart charger so some quality issues there. Couldn't be bothered with trying to match.  So far the Eneloops have done well going on over a year with very little issue. The other thing about the Eneloops they seem to have a terminal voltage higher than 1.2v even if sitting for a period of time which is a plus for voltage sensitive devices.  I charged up a set for the scanner 3 days ago and all 4 are sitting between 1.418V to 1.411V open circuit.  I have some Tenergy's that rest between 1.2 and 1.3V.  The Eneloops are pricey but the cost is offset very quickly after a few charging cycles.  Well worth the $ IMO.

[WB5IRI]

I use some 4 AH LiFePo4 cells for my portable station. Eight cells in series will power my FT817 and THP 100W amp all weekend long and never drop below 13 volts.

How are you doing that? With 8 in series at 3.2 volts each, I come up with 25.6 volts?

Maybe I am missing something here? I thought most transceivers ran on 13.8 volts and military stuff approximately 24-28 volts. Maybe you are running them in series parallel which would give you twice the ampere hour capacity and an open circuit voltage of 12.80 volts per the sheet you supplied. Well anyhow I see that you are running them in series so I am puzzled      

Sorry, I misspoke. I use 8 cells, 4 each in series, then each group of 4 in parallel to up the amperage. Will run a looong, loong, time. These folks will sell you everything you need for building large packs, including charging protection and connecting hardware: http://www.headway-headquarters.com/

Doug

[WB5IRI]

Folk are still using NiMH!

LiFePo4 are fare superior and weigh far less etc.

And not prone to catch fire like regular Lithium Ion batteries.

Doug

[W2PFY]

Thanks Doug fer clearing that up. Lately I have been buying some battery powered tools such as drills ets. I chose to buy Ryobi from HD while they may not be the best and since I am not a contractor, they will serve my purposes. I was surprised to learn that the Lithium batteries they use and apparently all other manufactures of the type of battery supplied will deteriorate on their own regardless if you are using them or not due the chemical makeup of the battery. This has always been a problem with all other battery technologies in power tools. My question is, approximately how long will these batteries last in average use?

Another problem I may never have is how long the batteries last in electric cars?

I had, before I retired sold, serviced large batteries of the lead acid type, some as heavy as 4400 pounds each, where three batteries were needed per forklift truck for a three shift operations in many different factory applications. When lead acid batteries get to a certain age cells go bad and they can be replaced but predicting how much more life was in a battery was always a gamble after a certain point when trying to justify a very expensive repair to the end user.

So my point is that when it comes to electric cars with aging batteries, you can look forward to very expensive repairs when cells start to go bad in them. The only way it would make sense to me to have an electric  car new or used, is leasing them. The repairs will kill you and it's not a road I would want to go down...What do you think?
  

[KD6VXI]

If you bought 'homeowner grade'  ryobi (Blue case and black batteries with yellow stumps)  take it back.   Those are Nice Cad and the bottom of the barrel.   Harbor freight lasts JUST as long (or longer)  and costs less.

If you bought the lime green and grey stuff (new,  modern),  its just as good as anything else on the market.   Or better.

I bought my ryobi set in '08, at Xmas.  It came with two 4AH batteries.   I still use it.   I've driven over it in a 4 wheel drive Tahoe and damaged the charger (ripped the cord in two)  as well as the battery holder in the flashlight.

They both still work.  I did replace the cord

I bought a ryobi drill and impact combo for fathers day '2014.  My batteries,  the originals,  had finally died,  I could justify the two new 2 Ah and charger the new set came with,  and I could put the included drill in my shop with the old original batteries.  They worked,  but like old nights cad,  wouldn't hold a charge.

The next year,  I bought a 2 pack of 4 Ah batteries.   I put them in service that year.

All batteries are still going strong.   The original '08 set holds a charge for about 10 minutes, if that.   The 2 Ah that came with the drill / impact set have seen daily,  4 day a week use (minimum)  on 110 degree roofs (I manage a solar installation company in Bakersfield,  CA....   It's up to 135 to 140 on a roof.   I have boots that have delaminated from standing in place too long).

Though anecdotal,  I saw about 3 and a half years of near daily usage before the first set started to not hold a charge.

The ryobi does NOT use as high a peak discharge I battery as Milwaukee or Dewalt,  etc.   THIS is the reason they don't have as much torque.   Rebuild your old batteries with Sony packs and they will break your wrist when they stall.  I appreciate the lower peak I batteries,  as my work is mostly aluminum and stainless.

--Shane
KD6VXI


ADDED:  I will NOT wax poetic or praise ryobi for their chargers.   They and Milwaukee are the WORST offenders of RFI.   The ryobi destroys HF from tens of yards away,  on seperate electric systems.   The Milwaukee completely obliterated broadcast FM.   It may have been defective but wasn't mine,  so I couldn't take it back.   Oddly enough,  it worked fine for an fm radio running in batteries.  The k they would have figured that one out

[KI4YAN]

You are aware that Milwaukee and Ryobi are both made by Techtronic Industries, Hong Kong. Also, all the Orange RIDGID brand tools found in Home Depot are made by Techtronic Industries, on exclusive contract-Emerson only has Metabo make four benchtop tools for them-and I'm not too sure if they are still made by Metabo or are now made by TTI, too.

Emerson still makes the grey-case RIDGID brand plumbing tools, wet/dry vacs, and I think that's it now.

Porter-Cable, DeWalt, Delta, are all owned by Black&Decker.

Stanley Tool Works Owns:

Black&Decker (and all subsidiaries)
Bostitch
PROTO
MAC Tools
FACOM
Stanley Hand Tools
Blackhawk Mechanics Tools
Caterpillar Mechanics Tools
Challenger Mechanics Tools
Husky Mechanics Tools
John Deere Mechanics Tools
Martin Mechanics Tools
Master Mechanic Mechanics Tools
Stanley Mechanics Tools
Wilde Mechanics Tools
And I *think* they bought Craftsman tools now too.

Anyway, as far as battery tech, I am converting over to nickle-iron cells for backup batteries. Been making my own-it's pretty easy to do and get good, safe results from. If you're not into building your own batteries, there are russian-made Nickle-Iron cells on Ebay 10 for 100 bucks right now. (enough to make a 12V battery) Just add your own potassium hydroxide solution to activate them.